Shunting signals in OO gauge

[billtee]

I've been reading all the posts by members of the Forum about shunting signals (electric light type, not semaphore), and I'm getting more and more confused.

Some manufacturers produce them, but I've seen two types - one is simply a three-aspect signal head mounted on a low base unit, though I've never actually seen a ground signal like that being used on modern British railways.

The other type, produced by Eckon, appears to have three lamps so you can 'see' two lamps set in a horizontal row, or two lamps (white?) in a diagonal.

Where I am getting very confused is:

(1) Are the two horizontal lamps white, white and red, or both red? I'm assuming I am looking at the lamps from the cab of a diesel locomotive.

(2) Are the diagonal lamps both white? And subsidiary to this question is, does the diagonal go UP from the left (to top right) or right to top left?

(3) Where are the ground signals positioned? Beside the toe of the associated turnout, and if so, on the left or on the right of the turnout (or point as I usually call them)?

(4) Are ground signals used ONLY for calling on locomotives past 'main' signals, or not associated with 'ordinary' main signals at all?

(5) are ground signals ever positioned at, or near, the frog end of a point?

These questions show I know absolutely NOTHING about ground signals at all (which is correct!), and passing (even identifying) ground signals from a moving train, especially at night, is near to impossible! There are NO ground signals anywhere near where I live on the nearby main line (going through Harbury to Leamington Spa or to Banbury) so I can't photograph any.

I have installed some signals on my model railway which are controlled (via SPDT switches attached to the point motors) by the points themselves, one of them being a 3-aspect with left feather. This junction accesses a single siding with a small station platform. The 'main through line' then passes another carriage siding, then runs through a three-way point (from the heel or frog end, not the toe).

If the main junction point is set to enter the station platform, the signal displays an amber, because the next 'signal' is the red at the end of the siding!

If the main junction point is set to pass this station siding, but the NEXT point is set to to its siding, the signal displays an amber with left feather, because it too has a red at the end of the siding.

If either or both of the points which make up the 3-way point on the main route are set against through running of the main line, the signal displays red. Only if ALL points are set correctly will the signal display a green with left feather.

I also have a three aspect starter signal at the end of the station platform which is also controlled by two points, but I won't discuss this signal now except that it works just fine.

When I am 'night running' my trains and can't clearly see which way points have been set without referring to my mimic board where the control switches are (because I'm away from the main operating position), then the signals perform extremely well, indicating which route the train will take, or if the through main line has all the points set for through running. It took me ages to design the logic circuit and mountings for the SPDT microswitches ( plus plenty of diodes!), but it all works.

I want to fit ground signals for the many other sidings which radiate from the three-way point into my TMD, all of them controlled by their associated point.

I'm not at all clear whether this was ever prototypical, though I have seen the old semaphore-type ground signals with operating rods connected to the associated point. Whether this is still true with coloured light type ground signals, I don't know.

If any of you knowledgeable chaps can help me, I would be very grateful indeed.

Thank you,

Bill

[billtee]

I should have added that eventually the 3-aspect with left feather will have an IRDOT module attached, so indicating that a train has run past the signal which would then go to red irrespective of point settings! I have still to purchase one of these modules and installing the associated IR sensor makes me a little, er, tense!

All the best,

Bill

[The Stationmaster]

I've been reading all the posts by members of the Forum about shunting signals (electric light type, not semaphore), and I'm getting more and more confused.

Some manufacturers produce them, but I've seen two types - one is simply a three-aspect signal head mounted on a low base unit, though I've never actually seen a ground signal like that being used on modern British railways.

The other type, produced by Eckon, appears to have three lamps so you can 'see' two lamps set in a horizontal row, or two lamps (white?) in a diagonal.

Where I am getting very confused is:

(1) Are the two horizontal lamps white, white and red, or both red? I'm assuming I am looking at the lamps from the cab of a diesel locomotive.

(2) Are the diagonal lamps both white? And subsidiary to this question is, does the diagonal go UP from the left (to top right) or right to top left?

(3) Where are the ground signals positioned? Beside the toe of the associated turnout, and if so, on the left or on the right of the turnout (or point as I usually call them)?

(4) Are ground signals used ONLY for calling on locomotives past 'main' signals, or not associated with 'ordinary' main signals at all?

(5) are ground signals ever positioned at, or near, the frog end of a point?

These questions show I know absolutely NOTHING about ground signals at all (which is correct!), and passing (even identifying) ground signals from a moving train, especially at night, is near to impossible! There are NO ground signals anywhere near where I live on the nearby main line (going through Harbury to Leamington Spa or to Banbury) so I can't photograph any.

I have installed some signals on my model railway which are controlled (via SPDT switches attached to the point motors) by the points themselves, one of them being a 3-aspect with left feather. This junction accesses a single siding with a small station platform. The 'main through line' then passes another carriage siding, then runs through a three-way point (from the heel or frog end, not the toe).

If the main junction point is set to enter the station platform, the signal displays an amber, because the next 'signal' is the red at the end of the siding!

If the main junction point is set to pass this station siding, but the NEXT point is set to to its siding, the signal displays an amber with left feather, because it too has a red at the end of the siding.

If either or both of the points which make up the 3-way point on the main route are set against through running of the main line, the signal displays red. Only if ALL points are set correctly will the signal display a green with left feather.

I also have a three aspect starter signal at the end of the station platform which is also controlled by two points, but I won't discuss this signal now except that it works just fine.

When I am 'night running' my trains and can't clearly see which way points have been set without referring to my mimic board where the control switches are (because I'm away from the main operating position), then the signals perform extremely well, indicating which route the train will take, or if the through main line has all the points set for through running. It took me ages to design the logic circuit and mountings for the SPDT microswitches ( plus plenty of diodes!), but it all works.

I want to fit ground signals for the many other sidings which radiate from the three-way point into my TMD, all of them controlled by their associated point.

I'm not at all clear whether this was ever prototypical, though I have seen the old semaphore-type ground signals with operating rods connected to the associated point. Whether this is still true with coloured light type ground signals, I don't know.

If any of you knowledgeable chaps can help me, I would be very grateful indeed.

Thank you,

Bill

 

Cor, you don't 'alf ask some questions Bill Fortunately most of them aren't difficult to answer and the best way to learn is to ask so no complaints on that score from me. I've not time yet this morning to do the illustrations for the reply but I'll try to give a quick response now and come back with some hopefully helpful pics later in the day, I hope.

 

We appear to be talking about position light signal and when mounted at ground level they are called 'ground position light signals' (GPL for short) and they are used to signal shunting movements although they do have some other uses as well. They are situated at the toe of points for facing movements towards those points (and they are not situated at every point toe). They are not situated at the crossing (frog) end of a point - except on model railways owned by people who haven't bothered to ask - but they are used for movements into the trailing end of points, in which case they will be sited at least at the fouling point or a bit further from the crossing than the fouling point, like this one -

 

 

Now this one also has the 'modern' arrangement of showing two red lights in the 'on' position - for many years the showed one red (on the left) and one white (on the right and called the 'pivot light') when 'on'. They show two white lights when 'off', one at top left and one (the pivot light) at bottom right. The change to all red when on basically took place from the very late 1990s onwards. Just think of the two white lights as equivalent to the 'off' position of an upper quadrant semaphore signal, they point up to the left side of the structure. Some have yellow lights instead of red and they correspond directly in meaning with a yellow 'arm' shunting disc signal.

 

Like other signal they are normally positioned to teh left of teh line to which they apply but sometimes siting and sighting constraints can lead to them being positioned on the right but this is relatively unusual in ground mounted signals.

 

They also come as 'subsidiary signals' mounted on the same structure as a main aspect running signal (hence they are subsidiary to it) but in this case as there's a nice juicy red light above them they are only illuminated when 'off'. In this situation they are used to signal shunting movements/subsidiary movements - almost inevitably this means a movement towards a section which is already occupied by another train or vehicles. They also act as an equivalent to the old semaphore Calling-On signal in order to admit a train to a section which is occupied BUT if it is a passenger train they can only be passed in this circumstance if the two white lights are also accompanied by an indication of route.

 

This is an example of one mounted as a subsidiary signal in conjunction with a main running aspect

 

 

There'll be more to come later on your other questions - I'm trying to catch-up on other threads at the moment.

[The Stationmaster]

Right let's add some more illustrations starting with theholder aspect arrangement and what it looks like in the 'on' position plus you can see how near to a point toe such a signal is usually sited (ignore the mounting methods and numberplates - they are 'leisure railway' own style jobs).

 

 

 

 

And you can even mount them at high level on their own structure - not all that common nowadays but it can happen (sorry about the angle, this was a quickie out of a train window).

 

 

Here's another view of how to site one at a trailing connection.

 

 

Finally you can also sometimes find running signals 'on the ground' - these are co-acting heads intended to assist with sighting although very occasionally you will find a signal ground mounted.

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

As far as your arrangement with your running signals are concerned what you do is up to you - i.e. you can copy the prototype, especially in terms of getting aspect sequences correct, or you can do something which you understand which suits what you want on your railway and still have an element of the prototype about it in the way you have. At least you have made the aspect sequence meaningful which is a great idea and helps you operate your railway.

[billtee]

Thank you for your very comprehensive answer, Stationmaster! I'm think I'm fairly OK now with ground position light (GPL) signals, thank you, and I've ordered three Eckon kits from CravenModels, two to become GPLs, and one to be fitted to the post of a signal already in position. I'm not sure how I'll do that last one, but I'll get the hang of it, I'm sure.

My biggest problem is space - my TMD's 'throat' is fairly full of track and points, and originally I was going to use a three head, 2-aspect signal post (by Eckon), and I even made up the logic circuit which would have been driven by the SPDT switches within the Cobalt point motors. However, after reading all the comments by the knowledgeable blokes in this Forum, I decided that this was NOT the way to go, even though it would have shown me which way the three-way point was set.

At the moment I don't have ANY signals for this 3-way point (!), but IU may make up a signal gantry to cross over the tracks just before the first 'toe' of the 3-way point. I could then fit two 2-aspect signal heads with feathers (one left, one right of course) above the approach track, or (if my modelmaking skills are up to it), just the one R-A-G signal with two feathers, one left and one right. This type of signal I have seen in photographs put up by one of the contributors to this site. I'm not sure how I would have to fasten the feathers to the top of the 3-aspect signal, but with some judicious chopping with a scalpel of the semi-circular 'base' to each feather might do the trick. At least the signal would be correct and not something dreamt up by me. Alternatively, I could use a substantial bracket signal post which I have found listed on a manufacturer's website. Then at least the multiplicity of wires feeding down from the signal and two feathers would be hidden from view until they emerge under my baseboard.

My biggest problem is my eyesight - I have to lie on my back under the baseboard, and then the fine enamelled wires are about two feet at least from my eyes, and I can't see the fine wires at all. I now solder a short length of 10/0.2 (or thereabouts) white wire to each enamelled lead coming from the signals, then colour each of them with an appropriate permanent colour marker, so now I can see the wire I'm trying to connect up to the circuitry! We learn . . . , eventually!

Anyway, dear Sir, thank you very much again for your help - I really appreciate it. Hand-holding tyro's like me is obviously your speciality! My former job as Editor of "Engineering in Miniature" was a doddle compared to OO gauge railway modelling these days, but at least it keeps me entertained and not moping about - it's been almost a year since my wife died, and she would have loved my layout as she was a real model railway fan! The layout is, of course, my tribute to her.

All the very best,

Bill

PS: I've attached an early photograph of my layout showing the three-way point and sidings, with the Class 153 in the platform. This photo shows that I haven't yet done the ballasting, and the signals I've been writing about weren't installed when this photo was snapped on my iPhone.

[The Stationmaster]

Bill I'm not clear if the line approaching your 3 way is a running line or siding? If it's the latter all is well and you use a GPL (with or without a stencil pattern route indicator depending on the area you are modelling - in my second post above the last picture but one, at Kings Cross, shows the ER method of doing it with a GPL.

 

If it's a running signal then the answer could be to use a 'theatre' style route indicator - which shows letters or numbers instead of having JI 'feathers'. It's the big 'boxlike thing' to the immediate right of the signal head on TR 53 in my first batch of pics (that signal is unusual in having both a Position 4 JI and a theatre style route indicator - and it can display both at the same time for some route settings, I don't think we'll go there yet

 

PS I do like that footbridge, very natty B)

[billtee]

Dear Mike, the Stationmaster:

Thank you for your comments regarding my layout. The line leading up to the 3-way point is the "main line" (which continues under the plate girder road bridge you can see, and curves (19" radius, the minimum I can get away where the track can't be seen as my diesel locos are rather l-o-n-g!) right around the rear of the layout and so joins up at the other end so that I have a 'running oval' of track and I can watch trains going by. The "main line" (for want of a better description) is the track leading directly towards the camera, joining up to the station siding on the right. There is now my 3-aspect/feather signal just to the left of the 'cameraman's' position, and this signal is controlled by the three-way point and the two points on the main line coming directly towards the camera. This track then continues behind me (as the cameraman) and links up at the rear of the layout - I have a couple of sidings there for train storage - it's not a proper fiddle yard, but space in my spare bedroom is rather limited, and I was indeed lucky to fit the 10ft by 4'6" layout into the room at all. Only the front 2'6" is detailed - I've got to be able to get to the rear of the layout to fit LEDs, open the bedroom curtains and window, etc., so there's a narrow 15" space behind all the shops where I can struggle to my feet.

 

I don't know how I'd model a theatre-style route indicator - can they be purchased? I don't think my modelling skills extend to electronics - all my signals, etc. are just 'electrical' and concern SPDT switches, but something as complex as a theatre-style route indicator would, I imagine, involve electronics!

 

One last question which has just arisen:

What does the arrow on GPLs signify? Is it to clarify which road the GPL applies to, or something else? I guess the numbers seen at the bottom of the GPLs is the signal number (for train crew to identify should they have to report to base).

 

Hope you like my layout - a lot has been done since that photo was taken - now there are railings down both roads which can be seen, level crossing signs (not signalled, because the crossing is strictly for workers within the TMD) and there are many, many LEDs both inside and outside the servicing shed(s). There's still many more to be installed within the buildings. I've now got street lights, working traffic lights, lights within the TMD offices and the Portakabins, and at 'night' the scene is rather magical.

All the best, and thank you again for all your help. I really appreciate it.

Bill

[billtee]

PS: The footbridge is an amalgam (if that is the word) of FIVE Hornby footbridges, with extended bridge supports and reinforcing stays. The footbridge is now lit with LEDs - we can't have our prospective passengers groping their way across to the station platform!

Bill

[Tase]

Bill,

Absolute Aspects sell both single and double character theatre style route indicators in both N and OO gauge.

 

https://www.absoluteaspects.com/index.php/online-shop/17

 

Link above takes you to the oo gauge version.

Hth.

T.

[The Stationmaster]

 

I don't know how I'd model a theatre-style route indicator - can they be purchased? I don't think my modelling skills extend to electronics - all my signals, etc. are just 'electrical' and concern SPDT switches, but something as complex as a theatre-style route indicator would, I imagine, involve electronics!

You've had a link, I see, for a commercially available theatre indicator and several folk have covered/mentioned the modelling of them on here. I suspect the best answer - if the pocket is deep enough - might be to buy?

One last question which has just arisen:

What does the arrow on GPLs signify? Is it to clarify which road the GPL applies to, or something else? I guess the numbers seen at the bottom of the GPLs is the signal number (for train crew to identify should they have to report to base).

The arrow points towards the line to which the signal applies and is not a universal item - quitea lot of difference in regional practice regarding numberplates on GPLs but there is now (and has been since the mid 1990s) a standard style of plate.

 

Regarding making colour light signals work I tend to the old-fashioned and (not that I have used any on a layout for quite a lot of years) like wiring where i can see the route the electricity is taking thus I've never got involved or needed to get involved with doing thinsg using such things as integrated circuits or more modern things such as processors etc/ For me switches are simple to understand and relays are basically switches worked by electricity (bet this heresy is raising someone's blood pressure ) . The advantage of this approach for a newcomer to colour light signalling is considerable because, in my view, it helps you to understand some of the principles far more easily - for example a running signal in reality only has two states 'danger' ((also called 'on') which means it displays a red aspect, and 'clear' ('off') in which the aspect it displays is controlled by the aspect shown by the signal(s) in advance of it. Similarly illuminating a route indicator of any sort on a signal is what also drives the control that changes the signal from danger to clear (and selects which signal in advance will control the appropriate 'clear' aspect it will show.

 

It can all be done by back boxes which do the thinking for you of course - but you can also work it out for yourself as it is all very logical at its basic level.

[SwissRailPassion]

A problem for the modern modeller is the lack of ready made stencil indicators. Theatre indicators are available from absolute aspects but the ones shown on the website seem to be much larger than scale - however this may have changed since the takeover. Stencils could be made from surface mounted leds 1 or 2 mm in size. Very fiddly though. 30 years ago, when I was 15, I made a theatre indicator using a 9mm display and fine wire. I thought it wouldn't be long before someone began to produce them.

[The Stationmaster]

One way of making stencil indicators is to use perspex, cut to shape and painted then 'engrave' the number/letter into the front and illuminate internally - not too bad when it's put into a 'casing' (using Plasticard). Years ago I used grain of wheat bulbs as the light source so they were hefty indicators. Nowadays I reckon fibre optics could be used saving a lot of size although I haven't tried it.

[Absolute Aspects]

A problem for the modern modeller is the lack of ready made stencil indicators. Theatre indicators are available from absolute aspects but the ones shown on the website seem to be much larger than scale - however this may have changed since the takeover. Stencils could be made from surface mounted leds 1 or 2 mm in size. Very fiddly though. 30 years ago, when I was 15, I made a theatre indicator using a 9mm display and fine wire. I thought it wouldn't be long before someone began to produce them.

 

Yes we do indeed make 'alpha numeric' Route Indicator displays for 00 signals and 0 gauge signals and ground position sigianls. We are currently trying to source stencil type route indicators, the problem being that they are far too fidderly and exspensive, good for one offs, but not for the large amount of orders we are getting for them. However this may all change in the future.

 

As for them looking over scale, your right. The ones currently posted on the website were slightly too big, but did not look out of place on the layout. Because of our high level of quality we like to offer our customers we have designed a new cover/hood to go over the route indicator that makes it look a lot smaller. In time we will update the website to show this new design.

 

Matt

[Horsetan]

.... We are currently trying to source stencil type route indicators, the problem being that they are far too fidderly and exspensive, good for one offs, but not for the large amount of orders we are getting for them.....

 

Are you using those tiny rectangular white SMD LEDs for stencils?

[Absolute Aspects]

Are you using those tiny rectangular white SMD LEDs for stencils?

 

No, however we use one for each light on a junction indicator.

[105mark]

Hi,

 

I wanted to make 00 Gauge 2 aspect ground signals using 3mm LED.

The problem is finding holders for the LEDs that look like the ground signals.

The solution has been to use the plastic size clips that M & S affix to the hook on their coat hangers. They are a plastic clip with 10mm sides and 3.5mm holes , one above the other.

I have inserted a yellow LED in the top hole and red i the bottom and then bent the prongs to follow the line of the clip. As the holes are just slightly oversize, I have packed the back of the hole with epoxy putty.

I will then solder the progns to single core bell wire and solder that to an electrofrog point so that movement of the point activates the LEDs alternatively.

With LEDs from Maplins for about 0.69 pence, the entire signal costs about £2.00.

 

The next progect is to use perhaps the same clip cut down to create a 2 aspect high signal.

 

Remember, only use M & S clips you are entitled to employ.