Royal Scot (Express) in the 1950s

[69843]

Hi

 

I am currently trying to form a representation of the BR(M) Royal Scot Express as it was in the early 1950s

 

I've been looking around almost everywhere I can think of, but have only turned up the minimum amount of information on this subject.

 

Is there anyone out there who can help me with this?

[Leander]

Carter's 'Passenger Train Formations - LMS/LMR' book offers the formation of the down train in 1954 as: BTK, CK, CK, CK, CK, TO, TO, RTO, RK, RFO, FK, CK, BG. All being composed of Mark 1 stock.

 

Edited to correct typo.

[69843]

Thanks for the info on the train Leander, BTW, do you know if in about 1951/2 the train would of been made up of LMS Period III and BR Mk1 Stock?

 

(TO, RTO) I would assume that these coaches were reclassified SO and RMB?

[Leander]

Thanks for the info on the train Leander, BTW, do you know if in about 1951/2 the train would of been made up of LMS Period III and BR Mk1 Stock?

 

(TO, RTO) I would assume that these coaches were reclassified SO and RMB?

 

I think it's fairly safe to assume prior to 1951, the train would have been made up of pre-war Period 3s, post war Period 3s with the additional doors on the corridor side, and Porthole stock (still under construction in 1951). However, Carter states that in 1951, "the train became one of the first to be formed of new BR standard stock". A photo of the up train in the book has BG, CK, FK, RFO and RK as the first five vehicles, much the same as in 1954. The RK was one of those kitchen cars with no seating, the diners sat in the flanking RFO and RTO, thus making a three car catering set.

 

TO became SO and RTO became RSO, the difference being in the seating (2+2 and 2+1 respectively), the latter being used as dining cars. RMB is a Restaurant Miniature Buffet which is an Open Second with 2+2 seating with a buffet counter, serving/standing area and storage locker instead of several bays of seats.

 

Carter gives the 1949 formation (LMS stock of course) as: Glasgow portion - BTK, TO, TO, RK, FO, FK, FK, BTK and the Edinburgh portion as: BTK, TK, CK, CK, TK, BTK.

 

If you wish to learn more about loco hauled coaching stock in the post 1948 period, may I recommend to you Robert Carroll's excellent Yahoo group http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRCoachingStock/?yguid=152282886

[robertcwp]

The Royal Scot was a very early recipient of BR Standard Stock (in 1951). At that time, most LMS-design stock did not have gangway adaptors and thus could not be coupled to BR Standard Stock in service. This led to the LMR having to borrow a Bulleid open third from the SR and, I believe, a full brake from the ER. This problem went away as gangway adaptors were fitted to many vehicles with British Standard gangways, enabling them to join to the Pullman gangways on BR Standard stock.

 

By the mid-1950s, some LMS-design stock had reappeared in the train - notably a kitchen car (the LMR disliked the BR Standard ones) and an open first.

 

Here is a mid-1950s view of the train:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5416921088/in/set-72157621174728515

[6959]

Carter's 'Passenger Train Formations - LMS/LMR' book offers the formation of the down train in 1954 as: BCK, CK, CK, CK, CK, TO, TO, RTO, RK, RFO, FK, CK, BG. All being composed of Mark 1 stock.

 

Royal Scot Train Formation

 

Bachmann MK1 models available to represent this formation:

(may be some time compression regarding build dates - other options are possible);

 

BCK [M 21026 or M 21030 or M 21029],

CK [M15019],

CK [M15192],

CK [M15181]

CK [use another CK with same running number or SK [M24135] in lieu],

TO [use SO M3737 in lieu],

TO [use SO M3741 in lieu],

RTO [not available - use SO in lieu],

RK [not available - use RU as best substitute],

RFO [M4],

FK [M13110 or M13060],

CK [another] or use a BCK or SK [M24467] in lieu,

BG [M85065].

 

Errors and omissions excepted.

[robertcwp]

I don't know where Clive Carter's information came from but the Summer 1954 LMR Western Lines carriage workings list train as follows:

 

BSK (24)

4 TK (48)

2 TO (64)

RTO (48)

RK

RFO (42)

FK (42)

CK (24/18)

BG

 

All BR Standard stock (though in practice LMS-design RK and FO appeared too). Numbers in brackets are number of seats. Note that LMR stock had armrests in Third Class - hence Third Class compartments seated 6 each. All of these vehicles except the RTO and RK are in the Bachmann range. Comet do full kits and etched sides for those two, though the sides are sold only as a pack including the RFO. The RTO lacked the middle door found on the common design of TO as modelled by Bachmann. Note also that the designation TTO for a 64-seat vehicle was not used on the LMR at the time.

[6959]

I don't know where Clive Carter's information came from but the Summer 1954 LMR Western Lines carriage workings list train as follows:

 

BSK (24)

4 TK (48)

2 TO (64)

RTO (48)

RK

RFO (42)

FK (42)

CK (24/18)

BG

 

All BR Standard stock (though in practice LMS-design RK and FO appeared too). Numbers in brackets are number of seats. Note that LMR stock had armrests in Third Class - hence Third Class compartments seated 6 each. All of these vehicles except the RTO and RK are in the Bachmann range. Comet do full kits and etched sides for those two, though the sides are sold only as a pack including the RFO. The RTO lacked the middle door found on the common design of TO as modelled by Bachmann. Note also that the designation TTO for a 64-seat vehicle was not used on the LMR at the time.

 

Bachmann MK1 coaches for formation shown above:

BSK (24) [Mxxxxx],

TK (48) {use SK [M24135] in lieu},

TK (48) {use SK [M24467] in lieu},

TK (48) {another SK - duplicate running number or CK [M15192} in lieu},

TK (48) {another SK - duplicate running number or CK [M15181] in lieu},

TO (64) {use SO M3737 in lieu},

TO (64) {use SO M3741 in lieu},

RTO (48) {not available - use SO in lieu},

RK {not available - use RU as best substitute},

RFO (42) [M4],

FK (42) [M13110 or M13060 or M13004],

CK (24/18) [M15019 or M15192 or M15181],

BG [M85065].

[69843]

Thanks everyone who replied

 

I now have enough info to start to build up the stock for it. Should cost a bit, but there is no substitute for a full 13 car train behind one of those beautiful Princess Coronations!

 

the rake will be BSK, TK, TK, CK, TK, TO, TO, RTO (all Mk1), KC, (PIII) RFO, (MK1) FO, CK (PIII) BG (Mk1)