D605Eagle Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Just looking at the Rails photo, it appears that the model has the protruding piston tail covers at the top of the buffer beam. Now, I don't know much about 44331, one of the St Rollux 1927/8 lot, but most 4Fs had had these removed and plated over by BR days, let alone by the late crest period. Indeed, many had a replacement buffer beam with no trace of this earlier feature. Perhaps useful for those wanting to backdate to LMS days. I was also a little surprised by what Rails list as "Similar Products" at the bottom of the page -- Thomas, Gordon, James, Emily, Edward... Nick I have a Hornby built tender driver model of 44331 in late crest guise and it doesn't have the tail rods. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Churchill8F Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I know Hornby have to make money back somewhere from the new chassis, but the RRP of the tender drive 4F, R2545 specifically, was around £60 5 years ago. I know prices go up with inflation and that many shops are selling the new loco drive model for £80, but I just feel the work could have been put in elsewhere in Hornby's range. I'd have prefered an all new 4F to match the Bachmann offering, but that's just me. Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I'd have prefered an all new 4F to match the Bachmann offering, but that's just me. Hardly just you, the 4F must be one of the most requested retools, and one of the most likely to find a market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invicta Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I have a Hornby built tender driver model of 44331 in late crest guise and it doesn't have the tail rods. Likewise- also the S&DJR Collectors Centre release from the early 2000s,which didn't have the tailrods either http://www.bandhmodels.com/images/R2148%20a.jpg I get the impression Hornby might not have used the 'tail-rod' version of the bufferbeam moulding at all until reviving it for the new loco-drive release? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted February 28, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 28, 2012 RRP £106.25!!!!!! I must say in the absence of a better RTR 4f I can live with the shortcomings of this loco if it is the right price. A heavy dose of weathering will work wonders, and the running qualities should be good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 There are times when I wish steam outline modellers were as red-hot on detail as their D&E counterparts. Whats wrong with people that they accept this kind of old tat? Reject it and make Hornby do better! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 28, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 28, 2012 I'd have prefered an all new 4F to match the Bachmann offering, but that's just me. Having looked at the new Hornby offering my money will remain in my pocket and my old Airfix one will soldier on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timara Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 There are times when I wish steam outline modellers were as red-hot on detail as their D&E counterparts. Whats wrong with people that they accept this kind of old tat? Reject it and make Hornby do better! It's that reason alone that I'm replacing the ancient bodyshell on my Comet-chassis'd model. I've got the rather nice Brassmasters one, which is cheap in comparison to either waiting to see if one appears in the Bachmann announcements next month or not or polishing the pile of dodgy doodah that is the current incumbent. Its tender is a Bachmann one I picked up over a decade ago for 4 quid on the returns stand at Warley...... Of course, if one does appear (and I'll be well and truly made up if they do!), then I'll flog its chassis and stick another Comet one underneath. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 It's that reason alone that I'm replacing the ancient bodyshell on my Comet-chassis'd model. I've got the rather nice Brassmasters one... Any reason why you are not using the frames from the Brassmasters kit, Tim? Surely that's one of the best bits of the kit, particularly with the inside motion. Mind you, I wouldn't have called it cheap, like any kit when you factor in the cost of wheels, motor etc., you rapidly approach the upper end of current RTR prices, and most would also need to add a tender... Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OFFTHE RAILS Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I've just looked at at the photographs of the loco drive 4F on the eHattons website. The new chassis appears to be misaligned with the body shell and the vertical panels under the boiler to hide the mechanism both definitely degrade rather than enhance the appearance of old tender driven version. So, my two Airfix 4Fs (fitted with more recent Hornby chemically darkened wheels and coupling rods and converted for DCC) will soldier on until Bachmann (please, please!) do a proper job on a 4F. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timara Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Any reason why you are not using the frames from the Brassmasters kit, Tim? Surely that's one of the best bits of the kit, particularly with the inside motion. Mind you, I wouldn't have called it cheap, like any kit when you factor in the cost of wheels, motor etc., you rapidly approach the upper end of current RTR prices, and most would also need to add a tender... Nick Yes. Having built my 3rd chassis for this thing (1st was banana, 2nd square but 00 - this new one being EM), I'm blown if I'm going to spend out even more, considering that the BM running-plate etch coincides nicely with the spacers on the Comet chassis! I had thought of going the entire hog, but when you have a perfectly square working chassis....... The thought of chopping bits off it to potentially fit under anything from Barwell in the future (usual caveat) whilst perfectly working doesn't really appeal..... I'll agree though, the BM chassis is a lovely bit of design! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluex5 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 It's probably superior to a lot of of the reheated leftovers being trolled out at the moment, but at least the 4-4-0's have price on their side. I paid £55 for my shiny new Bachmann 3F, why on earth would I pay best part of £80 for an inferior model of a simillar prototype? To be fair, had the price been more palatable I might of bitten as the new chassis (gearbox position nothwithstanding) is probably a gem, and the body, while dated - isn't a complete disgrace. But £80 would buy me another B1 or K3, both superior models of larger engines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 It's that reason alone that I'm replacing the ancient bodyshell on my Comet-chassis'd model. I've got the rather nice Brassmasters one, which is cheap in comparison to either waiting to see if one appears in the Bachmann announcements next month or not or polishing the pile of dodgy doodah that is the current incumbent. Its tender is a Bachmann one I picked up over a decade ago for 4 quid on the returns stand at Warley...... Just wondering, if it has a Brassmasters body, a Comet chassis and a Bachmann tender isn't it a little "off-topic"?. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted February 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 29, 2012 Slightly off-topic, but I'm amazed at how well my old tender-drive 4F runs with a bit of lubrication and a Hornby decoder, which is an easy fit in the tender. Superb slow-speed control, not too loud - I'm well happy. I also popped the same type of decoder in the tender drive 2P and got a great performance out of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Just wondering, if it has a Brassmasters body, a Comet chassis and a Bachmann tender isn't it a little "off-topic"?. Ed Indeed, that one will look like a real 4F.. . These must have been popular with a market we on rmweb don't know about for Hornby to have put this much effort into it but not to go the full hog. Splashers will inevitably be oversize incidentally in 4mm when done in plastic to cope with required thickness and 00 flanges if the diameter of the wheels is right. The 3F does have that issue though its not as noticeable as the 4F. It really is a shame though that the standard gearbox produced even more compromise on the look though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted March 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 1, 2012 The more I study the pictures and compare this offering with my 3F the more I believe that this is yet another opportunity missed. If Hornby had put a bit of effort into this model (a vertically mounted 3 pole would have helped) then this would not be a half bad loco. It will appeal to those who wish to re-chassis, but to those who want a decent 4F 'off the shelf' this is not the loco, at least at £80 it is not. A couple of times recently Hornby have got one over on Bachmann (Standard 4MT and B1). This would be a perfect opportunity for Bachmann to redress the balance a bit. I cant help but think that the partial redevelopment of the Hornby model has been money poorly spent and in all probablity will not be a good return, especially when one considers that a bit more investment would have spawned a best seller. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Hornby, as we know, has a habit of doing the half-way house model when switching the motor from the tender to the loco. It was done with the Castle, followed by a super upgraded body. In the case of the 4F, I don't think Hornby has any intention of following it up with a scale model seeing as it too will be stimied by the motor showing under the boiler. Therefore I conclude it was produced simply to 'raid' the market in case Bachmann announces a 4F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I paid £55 for my shiny new Bachmann 3F, From a different perspective, rather than the Hornby 4f being expensive at £80, could be argued that Bachamnn have priced the 3F artificially low? It has just cost me £58 for the Bachmann Collett goods which is a very old existing tooling, yet Bachmann at £55, are charging less for the 3F, a brand new developed model. Considering pre-order Dukedog prices at £100+ and Southern goods at £70+, with my advertising days head on, it has the feel of a marketing initiative against a similar competitor product. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 The boggles aren't confined to Hornby. Buffalo has already mentioned the Bachmann 3F has one, their Ivatt 2MT,S&DJR 7F, BR 9F, and ROD all have them too although on those they are a little more hidden by splashers and footplate clutter. In fact, anything without a large tapered boiler or side tanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 The 3F isn't similar to the 4F anymore than a 2P is similar to a Compound. Modellers are supposed to know the difference! Saying the 3F is maybe too cheap is looking a gift horse in the mouth. Buy plenty of them seeing as Bachmann has made them so affordable and encourage this company to produce more, including a 4F. I cannot see how encouraging Hornby to produce the higher priced outdated 4F is doing the hobby any favours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Scottish Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 "half-way house model"(Coachman) with the full price! My Airfix one lives on! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 From a different perspective, rather than the Hornby 4f being expensive at £80, could be argued that Bachamnn have priced the 3F artificially low? It has just cost me £58 for the Bachmann Collett goods which is a very old existing tooling, yet Bachmann at £55, are charging less for the 3F, a brand new developed model. Considering pre-order Dukedog prices at £100+ and Southern goods at £70+, with my advertising days head on, it has the feel of a marketing initiative against a similar competitor product. TBH Mike, I'm inclined to look at it that way, I always thought Bachmann's BR brakevan was artificially low in price considering it was at one time within pennies of the minerals, yet has many more parts. Maybe one factor is that folk buy many less brakevans than 'block train' wagons. But it's hardly a Bachmann prerogative to price low where there is perceived competition, I think it's a sign of the times - Hornby's OTA is way cheaper than Bachmann's, and apparently Dapol's Western is to be the same RRP as the 22. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 The 3F isn't similar to the 4F anymore than a 2P is similar to a Compound. Modellers are supposed to know the difference! Thing is Larry, that's how a lot of buyers think. I've seen folk comparing 08s to cl. 14s and 24s to Baby Deltics on a price basis, OK we know that they're only interchangeable to a limited extent, but with some buyers it's just something else to chuck money at rather than a loco to suit a given layout scenario. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Just noticed the TransPennine Unit on your avatar. Now this is one train I would be sorely tempted to chuck money at! Swift and silent, a brandnew one sneaked up on me near Mossley in 1961 and I missed the photo. Always liked them in green. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2012 TBH Mike, I'm inclined to look at it that way, I always thought Bachmann's BR brakevan was artificially low in price considering it was at one time within pennies of the minerals, yet has many more parts. Maybe one factor is that folk buy many less brakevans than 'block train' wagons. But it's hardly a Bachmann prerogative to price low where there is perceived competition, I think it's a sign of the times - Hornby's OTA is way cheaper than Bachmann's, and apparently Dapol's Western is to be the same RRP as the 22. Manufacturers presumably charge (at RRP) what they believe the market will bear? Hopefully - for their continued existence if nothing else - the trade price at which they sell is more than sufficient to cover their costs, what the retailer then does with his pricing is do a similar set of sums to calculate what he can sell at to achieve best overall result for his business (which might vary between cash flow, market share, and maximising profitability - and a combination of those factors). Some of it will inevitably be about market share when 'the competition' offers similar models and as Ian has indicated it looks as if that influences pricing at the RRP level if not at retail level. And if something is too highly priced or not hitting the right market the manufacturer will, it currently seems, start dumping stock at reduced prices - presumably to improve cash flow. I believe it's called 'business' and we are simply 'customers' (sometimes - because we too make decisions balancing a different set of factors in our purchasing decisions although money is common right the way through). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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