Timber floors on GWR shunters trucks and match trucks.

[brian777999]

The inside of open wagons and the flooring on bolster wagons, loriots, hydras etc. was left as unpainted timber. What about the flooring on shunters trucks and match trucks ? I usually paint the floor a natural timber colour then add a wood grain effect but now I am wondering if the timber floors may actually have been painted GWR grey as per the rest of the wagon. (It would make things easier if this were the case.)

 

Photographs don't reveal too much as they are not usually taken at a high enough angle to show the floor timbers.

[buffalo]

There was some related discussion here on the old RMweb, though not on shunters' and match trucks. I doubt whether these would have been treated any differently...

 

Nick

[Kenton]

The inside of open wagons and the flooring on bolster wagons, loriots, hydras etc. was left as unpainted timber.

 

Are we so sure of that?

Untreated timber left exposed to the elements deteriorates quite rapidly.

I can see that within closed vans this may have been true as any treatment may have impacted on the produce being carried.

But open wagons would have been more likely to have either been painted or creosoted.

Of course after a period of use and wear the bare wood could have been exposed but even then I would expect them to appear dirty grey/blacked rather than fresh wood look.

More like an excuse for really overdoing the weathering.

[Fat Controller]

Are we so sure of that?

Untreated timber left exposed to the elements deteriorates quite rapidly.

I can see that within closed vans this may have been true as any treatment may have impacted on the produce being carried.

But open wagons would have been more likely to have either been painted or creosoted.

Of course after a period of use and wear the bare wood could have been exposed but even then I would expect them to appear dirty grey/blacked rather than fresh wood look.

More like an excuse for really overdoing the weathering.

Certainly in BR days, wooden planks in both flooring and sides were left untreated and often unpainted. I have seen a photo of an ex-works BR-built Pipe wagon, which has a bare-wood body, except for the patches for the number details. I doubt that any form of creosote would be applied, for fear of contaminating the load. Floors tended to be of oak or similar hardwood, which will last 25 years or more without treatment- the stuff we use in the vineyard has a lifespan of about that, unless someone hits it with a tractor, and that is part buried in damp ground.

The design-life of a wagon body is reckoned to be about 20 years, with the underframe being twice that.

[buffalo]

Are we so sure of that?

No, but see the earlier discussion mentioned in my previous post.

 

Untreated timber left exposed to the elements deteriorates quite rapidly.

As the Fat Controller has pointed out, this was not unseasoned softwood from B&Q. If you have any doubts about the longevity of oak and other hardwoods, take at look at some of the many timber framed buildings around the country, many of which include original timbers dating back as far as the fifteenth century.

 

But open wagons would have been more likely to have either been painted or creosoted.

Creosote is very unlikely though other forms of treatment may have been used. The photographic evidence that I've seen appears to favour bare wood over painting in most cases.

 

Of course after a period of use and wear the bare wood could have been exposed but even then I would expect them to appear dirty grey/blacked rather than fresh wood look.

More like an excuse for really overdoing the weathering.

Indeed, most hardwoods weather to a medium-dark grey which would probably be a bit lighter than the normal GWR wagon grey.

 

Nick

[Kenton]

If you have any doubts about the longevity of oak and other hardwoods, take at look at some of the many timber framed buildings around the country, many of which include original timbers dating back as far as the fifteenth century.

Most, if not all such timbers exposed to the elements that I can recall seeing have been treated in some way and appear very dark brown/black.

 

I still believe, and have not seen anything to the contrary, that bare "new looking" timber would not remain looking that way for very long. The opens and other wagons exposed to the elements including the soot deposits from the hauling engines would have very rapidly taken on a heavily weathered appearance.

So if you are weathering the outside of the wagon to the usual muck covered level don't forget to treat the inside with the same level of dirt.

[Fat Controller]

Most, if not all such timbers exposed to the elements that I can recall seeing have been treated in some way and appear very dark brown/black.

 

I still believe, and have not seen anything to the contrary, that bare "new looking" timber would not remain looking that way for very long. The opens and other wagons exposed to the elements including the soot deposits from the hauling engines would have very rapidly taken on a heavily weathered appearance.

So if you are weathering the outside of the wagon to the usual muck covered level don't forget to treat the inside with the same level of dirt.

To give some idea of the sort of colour wood weathers to on the inside of wagons, here's some examples, albeit from modern vehicles:-

http://ukrailrollingstock.fotopic.net/p19675089.html- the outside of this one's a bit of a mess as well.

http://ukrailrollingstock.fotopic.net/p19675089.html

http://ukrailrollingstock.fotopic.net/p35813717.html

http://ukrailrollingstock.fotopic.net/p56461440.html

The vehicles may be late 20th Century examples, but the bodywork uses (for sides and floor, at least)techniques that would be familiar to a wagon builder at Swindon in the mid-19th.

Lorry floors weather in much the same way- the only time 'new' wood is evident is if the surface is gouged, or if timbers are replaced. Even wood that has just been left stacked outside soon develops it- my fire runs partially on offcuts of seasoned hardwood from the local furniture maker.

[Kenton]

http://ukrailrollingstock.fotopic.net/p35813717.html

That one in particular seems to show the general grime and dirt that I was eluding to. Just trying to get the outside to appear anything like that would be a challenge.

The others seem to be somewhat over exposed or retouched to lighten the interiors. Even so they are far from being the light brown of new wood.

 

I would still wonder if the attitude to "treatment" of wood in modern open wagons is exactly the same ass in earlier periods.

 

Of course we do know that cattle wagons were whitewashed for many years until it was determined as policy not to use white wash on the railways. So at the end of the day as no one could prove any different - it probably doesn't matter.

[The Stationmaster]

It's a long time since I last saw a Shunters' truck/dummy/runner in everyday use but the simple bits to remember were (BR period of course) metalwork painted black, toolbox painted black, foot boards might once have been black(?) but showed no sign of any remaining paint, floor showed no sign of paint or anything else except some oil stains and much of whatever had been carried on it (usually sprags with a grease in various places - and it rubbed off on the floor) and a bit of rust off the couple of 3 link couplings and fishplates which were dumped there ready for use should the need arise.

[Fat Controller]

It's a long time since I last saw a Shunters' truck/dummy/runner in everyday use but the simple bits to remember were (BR period of course) metalwork painted black, toolbox painted black, foot boards might once have been black(?) but showed no sign of any remaining paint, floor showed no sign of paint or anything else except some oil stains and much of whatever had been carried on it (usually sprags with a grease in various places - and it rubbed off on the floor) and a bit of rust off the couple of 3 link couplings and fishplates which were dumped there ready for use should the need arise.

I wonder where the last GWR Shunter's Truck in regular use was? My money would be on Pembrey and Burry Port, where one survived until the yard shut, I believe. Certainly, it was still in regular use in the 1980s.

[br2975]

I'd tend to agree there Brian, from published photographic evidence - and being a long way from HQ !

.

The last one I can recall seeing in Cardiff was at Tyndall Fields during the early - mid 70s whilst snapping a trio of Landore/Margam 08s and an Enparts wagon en-route to Swindon.

.

Brian