Future proofing for DCC

[SNCF stephen]

Hi,

 

So I am currently looking at eventually going DCC. Having seen that there are sound units coming for the French N Gauge market it has made me think that it would make the whole experience a bit better (assuming that the running quality is much better?). However, I am not able to afford the big change over for a while yet so I need to ask for a bit of help.

 

I am currently building my modular French layout and I am almost at the point where I will be glueing down and ballasting the turnouts on the main station. They are all Kato #4 turnouts that I doubt I will control by DCC (too much hassle for what I want). Therefore I am looking at future proofing them so that they will operate under DCC but not compromise my standard DC operation. I know that the turnouts can be modified via the small screw underneath the turnout so is there a setting that could satisfy both DCC and DC? Or will I have to rip the track up and relay it if I want to convert later? One thing I do not want to do is halt all of the progress on my layout while I save up for DCC because that is incredibly frustrating.

 

I am also looking at the costs of chipping my fleet of locos and autorails. I have quite a number of them and I would not know where to start with these. I know some of the newer ones might have a socket, but some of the chassis on the Autorail would need to be manually altered. Does anyone offer these types of services and if they do then how much would it cost to get them chipped (a ball park figure of each unit would be useful).

 

I have yet to make my mind up about the system I will use but Gaugemaster looks good and there are a few others in the intermediate range that could also work quite well.

 

Finally, in terms of sound. Can this be retro fitted to some models? I have seen some excellent French N gauge sound trains!

 

Many thanks for any help.

[Oldddudders]

The good news about having DCC in you future is that you need spend very little extra now. A layout that has been wired in accordance with good practice for DC will be very easy to convert to DCC. I am not familiar with the Kato points - or indeed much else in 2mm/N scale - but live frog, with the polarity switched as the points are thrown, will work best, exactly as in larger scales.

 

Locos that run well on DC will run well on DCC if the decoder is tuned to their needs - sometimes a certain amount of experimenting with CVs (you'll quickly come to terms with those and their customising role) is needed to optimise matters. Locos that do not run well on DC, especially if the problem is with pickups, will not be any better for being equipped with a decoder. Do your tuning of the locos on DC and there will be fewer disappointments later.

 

After-market sound is available, but may be limited in scope in the smallest scales - where you squeeze in a decoder and speaker can be enough of a problem in 4mm modelling.

[Adrian Wintle]

Kato #4 turnouts are easy to convert to DCC if you ever decide to go that route - you should set them to be live both sides (not dependent on turnout position) and to have a switched frog* (by setting the screws underneath) - use insulated joiners, separate droppers and section switches in the sidings/loops if you want those sections to be switchable under DC (i.e. don't wire it to depend on the turnout position - this is a future-proofing concern, not a reliability one). Decoders like the Digitrax DS52 http://www.digitrax....-decoders/ds52/ can control Kato two-wire turnouts, and can be added later as they just connect to the wires.

 

Most locos can be chipped, but it will depend on the chassis architecture (and how much room is in the body) as to how easy it would be. It is hard to give an estimate of effort without seeing the actual items. It also depends a bit on the existing lighting, if any. Sound is also possible, but tends to need a larger loco - in North American terms, adding sound to a large cab diesel like an E7/8 or a PA is relatively easy, adding it to a small hood diesel like a GP7/9 is substantially more difficult.

 

*the only reason not to have the frog switched is if you are using these turnouts to make a reversing loop and want to run out over the trailing point blades (not very prototypical, but it works very well with Kato turnouts)

 

Note: For those who don't know, the Kato #4 turnots have two screws underneath whose positions determine settings - one sets the frog to be either dead/unswitched or live/switched, while the other sets the turnout to either be live both sides or to have the non-selected route to be dead. The #6 turnouts do not have this flexibility.

 

Adrian

[SNCF stephen]

Thank you to both of you for the feedback.

 

It looks like I will need to get a few more bits and pieces to enable good DC and DCC operation. Namely insulating joiners and more track power feeds although I am concerned I would need to do a fair bit of rewiring to achieve what I want from the layout in the meantime. Just thinking aloud, I would have to solder a fair few switches for my layout (layout plan of the main station below).

 

 

At the moment I have just a single power feed which is away from the station. If I have understood you correctly, you are saying to switch all of the turnouts to live and insulate them. Then have each section individually powered via droppers which would need to be activated by a separate switch to the turnout.

 

In terms of my stock and the conversion to DCC, I have a huge variety of stock that ranges from extremely small maintenance vehicles to larger Diesels and Railcars that should be able to accommodate a DCC chip with no problem. It is the costs associated with buying and fitting the chips that is also an issue. Although, saying that if I am incorrect about that I might be able to do this sooner rather than later.

[Adrian Wintle]

I would definitely consider having insulating joiners on the sections and having the frogs live. The first will simplify DCC implementation and the second will assist the shorter wheelbase or pickup-challenged locos to run through the turnouts. At a minimum I'd put insulated joiners in both rails as marked in red and feeds on the sections marked in green (assuming a feed at each end of the main line).

There is no need to insulate both sides of the frog vee as the Kato frogs are insulated from the rails.

 

You can still implement DCC if the turnouts are used to control the power to the rails, but you lose the operational flexibility of DCC and you cannot keep sound locos alive when running past them (e.g. a train sitting at the main platform would be 'off' if you ran a train past it in the first loop, so its sound would turn off.

 

The other advantage to this is that you put less reliance on the Kato rail joiners to carry current for long distances. The are ok, but I do notice a performance dropoff when the train is far from the feed. I use Kato track to try various configurations and on occasion have set it up to that it has an oval run in about 12' x 6'.

 

Adrian

[SNCF stephen]

Thanks for that Adrian, I have had a look at the track diagram and was wondering if I needed a dropped on the section marked in blue? Or would they be covered from the main line feed?

 

I am also looking at just wiring up the main loop for DC operation (as it might only be short term), this will allow me to run trains and not give me a massive amount of fuss with the wiring.

 

One thing I am wondering about is whether I should solder wires onto the Kato rails from underneath or buy some more of their power points. I suspect soldering will be cheaper but I am concerned about melting the plastic.

 

I am examining the Gaugemaster Pro system. I am wondering what would be the best way to have a go on one of these before I buy? Model Railway show perhaps? Are there any stockists that have a layout available to test on in the West Mids?

 

Thanks again.

 

Stephen

[Adrian Wintle]

I was assuming that you wouldn't be using the top loop (where the sidings are) to store trains, so the feed at the top would cover all of that loop. I believe that the Kato points can be fed from anywhere if you set them to have both roads powered, so a single feed at the top would work.

 

For wiring up just the main loop, I'd still put in the insulated joiners and a second power feed, but then connect it to one of the Kato 3-way splitters to avoid dealing with switches initially (Part 24-827)

 

I seem to recall that you can get wired rail joiners (Part 24-818, I believe), which may be a better way to go. I'd be concerned about melting the plastic too.

 

Someone closer to the West Mids should be able to answer your last question.

 

Adrian

[AMJ]

The long siding in the Goods area would make an ideal switchable line that could be used as a programming track. Possibly in the future a 3 way switch so you can do DC test, DCC programming and then normal DCC.

 

If you have the sections as suggested (switched for DC) in the future the feed to each swich could in future be wired directly to the DCC feeds.

[SNCF stephen]

Thanks for the idea about the programming track. That was something I had not factored into the design. It would certainly make sense. I will investigate this as an option.

[Nigelcliffe]

Thanks for the idea about the programming track. That was something I had not factored into the design. It would certainly make sense. I will investigate this as an option.

 

The use of a siding as a programming track is a mixed blessing. Yes, its a very common arrangement which many use totally successfully. But, it also has a number of risks which you need to be aware of.

 

Potential problem 1 - the siding is set to "program" and a train is left across the insulating gaps. This puts track voltage onto the programming track outputs, which will usually destroy the programming outputs of your system, requiring a trip back to the maker for repairs. Some maker's design their systems to stop this being possible by turning off track power before programming (eg. Lenz), others don't. There are ways of adding your own switch control to protect from this.

 

Potential problem 2 - Similar to (1), but with the track power turned off (either explicitly turned off, or Lenz doing it automatically). Programming now reprograms the entire layout with unpredictable consequences. There are complicated ways of protecting from this, by having a section before the programming track which is adquately long to prevent any bridging, and a multi-pole switch to control both this section and the programming track.

 

 

I think this comes down to ease of operating the switch for programming, choice of control system, and who will be the operators. Personally, I think its simpler to have the programming track totally isolated from the layout on the bench.

 

 

- Nigel

[SNCF stephen]

Thanks Nigel (sorry for the late reply).

 

Luckily I have a small section of track totally isolated from the rest of the layout to be installed adjacent to the station. It is the disused goods sidings. This would be an ideal location for the track.

 

I am currently looking at the Kato bits and pieces I need as well as purchasing a cheap Guagemaster Pro controller on an auction site.

[SNCF stephen]

Just before I glue all my turnouts down I just wanted to check whether I have adjusted the settings on the turnouts in the correct way? Here is a picture of the underside of the turnout.

 

 

I am now wondering which of my fleet of locomotives and railcars I should get chipped first (after I have a controller of course...)? My first thoughts are a freight diesel, a railcar and a generic diesel.

[Adrian Wintle]

The best way to check is to use a multimeter. You should have continuity between each frog rail and the appropriate through rail regardless of the point setting, and you should have continuity between the frog and the appropriate rail depending on how the point is set. I don't remember the exact settings off the top of my head.

 

I'd also build the layout and test it before glueing anything down.

 

Adrian

[SNCF stephen]

I have been testing the layout under DC and it seems to all work without any issues. I am guessing that would mean it is all wired up correctly. I will check with my multi meter though to make sure. Unfortunately I will be getting a DCC controller at some point in the future so I wont get to test it on that for a while.

[devondynosoar118]

Glad to see the wiring is under control. A programming track can simply be a piece of straight track stuck to a plank with stops at both ends. Not worth using a siding for really. The gauge master system has some issues with compatability but most owners seem to like them. Good idea to try every system on your short list, it does save money and grief, just don't buy anything that can't read and write the full range of CV's as it makes proper programming impossible!

[SNCF stephen]

Thanks for all of the help. I now have a gaugemaster controller and have chipped two of my loco fleet. In the next few months I am going to get a sound chip for my X73500 which is what I am really going into DCC for!

 

Futureproofing was a lot better than trying to retrofit my layout so thanks for the assistance. I am sure I will be back for more!