Natalie Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I think before people start posting sweeping generalisations that there is no such thing as poverty or offensive comments such as "id only have the Job channel on between 8am and 5pm, still theres always plenty cash for the drink and Fags," they should bear the phrase 'there but for the grace of god' in mind. As result of being unemployed I am currently living well beyond the poverty line. I receive £67.50 a week JSA and £16 a week Council Tax Benefit- that is it. My mortgage is £263 a month- I can only pay 50% of it so am well into arrears and have to persuade the mortgage company each month not to commence legal action against me. I have no water as I had a broken pipe in December 2010 and can't afford to get it repaired. No water means I cannot use my central heating which is not a problem as such as I have jumpers and a quilt. This also means that I cannot use my washing machine. It is either a laundrette or the kindness of my mum letting me use her machine. I can put my gas fire on when absolutely desperate but that costs money and am being threatened with being cut off by the gas company. The water company took me to court because they would not accept my offer of paying the water rates.. True I have the internet but since my broadband was cut off- along with satellite tele which I have had for about 15 years- I have a PAYG mobile dongle. My mobile is also payg but I can't afford credit. I do have a car- which I have had since 1995 and bought and paid for whilst at work but I cannot afford to put fuel in it. I have to pay car insurance on it by law- whether I use it or not. I also have to spend money on the TV licence which I have to have by law. I am left with approx £80 a month after paying 50% of my mortgage, car insurance and TV licence- out of this I have to find money for food, water, gas, electric, internet dongle. Fortunately I do not have a big appetite so only tend to eat on alternate days- and when I say eat I only eat once in the day. I have never smoked, drunk alcohol or taken drugs (despite what the media says the likes of me are doing). My only 'treats' are the internet dongle and Rail Express each month and I still feel incredibly guilty at getting these. For the record I left school at 16 and have worked in the public services until the age of 43- working nights, days, weekends, holidays etc- almost 20 year's of that as a nurse caring for other people's relatives. I have paid tax and National Insurance in that time. I think that I am more than a little entitled to receiving some help from the state whilst I am in this temporary position which hopefully soon (and things are looking good) will be ended with me obtaining some employment. So please refrain from making sweeping generalisations based on tabloid news reports. Poverty is prevalent in this country- just because you might not be experiencing it yourself doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I truly hope that none of you end up in the situation I am in at present as it certainly no picnic- nor is the constant belittling and offensive journalism that this subject seems to attract in the tabloids. There have truly been times when I have seriously considered swallowing my entire amount of codeine/paracetamol based painkillers but could not do that to my mum. I would not wish my current situation on my worst enemy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggy1953 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Well said Natalie, I'm on Incapacity Benefit of £97.00 pw. I have cancer, but it is controlled with drugs. Yet i have been accused of scrounging off the state. I cant claim any other benefits as my wife works more than 16 hours a week but doesn't earn a fortune. Is poverty alive in Britain ? It most certainley is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 ....I really do want to know what level of deprevation must exist out there so come on you younger, more informed members put me out of my misery so I don't have to shout at the tele when the news is on.... I think you know now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted February 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 9, 2012 There is indeed real poverty around today. But any figure for the number of people in poverty based on a percentage of average income is a ridiculous way of calculating how many are in it. The more the top people get their huge pay rises, the higher the average wage and the higher the number of people in poverty, with no referencing to the cost of living or inability to pay the bills. If some groups of employees take a pay cut or have a pay freeze and average salary stays static or drops, the number of people in poverty based on average pay may actually decrease, even if the individuals concerned haven't changed their circumstances at all. So somebody on a particular income with particular outgoings can drop in and out of poverty depending on other people's incomes. Basing such things on a percentage is just the powers that be playing with numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I believe there are two types of poverty - emotional and material. IMO, emotional poverty (these days) appears to feed off a perceived lack of material items - yet the focus is on material considerations which isn't a good substitute for emotional poverty . You can live without a television, mobile phone etc... but I would consider having a caring entourage fundamentally more important and less stressful...dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I think before people start posting sweeping generalisations that there is no such thing as poverty or offensive comments such as "id only have the Job channel on between 8am and 5pm, still theres always plenty cash for the drink and Fags," they should bear the phrase 'there but for the grace of god' in mind. As result of being unemployed I am currently living well beyond the poverty line. I receive £67.50 a week JSA and £16 a week Council Tax Benefit- that is it. Perhaps someone in a good job who thinks people on benefits are living lives of luxury at the taxpayers' expense will want to swap places with you. Any offers? I very much doubt it. People should try living the reality of benefits rather than the picture panted by the right wing media. Don't forget, it isn't the people in work who are subsidising those on benefits, it the reverse which is true. In an economy which has lost the mass employment manufacturing industries, it is those who are taking a very much reduced cut of the national wealth who enable those who are still in employment to maintain their levels of income. Look at all the industries which have increased profitability by drastically cutting the number of people they employ, meaning that those who keep their jobs can enjoy higher levels of income while those who are no longer required have to live on much less. If instead of reducing the number of employees those businesses had shared out the hours among all their workers income levels would be more equitable but the incomes of those now in work would be lower. How many people in work would support a cut in the working week of say 15% along with the corresponding reduction in income in order to create jobs for those who are unemployed? Very little 'work' actually increases the total wealth of the nation. In fact some, which rely on imported goods or materials but only sell within the UK, can be seen to reduce it. Employment acts predominantly as a means of circulating wealth around the economy rather than creating it. The more people who are outside that circle of wealth the larger the share for those who are within. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted February 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 9, 2012 'Basing such things on a percentage is just the powers that be playing with numbers.' It is all they dare do actually going into the houses where your feet stick to the carpet and the walls are black with mold might be getting too close to the reality of life lived only on benefits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewC Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 For me the most sickening thing is that people that need the social safety net are just voices in the mist drowned out by the critical mass of those that feel the government owes them everything. For every Natalie and Oggy there are several feckless parasites suckling on society's teats. Yes there is poverty in this country. But until we finally grow the gonads to separate the ones that need and deserve the hand up to get back on track, from those that demand to live on the hand out ager contributing nothing to society, nothing will change. I predict a thread lock very soon as this has no alternative but to get very political. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 My advice to all of you concerned about such issues would be to disregard the malevolent, malicious bile that passes for journalism in the UK media. It seems to me that the media today are on a mission to spread as much hatred and anger about certain matters as they can. Some of their content would shame a 1938 copy of the Frankfurter Allegemeine. I have the greatest respect for those of you among our fraternity who are slogging along and surviving under what are clearly the most difficult of circumstances. It's ironic that many of our people are struggling in this way while a massive vanity project takes shape in London's East End and another vulgar Corporate phallic symbol rises above The Square Mile. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 While we still demand that ever increasing numbers of people chase ever decreasing numbers of jobs and penalise those that aren't successful, nothing will change. Classic economic theory is based on three factors of production, land, labour and capital. Mechanisation and automation has removed, or greatly reduced, the role of labour in this equation. You can see the results of this, not only in the numbers of unemployed people but in the higher earnings that those in finance now enjoy. Whereas at one time the owners and financiers of businesses would have had to pay a large labour force, now they need to buy machinery, from other companies owned and financed by other businessmen and financiers. instead of the wealth being distributed among a large number of workers it now remains concentrated in a small number of business owners and financiers. Unless and until this is addressed and an alternative method found of circulating wealth among all the population and not just those who are able to get hold of a job the relative poverty of the earnings of the wealthier members of our society and the poorest will remain and probably worsen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Russ (mines a pint) Posted February 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 10, 2012 It does really come down to a government vs. media thing, They cannot do right for doing wrong. Obviously we hope benefits are going to people who really need them, the government has to do stuff for the population as a whole. There are some benefits which should be better means tested, why for instance do millionaires or top tax ie 40% earners need a state pension, child benefit etc. I work for a living and I dont mind my taxes going to someone less fortunate than myself, I am what is classed as less than the 'average wage' too. I do object to the thought of it going to the kind of people portrayed by the murdoch (and others) media. But I suspect that in reality it isn't? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 There are two separate strands here...... Firstly, the level set to describe Relative Poverty is not particularly a level of income I would describe as a bad income......As a hard working Guard I dont think I reached near such an income without OT or RDW - Infact i dont even come close now....... Secondly, the actual level of welfare payments doesnt really even come close to what is R.P. Its interesting (though not politically!!!! ) to note that the level paid as "sickness" just about scrapes into the reaches of not being RP but "dole" misses by a country mile...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Natalie, have you been to the job centre/ citizens advice bureaux and checked if there are any other benefits you are entitled to, there MUST be some help available for you surely. Have you thought about taking in a lodger, assuming you have a spare room, I know there are lots of people doing that at the moment (I am renting a room as we speak) Otherwise if you have to lose your house (I know it would be awful) what help would be available to you then, surely the council/ housing association would house you? It must be worth looking into, just to see how you can improve your lot, citizens advice would be my first call and tell them everything, I have been to them before and they really helped me get sorted out, they have heard it all before and usually a lot worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted February 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2012 Whilst carefully noting the forum`s guidelines on politics/beliefs etc......... I can`t recall seeing shoeless, 'rickety' waifs, shinning-up chimneys, recently! Regretfully the streets of London do have such children, not doing chimneys, but if you open your eyes they are there, in the shadow of the houses of parliament, on the south bank, they are there. Never surprises me how many people actually walk round with their eyes closed. (No offence D) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2012 My advice to all of you concerned about such issues would be to disregard the malevolent, malicious bile that passes for journalism in the UK media. It seems to me that the media today are on a mission to spread as much hatred and anger about certain matters as they can. Some of their content would shame a 1938 copy of the Frankfurter Allegemeine. I have the greatest respect for those of you among our fraternity who are slogging along and surviving under what are clearly the most difficult of circumstances. It's ironic that many of our people are struggling in this way while a massive vanity project takes shape in London's East End and another vulgar Corporate phallic symbol rises above The Square Mile. Dave. Trying searching for the boat people & both political parties in Australia, where the perception put out by the majority media (one most trust worthy Murdoch empire ), is that Australia has a HUGE illegal immigrant problem. It doesn't, compared to many other countries. Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Natalie, have you been to the job centre/ citizens advice bureaux and checked if there are any other benefits you are entitled to, there MUST be some help available for you surely. Have you thought about taking in a lodger, assuming you have a spare room, I know there are lots of people doing that at the moment (I am renting a room as we speak) Otherwise if you have to lose your house (I know it would be awful) what help would be available to you then, surely the council/ housing association would house you? I am claiming everything I am entitled to. I am single, live on my own with no dependants and in my own house so am not entitled to anything else. Fortunately I have employable skills and all being well should be working again in the next two months so should be able to avoid getting my house repossessed. If I was repossessed I am not classed as vulnerable so am not entitled to a council house/flat- only housing benefit up to a certain level. Regarding a lodger- I have no water at the moment which means no central heating, no bath, no washing machine. Would you come and lodge with me? It is tough at the moment but I can at least now seem some light at the other end of the tunnel and hopefully will soon be able to get on with my life. But there are people who are worse off than me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Good luck with the job hunting, as long as you keep the mortgage lender informed they should be okay, they want the money as its easier than repossessing and selling on. All the nasty comments on here are about people that are unable to work because of their "illness" and so can claim incapacity but can still drop a couple of sprogs out and are then "entitled" to council houses/ benefits etc and have no intention of doing a days work in their pitiful little lives, NOT aimed at people like yourself who are genuinely struggling in these times or people who are genuinely unable to work. Its about time the doctors who sign these scummies as unfit when there is nothing actually wrong with them were brought to book, I could sit there and say all the right things, wince at the right time and be signed off sick if I wanted but I (like yourself) have pride in being a worker and stand on my own 2 feet. A few years ago I was about as far down as it was possible to get (yes I do mean THAT far), I was getting divorced, wife wouldnt let me see the kids, 80 hour weeks to pay CSA, father with incurable lung cancer and 6 months to live, no help because I was working etc, you get the idea and I very nearly did the deed, but at the last minute I thought sod it I can win and have never looked back, I just kept pushing and pushing and got myself a slightly better job and things slowly got better, now (15 years on) I am pretty much set with just the (new) family to move up here where I work now now. Keep going you will get there in the end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arran Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 HI All The trouble with debates like this one is there are the genuine cases that are very hard up, but the debate has become very polarised now in the main stream as the silent majority when they start to speak there minds, mostly born out of frustration with the politicians to get the Can work but wont work brigade out there beds and working. It seems the safety net has turned into rather a comfy seat in-front of the wide screen TV watching Jeremy Kyle. Regards Arran Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 It's all down to definitions: Some such as access to education/healthcare; household income relative to the national average; and more than 2 persons per bedroom have some merit. But others more questionable measures (and these are genuine criteria in various definitions of deprived/underprivelaged applied by different government departments) include: A home with no suplementary TV service (i.e. cable/satelite) No access to a private motor vehicle Unable to afford external entertainment (i.e. cinema/theatre/sports match) at least twice per month [could we include visiting a Model Rail Ex in there I wonder...] Not had an overseas holiday for two years / not had any holiday for over 12 months do not posess a credit card or have access to ther credit facilities Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Many thanks to people for their genuine messages of support- I do appreciate them. Just need to get my macrocytic anaemia sorted out now so I am roaring on all cylinders again. Its my birthday on Wednesday so hopefully it is the start of something positive. Back to my tunnel cliche- I have been in the Severn Tunnel (from the England end) and feel now that I am past Sudbrooke Pumping Station getting ever nearer to Newport... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'd have thought that ANYTHING was better than watching Jeremy Kyle for anyone with more than two brain-cells - even if it involved going to work to avoid that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Its about time the doctors who sign these scummies as unfit when there is nothing actually wrong with them were brought to book, I could sit there and say all the right things, wince at the right time and be signed off sick if I wanted but I (like yourself) have pride in being a worker and stand on my own 2 feet. Do you think? Try actually going through the process of claiming ESA some time and find out just what you have to go through. The system is so skewed to try and make it as hard as possible for those who are not genuine to get through it is almost impossible to get through it even if you have a genuine entitlement. When I first had to claim after a lifetime of never having so much as a day off sick, I was told by the woman from the job centre not to worry when the assessment found me fit to work as they found everyone with my type of health problem fit to work, but to get in touch again and she would send me an appeal form. In the end it was over a year before I reached the tribunal who found me eligible on three separate criteria. In effect I went from the assessment's 0 qualifying points to the tribunal assessing me as 45. The qualifying score is 15. The tribunal told my representative at the appeal that it was wrong that I should ever have been put through the need to appeal. During that year I had to live on the assessment rate of ESA which is around £55 a week. Now I have credit card debts that i can't pay off because I had no other way to pay the bills. Then no sooner has the tribunal upheld my appeal than I get another asseessment form and the whole process starts again. It is nowhere near as simple as getting a doctor to write out a sick note. The assessment basically finds anyone who is alive, with the use of a life-support system if required, as fit for work. You then have to go through the lengthy wait and hope that the tribunal will find in your favour. Having seen the distress of some of those coming out while I waited to go in, it is no easy ride to win an appeal either. Maybe there are those who are supposedly cheating the system but is the answer to that really to make the process of claiming so harsh that it causes very real emotional, health and financial problems for the far greater number of genuine claimants? You can't make people's health problems disappear by making the claiming process more demanding. In a post-industrial society where there is unlikely ever to be anything approaching full employment ever again, I think rather than condemning those who don't want to work we should be grateful to anyone who is willing to opt out of the highly competitive job market in return for the minimal sums of money which they get in benefits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggy1953 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Do you think? Try actually going through the process of claiming ESA some time and find out just what you have to go through.... .Without repeating all your above to save space. You are absolutely spot on. It aint easy. I think the con merchants have been on the system for quite some time when yes all it took was a doctors note, and they are very slowly, painfully slowing, being found out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 In a post-industrial society where there is unlikely ever to be anything approaching full employment ever again, I think rather than condemning those who don't want to work we should be grateful to anyone who is willing to opt out of the highly competitive job market in return for the minimal sums of money which they get in benefits. I love it when people have the power to make me see things in a whole different way Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 .....In a post-industrial society where there is unlikely ever to be anything approaching full employment ever again, I think rather than condemning those who don't want to work we should be grateful to anyone who is willing to opt out of the highly competitive job market in return for the minimal sums of money which they get in benefits. I love it when people have the power to make me see things in a whole different way Quite apart from Natalie's Kakfa-esque experience, I fear her last sentence there may make some people consider methods of population reduction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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