Tom J Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I've decided to have a bash at building one of the Highland's more modest station structures - that which existed at Salzcraggie and Borrobol Platforms on the FNL. http://www.ambaile.org/en/item/photograph_zoom.jsp?item_id=49545&zoom=2 is one of the few pictures I have. I can't find a single shot in any of my books. This is the first building I've attempted for some time and the first in 2mm scale full stop! I have drawn a blank trying to find any drawings of the buildings, which appear to have been identical but neither of which have survived (I don't think this design was used elsewhere?) What do people do to represent the capped timber construction? Do Evergreen do sheets at the right sort of size, or is it i case of making some other kind of representation? If anyone can help with pictures or drawings, or examples of other HR timber structures and how they did them (especially in 2mm scale), I would be most grateful indeed. I did try Ian Allan at Waterloo today for a copy of the new HRS book on 'Lost stations of the FNL', but no joy... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Alder Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Ernie is your friend when it comes to obscure Highland railwayania- here- is a shot of Borrobol, with its customer operated signal, but there are photos of other structures in his collections as well- here-. Evergreen do a range of board and batten sheets, but they may be too large for 2mm, being mainly for the HO modeller. The various wooden buildings that dotted the Highland stations seem to have been adapted to suit their situations but were built around common window sizes etc. and I have always built by a mixture of counting battens and going from door sizes, but then I make no claim to being a scale modeller. You have picked a challenge with this one with its curved roof, and I look forward to seeing your model progress-the Highland has lots of small scale modelling potential that is often overlooked. I presume you know that the Highland Railway society has a list of published drawings and also a collection of their own and Lochgorm kits does a 2mm range. I don't know if that extends to window etches as I couldn't access that part of their site tonight but they do them in 4mm and this had made my modelling life a lot easier. HTH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 Thanks very much for that - I did check but the Evergreen stuff's smallest size is too big. Ernie wasn't my friend but he is now! There is a limit to how many societies a man can afford to join(!) - if a drawing exists it would be good to get my hands on it, and if they do doors and windows, that's perhaps a reason to join the society! The pictures I had didn't show to greatest advantage the 'pagoda' roof. This could get interesting, especially since I want to model it in dilapidated condition, post closure, perhaps with the roof timbers exposed. I am wondering whether a former might be the way forward, to make up curved 'timbers' over which to lay a the roof. If it all becomes too much, I'll have to default to the other kind of shelter, as found for example on the 'facing' platforms at places like Helmsdale and Brora. Any further assistance and advice gratefully received. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Alder Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 -Here- is a PDF of the various magazine articles with HR connections- some are quite old but are usually obtainable in some form. Lochgorm supply direct and there is an-index- for the first issues on the HRS website, but I think you will be scratchbuilding most of this I'm afraid. Still that's why its called railway modelling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 Thank you very much for those links. The up side shelter at Brora is listed in there as a backup I always inadvertently choose something difficult! A pagoda roof and no drawings sounds about the size of it! You are absolutely right, though. If I could just buy it, I wouldn't have the, er, thrill of making it! I imagine the new(ish) book I referred to must have some pictures in it of the two 'platforms' where the buildings existed. There may have been other sites, but none that I'm aware of. Then I guess it's time to start counting timbers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Well, I spent a good couple of hours on this the other night and fried my brain in the process. When guess-timating buildings with no bricks, and in this case no picture where the timbers can be made out with total satisfaction, it's hard to get a datum to work from. I have pictures of other small HR timber structures from all over the place, and I feel sure that the timbers are either 3" or 4" wide. Most likely the latter. Ernie did indeed have a shot of Borrobol, here http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/5648411237/in/set-72157626440055275/lightbox/ Working with a red pen on a printed copy of the picture here http://www.ambaile.org/en/item/photograph_zoom.jsp?item_id=49545&zoom=2 (sorry, forum wouldn't let me embed it!), I reckon that there are 6 timbers under the window in the end wall, and seven either side. That makes the building 20 timbers wide, and therefore 5' or 6'8". I reckon the front wall is 7 timbers from the corner to the door, and the same between the doors. There is then the small matter of the angle and depth of the bay window, which I can work out with reference to the overhang of the roof and the glazing. The sense check becomes the windows and doors. I think the windows are 12" square panes, ignoring the depth of the frames. This accords with (3 x )4" timbers. The window is therefore 2' wide and 3' high, and the top of the window is 5' off the floor. This is the point where I become less sure. That makes the doors only 5' high, too, because they are level. That doesn't feel right as I look at the building. Thing is though, I know that the HR did build shelters with doors that low. I am 6'8" so I tend to remember these things. I sat in the shelter on the down platform at Rogart once, and struggled to get out again afterwards! I'm just not totally convinced that it's the case here, and feel sure that the building I am trying to create must have been of greater stature to justify a properly tiled roof (with a concave hip halfway down!) rather than the usual HR flat roof or corrugated iron sheet. Extrapolating the dimensions out to 5" timbers (an odd size, and larger, I am convinced, than all the other similar structures I have decent images of) gives a door height of 6'3 and a building depth of 8'4, which seems somewhat generous but would make the building about 16' wide, which might be about right? I would still have to duck, but not crawl, to get in! To add to my confusion, I looked at the shelters which remain, and for example, Helmsdale (Down side) and Forsinard, are identical except that Forsinard has a hobbit-height doorway, and Helmsdale's is larger, to the same height as the tops of the windows. Nothing is as standard as it looks. I think I have now succeeded in confusing myself! Sadly, neither of the original buildings survive, unlike most of the other timber HR platform buildings on the line. Whilst the base may still be there at Borrobol, which is right next to a level crossing, it's a few hundred miles from me here in Middlesex! What do other people think, please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 ... I feel sure that the timbers are either 3" or 4" wide. Most likely the latter.... I wonder if that might be the problem? I am not an HR expert by any means, but I did measure various HR wooden buildings in the 1970s, including some smaller ones, and all had 6" planks with half-round beading. The text with Henry Orbach's careful drawings of buildings at Garve station in the 1952 Model Railway News mention 6½" planks with joints capped by 1" half-round beading - he signed his articles with an architect's qualification, so I imagine he would be quite careful about dimensions. If the planks are 6½" instead of 4", your 5' doorway becomes 8'1½", which sounds altogether more likely. One of the many HR modellers on here will surely have chapter and verse on the standard sizes the carpenters used... Best of luck with the model - I hope you go ahead with it. Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Thanks Graham. I think I got it right about standardisation being a deceptive fallacy! I never noticed the different door heights at Helmsdale and Forsinard until today. I always understood the larger buildings to be 6 or 6 1/2", but I can't believe this building had doors over eight feet tall. There are no lights over the doors, either. I have built up a substructure in styrene this afternoon, based on 5" timbers, to get a feel for working with the stuff again after a long time away, and get an impression of how the building looks at rough scale size. It looks about right! Still at a bit of a loss as to how to represent the cap strips from scratch in 2mm scale. Given that the building is relatively simple geometrically, up to roof level anyway, I am left wondering whether 3D printing or good old etched brass might be the answer - but in either case I'd want the dimensions spot on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 I had always understood the HR buildings to use 61/2" planks with 1" capping strips too but couldn't find a reference to confirm it. As to door height, I was looking at Plockton Station on Google Maps earlier and the doors there go right up to the eaves. They are the same height as a luton van parked outside so easily 8'+. As to how to reproduce this in model form how about Slaters 1mm planked styrene with .010" rod in the grooves? Not exactly to scale but pretty close. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 I'm pretty sure you are right regarding the signal boxes and larger station buildings, but still not comfortable that 6.5" timbers were used for the smaller buildings. At 6.5" wide, this would be enormous! The window casements alone would be over six feet tall. There has to have been a smaller size, but what that was, and whether it was used for the buildings at Borrobol and Salzcraggie, is still questionable! I did think about your suggestion, Natalie, or something similar anyway, but I reckon it would force the microstrip onto a 45 degree angle as the edge dropped into the groove. I have been thinking about maybe using card instead, but I'm not sure I could get it fine enough... This is as much about me learning what I can and can't do in 2mm scale as it is about the HR building issue, I suppose! Fortunately, it's the only building I need for the time being! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 I don't quite understand how you equate a plank width of 6.5in with a window casement height over 6 ft tall. How are you working the vertical measurements out? There must be some flaw in your assumptions, I fear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 OK, it's getting late but I have successfully proved to myself with my first attempt at building the thing that I can still wield Pythagoras' theorem today, so here goes: As per the picture, the window is 6 planks wide. 6 x 6.5 = 39 inches = 3' 3" Panes are clearly square and there are two panes, one above the other. 3'3" x 2 = 6' 6". Just for the window. Take into account the height off the floor and suddenly we're not dealing with a small platform waiting shelter but a barn - and I'm going to need an HO scale litter bin! Therefore, I submit, those planks in that picture are never 6.5" wide. I think they are probably nearer 4" wide, and the cap strips maybe 3/4" rather than 1". I am kicking myself that I have taken lots of pictures, with model making in mind, of various HR structures over the years, and have never had a tape measure with me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Whoa, hold it there Jonesy, on an issue of nomenclature, you said casement when you meant frame. I beg your forgiveness. I still think that window is never 6'6" high. That makes the bin taller than my ex-mother-in-law. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 If the planks are six and a half inches wide that would make each side of the door roughly seven feet wide, I reckon that is about right. If they were 4" that would make either side 4'6" wide and the door about 2'6" wide. That doorway looks wider than a standard door opening to me so I reckon 6.5" is right. Interestingly the window is only five planks wide if you count them above the window rather than below. Which would give a window opening about 2' 8 1/2". Given the difference in the thickness of the frames to the side and top and bottom that would give a height for the opening of about five feet. It seems about three quarters the height of the door so that won't be far out. Comparison with the height of the bin would suggest something in that order. Of course we don't know that the glass panes are exactly square, do we? Presumable the building is tall enough to stand up in at the back so that would suggest a height at the rear of the sloping roof of a minimum of around 6'6". The front is going to be two or three feet taller than that. Just a thought but is that a brick base? If it is, can you see the brick courses well enough to count them on the original photo? that would give you a basis to calculate the vertical dimensions. As for the modelling technique, I suggested using .010" rod, the round red stuff, not microstrip. It doesn't have corners so it doesn't matter what angle it goes in at. Slater's planked plastikard has quite deep grooves which is why I suggested it rather than the Evergreen version, so I think the rod should go in quite nicely for about half its depth and give you the half round profile for the beading. If not you could scribe the grooves a bit deeper and wider before you cut the sheet. Or you could scribe grooves in plain styrene to the correct scale pitch for the beading. If you were really keen you could cut strips of .005" Evergreen styrene and lay them alternately with the rod on plain styrene sheet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 I would suggest that the window panes are wider than they are tall. Using the entrance as a rough guide, maybe 6ft 6in tall and 4ft 6in wide, then the building is about 20 or 21ft long and 10ft 6in tall overall at the front. Window panes are maybe 2ft 6in wide and 2ft tall. With these measurements, most of the planks are about 6.5in wide, though a few are clearly narrower in the photo, particularly the ones below the windows and some around and above the entrance. The image below was manipulated in Photoshop using the basic dimensions shown above. It should come out at 4mm scale, all being well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 I think the photo is of the Up platform shelter at Forsinard? If so, here are some photos I took of it in August 1997 with my measuring stick in shot - it has 12" divisions (3" at the top). Blowing up the images and using on-screen dividers, the planks come out at 6½", the windows 4'6" high, sill to lintel, the doorway 3'10" wide by 6'6" high, and the building height 10'6". cheers Graham edited because I can't tell Down from Up... should have just said the Inverness-bound platform shelter! ... I also can't count.... window height 4'6" not 3'6" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted May 7, 2012 Author Share Posted May 7, 2012 Graham et al, thank you; I stand corrected - and am going to have to make myself a measuring stick! That interior shot completely changed my visual perception. I should point out that I do find these things more difficult because even at 6'6", I would have to duck to get in the door of that place! That and I'm not sure that modelling in a new scale has helped me sense-check. The little shelter at Rogart (which I nearly couldn't get out of!) has clearly skewed my perception of the general scale of some of these buildings. Right, then... now at 6.5" timber width, back to calculating the dimensions of the building I actually want to build! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 Ok, well I think I've cracked it now. Thank you all for your patience and suggestions! I've taken the building to be 9' tall, and the ridge of the roof to be a further 5' up, so excluding the bay window, the footprint is 9'9 x 22' 9. Having 'striped' a printout of the best image with a highlighter to make the counting and scaling process easier, I think I'm there. After all the comments I'd seen on here I downloaded Sketchup last night, so here goes: That's more or less the view the photograph at the top of the thread gave us. That's from the other end, and here's how I am thinking of doing the roof sub-structure: The two buildings show different amounts of curvature to the 'hipped' part of the roof. Salzcraggie appeared to have very little curvature to it, such as to be barely discernible in 2mm scale - I also can't fathom how to do arcs successfully in Sketchup! The gaps in the roof base are to allow it to 'breathe' if I build it in styrene, with the roof and walls as two separate components, which I think remains the plan. Just got to work out exactly how it will be assembled, and I reckon it'll be time to crack out the knife! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 Bingo! I can't for the life of me find a way of rendering the roof covering where the shape is a compound curve, or measuring the length of the arcs, but that's within the art of the possible. Has anyone any advice, please, regarding which way I might cut the pieces? Would you even try to interlock them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Is the roof profile actually curved? I always thought they were a two-pitched profile. The idea of the impecunious Highland Railway going to the trouble and expense of steam bending timber for rafters on wayside station shelters is not convincing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 I agree that it would not have been in character! The very first picture I linked to at the top of the thread looks like two flat pitches, except at the end of the exposed timber on the rear left corner where there appears to be some curvature. Looking at this shot I am wondering if the bottom section only had a curve in it? Not having a single really good image is not helping. This one of Ernie's is reasonable but I can't make out a hard change of angle anywhere along those ridges. I cannot think of anywhere on the HR where timber buildings had curved rafters, and it would certainly help if that were so, but don't think I am seeing exclusively straight lines here. As I said, at 2mm scale will anyone really be able to tell in any case? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 Bit of progress: I dropped a clanger when making the walls - having used up all my microstrip, I cut the doors from behind without reversing the measurements! I'll do that again when some more arrives. The only real remaining issue is how to form the bay window's glazing. There's a very slight discrepancy in the roof. I may do that again, but I'll finish this one to iron out any other issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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