Dapol 00 Rectank and Lime Wagon

[FelixM]

Hi Folks,

 

Dapol has released a 'BR' Version of its Rectank, Product Code 4F032003. Also Dapol offers a 'Peak Lime' Wagon (Product Code B830) which is marked as Era 4 1948-1956 by Hattons. Because I am a newcomer to modelling UK railways I would like to ask if they really are suitable for a BR Transition Era layout, and if so why they don't sport a running number.

 

Thanks in advance,

Felix

[petethemole]

You had me going there, for a moment I thought I could get some RTR Rectanks for my WW2 trains.

[Fat Controller]

Hi Folks,

 

Dapol has released a 'BR' Version of its Rectank, Product Code 4F032003. Also Dapol offers a 'Peak Lime' Wagon (Product Code B830) which is marked as Era 4 1948-1956 by Hattons. Because I am a newcomer to modelling UK railways I would like to ask if they really are suitable for a BR Transition Era layout, and if so why they don't sport a running number.

 

Thanks in advance,

Felix

They weren't taken into 'Pool' usage during WW2, so remained privately owned- I think examples of both types lasted into the mid-1960s, carrying the fleet numbers of the private owners, rather than a BR number.

[TheSignalEngineer]

There was a rectangular tank owned by Associated Chemicals Ltd, livery issued by Dapol a couple of years back. One of these regularly worked through Curzon St yard in 1966 going to/ from Aston Gas GF near Duddeston. I think it carried the number 981 but am not certain.

[Pennine MC]

...I would like to ask if they really are suitable for a BR Transition Era layout, and if so why they don't sport a running number.

 

As the man said, not all privately owned wagons were pooled, mostly only those for coal, iron ore and roadstone. More specialised types remained with their owners. I've no idea why anyone would describe the tank as a 'BR' wagon because it patently isn't; it's difficult to confirm their veracity without knowledge of any photos that they've been based on but they do look OK as 'generic' PO wagons.

 

You had me going there, for a moment I thought I could get some RTR Rectanks for my WW2 trains.

 

Having bought a Chivers 'pigeon van' today, I dont like to get too hung up on incorrect terminology but I must admit it irks me how this particular misnomer has arisen. It may be a logical foreshortening for 'rectangular tank' but that doesnt make it a Rectank as BR would have known it.

[hmrspaul]

I've traced a photo of this product http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/product/37914/4F032003_Dapol_Rectangular_Tank_Wagon_number_TBA

This is a "sort of" generic livery. There were plenty of Rectangular tanks in the BR era - a few were newly built after 1948 - but they were privately owned and would have a largish cast plate with the owners name and address. There are a number of late survivors here, although none had a TOPS plate http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/yorkshiretardistillers I've never heard of BR owning any.

 

I took a photo of an ACC tank c1968 - 67 in a freight hauled by an English Electric type 3 (later cl. 37) It used to be on my fotopic site, but I don't think it has been transferred to Zenfolio.

 

http://www.ehattons.com/33233/Dapol_Model_Railways_B830_Lime_Wagon_Peak_Lime_48_/StockDetail.aspx There were hundreds, probably thousands of vans which remained in private ownership, mainly for lime (although a lot were opens with tilts) and Salt. However, I cannot see a company called "Peak Lime" amongst them - nor does the name come up with an English Company via Google. It would be interesting to know what Dapol based this livery on. So, design of van is OK for early BR, but question mark over the livery.

 

Paul Bartlett

 

PS NOT RECTANKS !!! PLEASE These are Rectanks http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/rectank http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brrectanks

[Wild Boar Fell]

Hi Paul,

Sorry this is off topic but what are the differences between the WW1 rectanks in your first link and the 60's built ones in the second, there is the ride control, buffers and chain boxes, but is the rest virtually the same?

Great photos by the way.

 

Regards

Wild Boar Fell

[hmrspaul]

Hi Paul,

Sorry this is off topic but what are the differences between the WW1 rectanks in your first link and the 60's built ones in the second, there is the ride control, buffers and chain boxes, but is the rest virtually the same?

Great photos by the way.

 

Regards

Wild Boar Fell

 

I haven't done a detailed comparison. BR frequently brushed off 40 + year old drawings of specially constructed wagons, and built new, but with updated running gear.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Pennine MC]

Hi Paul,

Sorry this is off topic but what are the differences between the WW1 rectanks in your first link and the 60's built ones in the second, there is the ride control, buffers and chain boxes, but is the rest virtually the same?

 

 

I've not studied them in depth either but I believe (supported by looking at the side elevations of the ends in Paul's shots) that the BR wagons had a longer ramp section, which may also have been at a slightly sharper angle.

[Wild Boar Fell]

Thanks both of you for that, I shall try and do some more digging.

 

Regards,

Wild Boar Fell

[FelixM]

Thank you all for your kind and useful answers which include almost everything I need to know inclusively the fact I have confused Rectangular Tanks with Rectanks. Sorry for this.

 

So the Rectangular tanks would benefit from an owner sign. How about the lime vans? Are there any 'typical' liveries of big lime companies? Or asked the other way round: Which of Dapols liverys are correct for the 50s period?

 

And another question arose while reading the answers: Paul, you mentioned Salt vans. I had a quick look and the only difference of lime and salt vans seems to be the missing roof door. Is this correct?

 

What disappoints me a bit is that I cannot find a prototype image neither of Rectangular Tanks nor of salt / lime vans in use post 1948 on the web. Can anyone help me?

 

Once again thanks in advance,

Felix

[hmrspaul]

Thank you all for your kind and useful answers which include almost everything I need to know inclusively the fact I have confused Rectangular Tanks with Rectanks. Sorry for this.

 

So the Rectangular tanks would benefit from an owner sign. How about the lime vans? Are there any 'typical' liveries of big lime companies? Or asked the other way round: Which of Dapols liverys are correct for the 50s period?

 

And another question arose while reading the answers: Paul, you mentioned Salt vans. I had a quick look and the only difference of lime and salt vans seems to be the missing roof door. Is this correct?

 

What disappoints me a bit is that I cannot find a prototype image neither of Rectangular Tanks nor of salt / lime vans in use post 1948 on the web. Can anyone help me?

 

Once again thanks in advance,

Felix

 

The internet is not the main source of information on BR and earlier, books and magazines are. It took over 250 pages to list the NON Nationalised, Non Pool wagons in 1948 - and this excluded the oil tank wagons of which there were many thousands (half where SMBP).

 

Paul Bartlett

[Fat Controller]

To add to what Paul has said, the main source of information on wagons of the BR and earlier eras is in books; whilst I appreciate that it would be difficult, perhaps even impossible, to find books on BR wagons and freight in Berlin, it might be worth looking on the 'Net for copies of the various Cheona albums of wagon photos. 'British Railway Vans', number 3 in the series, has a photo of a Shaka salt van taken at Birmingham in 1958; 'British Railway Private-Owner Wagons- Opens and Hoppers', No 9 in the series, has a photo of a newly-repainted 'Murgatroyd's' salt wagon taken in 1960 (this isn't one with a peaked roof, but with a radiused top plank on the ends to support a wagon sheet).

'Peak Lime' would appear to be a brand name for lime produced by Buxton Lime Industries, these days owned by Tarmac, but originally an ICI subsiduary, I believe.

As for the rectangular tanks; the only identification on most seems to have been an owner's plate; the load (most usually tar in later days) soon obscured anything else.

[Pennine MC]

What disappoints me a bit is that I cannot find a prototype image neither of Rectangular Tanks nor of salt / lime vans in use post 1948 on the web.

 

The tanks were definitely used into the 60s (though never common and getting progressively rarer), I've seen enough shots in books and mags to satisfy myself of that. The vans, also never that numerous, would probably only have been seen in appropriate areas or on specific routes.

[hmrspaul]

'Peak Lime' would appear to be a brand name for lime produced by Buxton Lime Industries, these days owned by Tarmac, but originally an ICI subsiduary, I believe.

As for the rectangular tanks; the only identification on most seems to have been an owner's plate; the load (most usually tar in later days) soon obscured anything else.

 

Brian

 

Have you seen photos of this livery? The 1948 listing has 230 ICI Lime Divn Buxton open tilts bought in 1937 and 4 Cottage type vans from 1911 registered by TVR - which I take to be Taff Vale Rly (but why are they from Buxton?), but none of them have apparently had a simple number - all were 4 figure numbers from 3000 and often had an L or C prefix.

 

Paul Bartlett

[hmrspaul]

The tanks were definitely used into the 60s (though never common and getting progressively rarer), I've seen enough shots in books and mags to satisfy myself of that. The vans, also never that numerous, would probably only have been seen in appropriate areas or on specific routes.

 

And, as I have already indicated there are rectangular tanks in my YTD collection, including close ups showing the yellow data panels introduced in the late 1960s http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/yorkshiretardistillers/e1fd9d7ec http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/yorkshiretardistillers/e2f51968f . and as others have said ACC lasted passed the mid 1960s - it was only about that time that BR insisted on being told what Privately owned wagons were being used and this forced a lot of condemnations. These files are now at the HMRS HQ at Swanwick Junction.

 

 

Paul Bartlett

[Fat Controller]

Brian

 

Have you seen photos of this livery? The 1948 listing has 230 ICI Lime Divn Buxton open tilts bought in 1937 and 4 Cottage type vans from 1911 registered by TVR - which I take to be Taff Vale Rly (but why are they from Buxton?), but none of them have apparently had a simple number - all were 4 figure numbers from 3000 and often had an L or C prefix.

 

Paul Bartlett

No photos of the livery, Paul, but looking at various web-sites dealing with lime, rather than wagons, there were quite a few references to 'Peak Lime' as a brand.

On the subject of rectangular tanks; were there any in that small fleet of tanks operated by the NCB (via their Thomas Ness subsiduary?) in South Wales? I was sure I saw some in a photo behind a TOPS-numbered 68er, which would have been in 1973 or so.

[hmrspaul]

 

No photos of the livery, Paul, but looking at various web-sites dealing with lime, rather than wagons, there were quite a few references to 'Peak Lime' as a brand.

On the subject of rectangular tanks; were there any in that small fleet of tanks operated by the NCB (via their Thomas Ness subsiduary?) in South Wales? I was sure I saw some in a photo behind a TOPS-numbered 68er, which would have been in 1973 or so.

 

There weren't any when we visited TN some years later. However, my mention of some rectangular tanks being built just post nationalisation is to some built for the NCB (IIRC). The early BR period PO tank wagons are rather a mystery, they (the RCH) don't seem to have listed them, as they did all the other POs and the files now held by the HMRS suggest that BR didn't really know what was around for many years. For example (now OT) SMBP had a very elderly fleet, but it was divided into those they considered suitable for only local use (I think they kept grease boxes for years) and others that were of reasonable quality - I was going to refer to one I photographed in Feltham in 1968, but it appears to be one I haven't reloaded from the Fotopic debacle.

 

Peter Fidczuk could almost certainly answer your question about Thomas Ness.

 

Paul Bartlett