West Kirby Town: narrow gauge is coming to town.

[pwr]

Rod

 

Don't forget also to mix the different length fibres and different coloured ones so you don't get a uniform colour or length.

 

Paul R

Edited September 27, 2015 by pwr

[two tone green]

And you end up with oil residue all over your models and layout. Everything takes on a sheen after a while.

[81A Oldoak]

As I found out way back in 1972, when I had the newly introduced Hornby pannier with "Synchrosmoke" for Christmas...

 

I had the same effect with the Triang-Hornby Jinty in the Car-A-Belle trainset that I received for Christmas in 1965.

[pwr]

Photoshop it is then!

 

Paul R

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

Thanks for all your comments and photos about static grass.  And I do agree with the comments about smoke oil leaving a greasy, oily residue on loco bodies: the amount put in has to be very carefully controlled to avoid it - and put too little in and it runs out quickly. 

 

I've had another go at the static grass today, to see what I've learned.  I've used both applicators but only the smaller one is any use really.  Even then, it has to be kept very close to the glue to have any effect, but then what can happen (and did) is that the applicator touches the glue and I then had to wash it and start all over again!  Anyway, here's a couple of pics of what I managed with the smaller one:

 

 

The lefthand one is 6mm on top of 2mm and the righthand is 6mm on top of 6mm - with possibly some bits of 10mm in there too.  They look OK but the effect has been helped by using (very carefully!) my household vacuum cleaner to clear up the loose stuff and help the others to stand up.  There's a bare patch visible at the top righthand corner of the 2nd one - that's where the vacuum cleaner touched the grass and the glue!!!  Ooops!

 

The next pic is of some 10mm on top of 6mm.  It's after the vacuum treatment but I'm still not convinced by it at all.  If I was wanting brambles, maybe, but I want tall grass!!

 

 

So, as the shorter stuff seemed to be working OK, I thought I'd try some on the layout.  I did a little patch of 2mm plus 6mm near the bridge.  Here's how it looks:

 

 

And finally, a pic of the 131 next to the grass:

 

 

I need to put some bushes at the bottom of the wall, but I also need a bit of variety in that grass, too.  I'm beginning to get the feel for this but I do need a more powerful applicator.  And - how's this for a coincidence - I was talking tonight to the pal whose layout I'm working on at Wigan this weekend and he's got a Greenscenes Flockit that he's never used, so he's going to lend it to me to see how it goes!!

 

I was going to spend the whole weekend on the layout at Wigan (Apethorne Junction) but after Everton's result tonight, I've just got to go to the derby match on Sunday!!  Fortunately, I think he's enough people to cover for me!

 

More soon.

 

Rod

 

[Jintyman]

 

The grasses look nice Rod, I've got a few bags of various WWS static grass, and I'm going to have a play with some on my photo plank. If they come out half as good as yours have I'll be very pleased.

 

Jinty

[Dmudriver]

Thanks for the comment, Jinty.  Just make sure you've got an applicator with a bit of "ooomph"!!

 

Rod

[Jintyman]

Thanks for the comment, Jinty.  Just make sure you've got an applicator with a bit of "ooomph"!!

 

Rod

Yes I'm wondering now if my home made effort will suffice, or should I invest in something more substantial???

A couple of trials on the plank will tell me.

 

Jinty

[81A Oldoak]

I use very cheap hairspray as the adhesive for the second and subsequent applications of static grass. The cheapest seem to be the best as they set more slowly. Morrisons do a particularly noxious and sticky own-brand version in a metallic purple can, though I'm sure Asda, Lidl and the other budget  supermarkets have their own particularly cheap and nasty concotions. This is definitely an instance when the more expensive brand names are inferior. There is also the advantage that the memsahib and daughters won't appropriate the cheap stuff for its intended purpose.

[muddys-blues]

I use very cheap hairspray as the adhesive for the second and subsequent applications of static grass. The cheapest seem to be the best as they set more slowly. Morrisons do a particularly noxious and sticky own-brand version in a metallic purple can, though I'm sure Asda, Lidl and the other budget  supermarkets have their own particularly cheap and nasty concotions. This is definitely an instance when the more expensive brand names are inferior. There is also the advantage that the memsahib and daughters won't appropriate the cheap stuff for its intended purpose.

 

Hello Chris that is very informative about cheaper hairspray options thanks for the tip .................. but I giggled to myself thinking of you stood in a queue in Morrison's clutching 6 x cans in your arms, and then imagining a surprised look on the young checkout assistant's face seeing a Man with your swarve hairstyle buying up all that hairspray 

[muddys-blues]

Hello Rod, the grasses do look good by the tunnel, and once some more colour tones are added "a bit of browns & straw yellow" are mixed in the effect will be superb, watching with interest now to nick some of the ideas.

 

With regards to next Sunday, do you see this being the nail in the coffin for "Brenda Blethyn" if the Toffee Men take the 3 points ?

 

Best regards

Craig.

Edited September 29, 2015 by muddys-blues

[Dmudriver]

Hi Jinty.

 

I found this thread last night and it contains some useful ideas:  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64167-static-grass-tips-and-techniques/

 

You might find it useful, too.  I particularly like the balloon idea - I'll see if I can get one today to try it.

 

Rod

Edited September 29, 2015 by Dmudriver

[Tove]

I assume that you let the first layer of grass dry completley before adding the second layer?,because i`ve found that if it`s all done at once then it`s just too much for the aplicator to handle.

 

I did a little experiment a while ago to see what would work on the egde of a road,i don`t know if it`ll help with your edging;

 

But in the pictures i`ve used 4mm Summer grass (WWs) with a little 6mm Spring (WWs) added,but first i did a small strip on what is the grass line with Woodlands Scenics Burnt grass to give it that dried summer look.

 

It`s always to good to see how different people approach scenery,so keep the pic`s coming!.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[81A Oldoak]

I assume that you let the first layer of grass dry completley before adding the second layer?,because i`ve found that if it`s all done at once then it`s just too much for the aplicator to handle.

 

I did a little experiment a while ago to see what would work on the egde of a road,i don`t know if it`ll help with your edging;

Dia.#1.jpgDia.#2.jpg

 

But in the pictures i`ve used 4mm Summer grass (WWs) with a little 6mm Spring (WWs) added,but first i did a small strip on what is the grass line with Woodlands Scenics Burnt grass to give it that dried summer look.

 

It`s always to good to see how different people approach scenery,so keep the pic`s coming!.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

I always let the first layer set before applying the second.

[81A Oldoak]

Hello Chris that is very informative about cheaper hairspray options thanks for the tip .................. but I giggled to myself thinking of you stood in a queue in Morrison's clutching 6 x cans in your arms, and then imagining a surprised look on the young checkout assistant's face seeing a Man with your swarve hairstyle buying up all that hairspray 

I just chuck them into the basket with the ladies' pop socks that I use to filter vacuum recovery of the surplus grass.

[Dmudriver]

Hi Brian and Chris.

 

No, I didn't let the first layer dry before doing the second.  I thought it was necessary to keep the glue wet to get a decent circuit.  I just refilled the applicator with whatever was next and then sprayed glue onto the first layer.  If the glue is dry, how do you get the circuit for the second layer?

 

I did buy the (more expensive) WWS glue and spray but I think in future I'll try PVA and hairspray, which seem to work just as well from what's been said so far..

 

Rod

[railwayrod]

Hi Rod

 

When Howard was going over the grassy areas of Ramchester he used PVA for the first application and hair spray for the second. I am not sure whether he let the first layer dry bifore he added the second but the final effect is very pleasing.

 

Rod

[Jintyman]

I assume that you let the first layer of grass dry completley before adding the second layer?,because i`ve found that if it`s all done at once then it`s just too much for the aplicator to handle.

 

I did a little experiment a while ago to see what would work on the egde of a road,i don`t know if it`ll help with your edging;

 

But in the pictures i`ve used 4mm Summer grass (WWs) with a little 6mm Spring (WWs) added,but first i did a small strip on what is the grass line with Woodlands Scenics Burnt grass to give it that dried summer look.

 

It`s always to good to see how different people approach scenery,so keep the pic`s coming!.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

Tove,

 

I love the road surface, and the uneven attitude to the grass bank and fence.

Can I ask what you used for the road? Car body filler by chance?

 

On another note, I was busy early this evening finishing the track and my good lady came into the garage and asked "Is there anything I can do?" Well I was gobsmacked, but quickly gave her some acrylic dark earth, and a brush, and she's finished the test plank!!!

 

So tomorrow I may have a bash with my WWS grasses and my home made applicator.

If it doesn't work, it'll be a Greenscenes one on order!!

 

Jinty

[Tove]

Tove,

 

I love the road surface, and the uneven attitude to the grass bank and fence.

Can I ask what you used for the road? Car body filler by chance?

 

 

 

Jinty

Hi Jinty,

 

The road (surface) is made out of 240 grit sand paper.

It was something i picked up off of a talented German modeler (but i forget his name for now) on another fourm.

But rather than clogging up rod`s thread,this link will show you how i did it;

 

http://www.protomodeler.com/index.php?/topic/2631-small-practice-pieces/

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[pwr]

Hi Brian and Chris.

 

No, I didn't let the first layer dry before doing the second.  I thought it was necessary to keep the glue wet to get a decent circuit.  I just refilled the applicator with whatever was next and then sprayed glue onto the first layer.  If the glue is dry, how do you get the circuit for the second layer?

 

 

Rod

Rod - I don't actually think you are making a circuit. The ground is simply there to get a high voltage differential. The fibres stand up because of the static charge imparted as they pass through the mesh. I am not an electrician s I could be wrong. Someone smarter than me will no doubt be able to advise.

 

Paul,R

[Dmudriver]

Hi Paul.

 

Like you, I'm  no electrician - nor, for that matter, have I any sort of engineering background.  I assumed that, because these applicators all come with batteries and a crocodile clip that has to contact the wet adhesive, the intention was to create a circuit: from that, it followed that the adhesive must be kept wet.   However, I look forward to being enlightened!!!!

 

In the meantime, as the process works, I'll keep following it!! - but not until after this weekend when I've got the Greenscenes Flockit.

 

I tried the balloon trick - it didn't work!  Maybe that post was written on 1st April!!!  

 

Rod

[Tove]

Rod,

 

These are a couple of  explanation`s that Gordon Gravett gives in his book;

'Modelling Grassland and Landscape Detailing'

 

THE THEORY OF STATIC GRASS

 

"I`m not very hot on electronics,but,if  you`ll bear with me,i`ll try and explain the principle behind the static grass technique.

     Any object normally consists of an equal number of positively charged protons and negatively charged electrons.

This makes the object neutral and it has no natural attraction to anything else.Static electricity is normally caused when two materials rub against one

another or are pulled apart and the positive (or negative) charge of one is transferred to the other.

This causes an imbalance between the protons and electrons and, consequently, anything with an excess positive charge is attracted to anything that has an excess negative.

And,to a lesser degree,anything anything with an excess charge will also be attracted to anything neutral.In the same way,any number of items with the same excess charge

(positive or negative) are repelled by one another.

    Because an imbalance can be created by abrasion,if a number of fibers are shaken vigorously in a nylon bottle,they become imbalanced and therefore repel each other.

If these were then puffed out onto a neutral sticky glued surface,apart from the slight attraction to the surface,the effect is they stand up because they are trying to repel the fibers all around them.For the same reason,though,they also repel the fibers at the outer edge,causing these to lean out from the others."

 

HOW DO THEY WORK?

 

"The electronic wizardry that occurs within the machines is way beyond my grasp but,as i understand it,the fibers receive a high voltage electrostatic charge within the reservior of the applicator and this causes them to become negatively charged.A grounding wire is then attatched to the area of the model that requires grass and this has a positive pole.It is for this reason that the adhesive needs to be electrically conductive and the best results are obtained with the grounding wire actually making contact with it to complete the circuit with least resistance.The negative charged fibers repel each other and are propelled from the reservior through a mesh and are then attracted to the positive pole of the grounded area.As the fibers rain down to reach the sticky ground ,they stand up because,all having an excess charge,they are all trying to keep as far away as possible from all those around them.And the denser the covering of fibers,the more upright they will stand.The immidiate advantage of an electronic device over a puffer bottle is that ,apart from the increased power,you you also have a grounding wire of the opposite pole to that of the fibers - so they have a stronger attraction to the glued surface."

 

Writtren by, Gordon Gravett.'Modelling Grassland and Landscape Detailing',

 

I hope that gives you more of an idea on how things work!.

 

Cheers,

Brian.

 

[Dmudriver]

Rod,

 

These are a couple of  explanation`s that Gordon Gravett gives in his book;

'Modelling Grassland and Landscape Detailing'

 

THE THEORY OF STATIC GRASS

 

"I`m not very hot on electronics,but,if  you`ll bear with me,i`ll try and explain the principle behind the static grass technique.

     Any object normally consists of an equal number of positively charged protons and negatively charged electrons.

This makes the object neutral and it has no natural attraction to anything else.Static electricity is normally caused when two materials rub against one

another or are pulled apart and the positive (or negative) charge of one is transferred to the other.

This causes an imbalance between the protons and electrons and, consequently, anything with an excess positive charge is attracted to anything that has an excess negative.

And,to a lesser degree,anything anything with an excess charge will also be attracted to anything neutral.In the same way,any number of items with the same excess charge

(positive or negative) are repelled by one another.

    Because an imbalance can be created by abrasion,if a number of fibers are shaken vigorously in a nylon bottle,they become imbalanced and therefore repel each other.

If these were then puffed out onto a neutral sticky glued surface,apart from the slight attraction to the surface,the effect is they stand up because they are trying to repel the fibers all around them.For the same reason,though,they also repel the fibers at the outer edge,causing these to lean out from the others."

 

HOW DO THEY WORK?

 

"The electronic wizardry that occurs within the machines is way beyond my grasp but,as i understand it,the fibers receive a high voltage electrostatic charge within the reservior of the applicator and this causes them to become negatively charged.A grounding wire is then attatched to the area of the model that requires grass and this has a positive pole.It is for this reason that the adhesive needs to be electrically conductive and the best results are obtained with the grounding wire actually making contact with it to complete the circuit with least resistance.The negative charged fibers repel each other and are propelled from the reservior through a mesh and are then attracted to the positive pole of the grounded area.As the fibers rain down to reach the sticky ground ,they stand up because,all having an excess charge,they are all trying to keep as far away as possible from all those around them.And the denser the covering of fibers,the more upright they will stand.The immidiate advantage of an electronic device over a puffer bottle is that ,apart from the increased power,you you also have a grounding wire of the opposite pole to that of the fibers - so they have a stronger attraction to the glued surface."

 

Writtren by, Gordon Gravett.'Modelling Grassland and Landscape Detailing',

 

I hope that gives you more of an idea on how things work!.

 

Cheers,

Brian.

 

Thanks, Brian, that does really help.

 

I suppose the next question then is: what happens to subsequent layers if the bottom ones are still negatively charged? In theory they should repel the new negatively charged ones raining down on them. This assumes, however, that they are still negatively charged. Does being stuck in the positively charged glue then alter their polarity? In which case they would attract the ones coming down.

 

If no one has a answer, I'll check it after the weekend when I use the Flockit applicator.

 

In the meantime, I've CVs to change on the locos and units that will be running on the layout at Wigan at the weekend - to make them more suitable for a longer, faster layout and also for operators unused to the fact that locos can have varied settings!

 

More soon.

 

Rod

 

Rod

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

Further to my last message, I've found this WWS video:  https://www.youtube.com/embed/v-E_ElExUts?feature=player_embedded

 

It shows grass being layered whilst each layer is still wet.  Is it the right way, or the wrong way?  I'm beginning to suspect there's a few ways of doing static grass.  So, until I get really good at it, this is how I'll do it for now.

 

Now on with the reprogramming!!

 

Rod​

Edited October 1, 2015 by Dmudriver

[Simond]

Static charge does eventually dissipate, ideally the glue sets before that happens and the strands fall over. 

 

On a dry day, it will take a while, on a damp foggy day, you'll struggle to get any effect at all.

 

Just becaue the strands were negative when they hit the glue, this doesn't mean that they will still be negative a few minutes later.

 

HTH

Simon