Canadian passenger train photos

[dibber25]

Thanks again, Chris. Having watched so many VIA trains recently -- especially on our trip -- I'm finding all of these updates and bits of news to be quite interesting!

 

Cheers, Rob

 

In the case of VIA Rail, small is beautiful. Its a good little operation but unfortunately its quality and style is old-fashioned and expensive so its only a matter of time before before it all gets turned upside down. My bet is privatisation - the big players over here, First Group, Stagecoach etc are already in Canada and providing things like school bus services, and Canada seems destined to follow British examples whether they are good or not. The big difference in Canada, of course, is that the government doesn't own the tracks, so I'm not sure how you would sell franchises to run over something you don't own. That's why I wonder exactly WHO owns the new third track that's being put in at places along the corridor.

CHRIS LEIGH

[dibber25]

Jasper, May 14 2012

 

After 6400 was rolled and wrecked on the 'Ocean' a couple of years ago, 6401 is now the class leader. It was the 'Thunderbird' waiting at Jasper for what seems to be a routine engine change.

 

I've encountered 6404 more times than any other F40PH. I photographed it at Montreal, then it turned up leading 6411 on the Canadian. It came off at Jasper to be replaced by 6401, for no obvious reason but probably saved time refuelling and cleaning the bugs off 6404.

 

A woman's work is never done - there were three domes to be washed with hose, broom and cherry-picker.

[AndrewC]

Its a shame the original wash plants that were installed along the "proper" Canadian route weren't refurbished and reused by Via.

[JonMorseArchibald]

Only one VIA F40PH remains to be rebuilt (6453). A pair of rebuilds have just arrived at Halifax NS with 'The Ocean' on May 3 2012.

 

VIA 'Ren' service car (as built for 'Nightstar' Chunnel service). The white notice on the big middle door is a warning not to use the door. An attendant was nearly sucked out when one of these doors came open at speed.

 

VIA 'Ren' coach (seating) stock on a Toronto-Montreal daytime train crossing the Lachine Canal at Montreal. This is a fabulous spot with a disused swing bridge and CN Wellington switch tower.

 

More pics to follow if you want them.

My name is Jon Archibald, new here. I came across this post Googling Hornby steam topics. I noticed the shot above (previous page) of the Ocean at Halifax and wanted to show how the terminal used to look from similar angle:

http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream

I took these when 18 or 19 having started university in Halifax about then.

The train shed was removed in late 1982.

[dibber25]

Nice pictures Jon. Shame the train shed has gone - and most everything else except for about three tracks. I thought it was only the UK where they did that sort of thing.

I reckon this one is close to the 'now' shot for your 'then' first picture.

CHRIS LEIGH

[jjb1970]

I just got back from a couple of weeks in Burlington ON and was very impressed by the GO Transit trains, quite nice to see locomotive hauled passenger trains and also big long trains. Station dwell times seem to be very long compared to over here which does not help the journey times. The service from Burlington to Toronto is OK, but it is surprising that Hamilton (a city of half a million) has such a limited service when it is only a few miles further West than Burlington. I really like the GO locomotives, I'd like a model but Athearn have done no more than repaint a F59PHI (a completely different locomotive, from a different manufacturer that whilst kind of similar in shape is completely different in detail) in GO colours. Which is a bit like a UK manufacturer renumbering a class 47 model and calling it a class 56 or something. Burlington seems to be quite busy rail wise as I saw a lot of freight, there are the VIA Niagara weekend trains too. Unfortunately I don't really know anything about what I saw, but we're emigrating to Burlington soon (I am already employed by my employer as a Burlington employee and have a work permit, SIN etc, just working remotely whilst we sell a house) and am really looking forward to finding out a lot more about Canadian trains.

[trisonic]

Good luck with the move! You'll soon develop an affinity with freight trains like double-stacked intermodals!

Come down south of the border sometime...

 

Best, Pete.

[GreenDiesel]

JJB1970,

 

My son & I also enjoy watching VIA, Go and CNR or CPR freight trains in & around Toronto. There is a really good train-watching place in Burlington called Bayview Junction where you can watch trains traveling to Niagara, southern Ontario or to/from Toronto. You can see a really good mix of Go, Via and CN freight there.

 

Rob

[dibber25]

I just got back from a couple of weeks in Burlington ON and was very impressed by the GO Transit trains, quite nice to see locomotive hauled passenger trains and also big long trains. Station dwell times seem to be very long compared to over here which does not help the journey times. The service from Burlington to Toronto is OK, but it is surprising that Hamilton (a city of half a million) has such a limited service when it is only a few miles further West than Burlington. I really like the GO locomotives, I'd like a model but Athearn have done no more than repaint a F59PHI (a completely different locomotive, from a different manufacturer that whilst kind of similar in shape is completely different in detail) in GO colours. Which is a bit like a UK manufacturer renumbering a class 47 model and calling it a class 56 or something. Burlington seems to be quite busy rail wise as I saw a lot of freight, there are the VIA Niagara weekend trains too. Unfortunately I don't really know anything about what I saw, but we're emigrating to Burlington soon (I am already employed by my employer as a Burlington employee and have a work permit, SIN etc, just working remotely whilst we sell a house) and am really looking forward to finding out a lot more about Canadian trains.

 

True Line trains released a model of the MP40-3C, the correct Go Transit loco in 2011/2012. I was just lucky and got the last DCC sound one from the Credit Valley store. I've no idea if there will be another run sometime. Its a very good, well detailed model but mine has not been without its problems. Your tracklaying really needs to be 101% perfect because the clearances on the model are very close to scale. I found that the snow plow touched the railhead if the track was very slightly uneven, and anywhere that radius is below about 2ft 6in can give derailment problems. There are a lot of very fine separate plastic detail parts and it has shed the odd handrail round the layout. Overall, I'm pleased with it and I REALLY LIKE the cab radio talk (function 15) even if I did have to go out and buy a new Digitrax throttle so that I could use functions above 12 !!

I understand that the VIA trains to Niagara are to be withdrawn in October, leaving only the Amtrak 'Maple Leaf' on that route. The Toronto-Montreal corridor is supposed to be getting extra trains, though. VIA's big problem is that it is stretched to the limit for locomotives and stock, so any extra trains on one route can only be created by cutting somewhere else. Very modellable trains, though, as most of them are no more than 4 or 5 cars long. If you travel, the service is good and the staff are great.

CHRIS LEIGH

[jjb1970]

Thanks for the spotting tips and the info on the True Line Trains MP40! Just been doing some web searching and that looks like an excellent model, more than good enough for me for sure, will try and get hold of one. So far I haven't travelled with VIA, only Go but I really want to try some VIA routes. As a longer term wish I'd love to go on a trans Canada journey by train but I think that a long way down the line, more likely I'll be able to go Toronto - Ottawa as I will have to make trips up to Ottawa from time to time and I'll be able to request rail travel as my preferred choice I think. The quality of Canadian and US train models really seems to have improved hugely, I remember the old Athearn models which were very basic, in fairness they were the basis of an excellent model with a bit of effort in many cases and they were cheap, but the new generation models are just in a different world. I was looking at web shots of the Rapido LRC coaches and the LRC locomotives they are making and they look superb, if I can get a True Line MP40 then a VIA P42 with a consist of ex-LRC cars may be my second Canadian train.

[BR60103]

jjb1970:

a potted history of the GO lakeshore line.

In the early '60s, CN built a "Toronto Bypass" freight line that started in Burlington, ran through Georgetown and across Toronto (actually, just north of the City limits) to Pickering. This left the line along Lake Ontario with little traffic. The government of the day noticed this and calculated that they could run a rail commuter service for much less than the cost of adding the equivalent in new lanes of expressway. But CN resisted efforts to expand the service as it would "interfere" with the hundreds of freight trains that it might want to run, so extensions of the GO service were limited to a few trains in rush hours.

When GO was expanded over other lines, it was limited to trains in one direction in rush hours. Some expansion is now taking place, but it involves GO or some other body paying for track improvements.

 

Let us know when you get to Burlington and we can put you in touch with the appropriate modelling/railway societies.

[jjb1970]

Thanks for the back ground, I can see the attractiveness of GO as the QEW and routes like 403 are a nightmare in rush hour, and even outside of the rush hour I found the QEW can suffer quite severe congestion. I think it is now pretty much agreed everywhere (apart from in car magazines maybe) that adding new lanes to highways just gives a very short term relief as all that happens is that demand increases to fill the additional capacity. Is there any scope for GO to step into the Niagara route as VIA pull out? The corridor from Hamilton down to Niagara seems to be getting pretty heavily developed with new housing with areas like Stoney Creek and Grimsby pretty busy commuter towns for people working in the GTA. I'm guessing that many of those towns are a bit far out to be attractive for people commuting into down town Toronto, but a lot of people in that strip drive up to work in Hamilton, Burlington and the QEW industrial corridor on the West lakeshore, I think there'd be a real potential to run some trains through to Niagara and for the Niagara end of the route to develop. A lot of the people I work with live in Hamilton, Stoney Creek, Grimsby etc as Burlington is expensive in terms of house prices. Hamilton has a very unfortunate public image as many people don't see anything apart from the view of the steel plants from the QEW bridge which looks pretty awful, but away from the steel plants there are some lovely areas in Hamilton.

[sjgardiner]

Is there any scope for GO to step into the Niagara route as VIA pull out? The corridor from Hamilton down to Niagara seems to be getting pretty heavily developed with new housing with areas like Stoney Creek and Grimsby pretty busy commuter towns for people working in the GTA.

 

A lot of the VIA Cuts in the GTA (Niagara service, reduced Kitchener), are based on GO Transit expansion. With GO Running two trains a day from/to Kitchener, in theory the service VIA was providing is covered off, even though the times are quite a bit different. Same for Niagara, I'm not 100% on the when, but GO has run weekend services each of the past two years to Niagara in the summer, and i believe that daily service at least from St Catharines is coming for GO, it just may not be any time particularly soon.

 

Suffice to say, passenger rail travel in Canada is drastically different from that in the UK, even our best service area in the corridor between Windsor and Quebec City pales in comparison, but, as noted, short train lengths and improving quality models and models of Canadian specific equipment such as the LRC's is making it easier to model Canadian Passenger Operations well.

 

-Stephen

[dibber25]

I think part of the reason that VIA decided to pull out of Niagara was because GO was showing more interest in it. There were certainly some GO trains to Niagara during the summer season. Part of the problem must be that the station is nowhere near the Falls. I understand that VIA's boss has pledged to increase capacity on the Toronto-Montreal corridor. To do that, he will need to 'win' rolling stock from somewhere and you can hardly shorten trains which are only two or three cars long. Better to take them off altogether and redistribute the equipment which is what I believe they are doing with services to Sarnia etc. The only problem with that, is when you reduce a service to one train a day, it isn't a service any more and you might as well can it altogether. They also have cars out of action for refurbishment (LRCs and HEP1 stock), accident losses (I'm not sure of the status of the LRC cars from February's Aldershot accident but I suspect they are still out of traffic) and the Nightstar (sorry Ren) cars are showing all the signs of 15 year old British build quality. Can't see the present government investing any more in new equipment for VIA, so short-term the picture isn't great. On the other hand, who's paying for all this new (third) track and rebuilt stations? Could this just be the beginning of getting ready to privatise VIA? You can't follow the UK pattern because the government doesn't own the track but are they funding improvements on the basis that they'll be able to dictate how those improvements are used.

What they need is a tranche of new DMUs for the corridor, quick acceleration, plenty of seats, and no expensive dead-heading and turning. Its a kind of 1950s way of running a railway - nice to have big powerful locomotives and all the passengers sitting facing forwards, but not if you can't afford it. Kind of a pity they got rid of so many Budd RDCs. Some of the services they run are just perfect for a few modern RDCs.

CHRIS LEIGH

[sjgardiner]

What they need is a tranche of new DMUs for the corridor, quick acceleration, plenty of seats, and no expensive dead-heading and turning. Its a kind of 1950s way of running a railway - nice to have big powerful locomotives and all the passengers sitting facing forwards, but not if you can't afford it. Kind of a pity they got rid of so many Budd RDCs. Some of the services they run are just perfect for a few modern RDCs.

CHRIS LEIGH

 

Industrial Rail Services in Moncton had a lot of RDC's that were owned by them and available for rebuild, but i'm not sure what has become of them with IRSI's financial troubles this year. The Blue22 project to finally provide an air-rail link to Pearson was supposed to use rebuilt RDC's, but when it failed and Metrolinx (GO Transit) took over, the plan was changed to new DMU's from Sumitomo Corp, which will be the first attempt at modern DMU's in southern Ontario since the failed IC3 Flexliner test in the 1990's (i want to say 97, but i'm useless with remembering dates).

 

Many of VIA Rail's southern Ontario routes would be perfect for DMU vehicles to avoid the hassles of wye'ing trains in Windsor and Sarnia in particular. I've long wondered why Bombardier never pushed harder to convince someone here to buy a modified version of one of their UK or European DMU's (biggest modifications would probably be door location to provide folding steps for ground level platforms and some serious winterization), as they would have to be more cost effective on some VIA Routes and would open doors to re-instating service in a much cheaper way on other routes.

 

Niagara Falls has two problems, the Station is in "Downtown Niagara Falls", which isn't the nicest part of town and is well away from the Tourist Area if you had to get off a train and walk it, and there are still issues with the bridge across the Welland Canal and trains getting caught being forced to wait out shipping on the canal with the rail bridge being located across a lock. Short term i can see GO starting a daily service with a train or two return from St Catharines to service all the Niagara Region, as they would be able to look at setting up park and ride facilities there.

 

-Stephen

[Adrian Wintle]

What they need is a tranche of new DMUs for the corridor, quick acceleration, plenty of seats, and no expensive dead-heading and turning. Its a kind of 1950s way of running a railway - nice to have big powerful locomotives and all the passengers sitting facing forwards, but not if you can't afford it. Kind of a pity they got rid of so many Budd RDCs. Some of the services they run are just perfect for a few modern RDCs.

 

The issue with DMUs is always going to be crashworthiness (real or perceived) in level crossing encounters. There are still a lot of level crossings on the corridor (and no budget to get rid of them), so there is a requirement for heavyweight stock (GO Bombardier cab cars and RDCs were built to this requirement) or a leading loco. Quick acceleration is less important as not all services stop at all stations and the active stations are quite far apart. On most of the corridor they are also sharing lines with freight trains, which brings in another set of crashorthiness/strength requirements.

 

Adrian

[jjb1970]

One of the things that annoys me about the budget arguments is that when governments cut rail budgets or don't fund them properly invariably they only look at the narrow rail budget rather than looking at the wider economic benefits (or otherwise) of good rail services. Many rail services might lose money yet the economic benefits they offer in terms of facilitating movement, attracting investment, retaining commerce, opening up the exploitation of natural resources etc can significantly outweigh narrow rail budgets. At a very elemental level, even today in an age of air travel and almost universal car access (in North America anyway) railways weld countries together and give people a sense of being connected in a way highways and air services don't. Ontario it seems recognised some of this by investing in GO as a good value alternative to highways expansion, I think it is one of the biggest arguments against closing down the ONTC. There is no more efficient way of moving large numbers of people or freight (well, shipping for some kinds of freight) than the train, and having the flexibility to do this (even if it is under used) adds real value to an economy. In the UK this is recognised in the South East of England, yet the same politicians who accept a need for subsidised mass transit rail in London and the London commuter belt starve other parts of the country of investment, with parts of Northern England still reliant on chronically over loaded two car rail buses operating to quite sparse schedules. Which I guess is a much bigger and wider argument than discussing Canadian passenger trains.

Given that modern multiple unit trains tend to be based on standard platforms built from standard component packages Bombardier should be able to prepare a Canadian new generation RDC relatively easily based on their international portfolio of designs. I suspect it'd be a lot heavier than European designs to allow for crash standards, winterisation and such like but speaking purely as an enthusiast I like the MP40 and bi-level cars. In the UK now there are only a few routes that still rely on locomotives with the overwhelming majority of trains being multiple unit types. I guess that does indicate that multiple units are more efficient and attractive for operators but it is still nice to see a locomotive.

[jjb1970]

Good point on the Welland Canal being a problem for the line to Niagara, given that I work in the shipping sector I should have recognised that issue.....

[BR60103]

for interest only:

The RDCs are now 55 and more years old -- they predate Evening Star.

GO Transit originally had a number of self-propelled cars, which were soon rebuilt into just cab cars. My supervisor's son observed, "You more 'portant than me, Daddy. Your train got an engine!"

And our most famous named train is being cut back from 3 times a week to twice a week for the winter. Can you imagine doing that to the Flying Scotsman, plus re-routing it through Carlisle?

[dibber25]

Rail services require long-term thinking and that's something that governments seldom do. They certainly don't do long-term plans. Automatic half barrier crossings (or full barriers on densely populated roads) have proved quite adequate here, even on lines with 125mph line speed. Yes. we've had the occasional grade-crossing accident but you can't mitigate against ALL accidents. It sounds harsh, I know, but you have to use cost-benefit analysis (you calculate how many lives you're going to save over a given period and that determines what you spend and what safety provision you make). Frankly the North American crashworthiness requirements are a bit extreme. If you hit a passenger carriage with 15 or 20 thousand tons moving at 60mph there isn't a passenger car on Earth that will withstand it. Equally, you don't want a lightweight aluminium body that's going to be ripped off the underframe in a 20mph shunting accident. Primarily, you need to keep the trains from hitting other trains or road vehicles and if you make reasonable provision for that, there is less need to worry about crashworthiness. At least you already have couplers capable of keeping derailed vehicles upright and in line.

I think VIA could transform its operations by using push-pull with driving trailers - even converted from locos as Amtrak did on the Seattle-Vancouver train. It would be interesting to know just how much time and cost is wasted on deadheading from yards to stations and wyeing trains. There are substantial efficiency savings which could be made and would actually result in an improved service but there seems to be a culture of 'we've always done it that way and it worked'. Reminds me of the "steam in our time, oh, Lord, Amen" attitude on BR in the early 1950s.

CHRIS LEIGH

[br2975]

Back on 1st September 2006, a trip to Bayview Jct. to see the remodelling produced the following .......

 

Via/Amtrak - 'Maple Leaf' approaches Bayview Jct.

.

Via 'Trian 93' hauled by 6451 approaches Bayview Jct. bound for Niagra.

.

A few days later I caught 6402 during its' layover at Niagra.

.

Brian R

[Adrian Wintle]

with parts of Northern England still reliant on chronically over loaded two car rail buses operating to quite sparse schedules.

 

And most of OntarioCanada (including areas of the corridor) is less densly populated than Northern England, which is the major issue with train service. The economics and logistics of running sevices becomes problematic. While I would love to be able to take the train to visit my parents (Newmarket, Ontario -> Kingston, Ontario - 275 km one way by car), it is not currently feasible. Neither the logistics or the economics work, even though Newmarket is on the GO system 40 km north of Toronto, while Kingston is on the main corridor, half way between Toronto and Montreal.

 

Adrian

[dibber25]

And most of OntarioCanada (including areas of the corridor) is less densly populated than Northern England, which is the major issue with train service. The economics and logistics of running sevices becomes problematic. While I would love to be able to take the train to visit my parents (Newmarket, Ontario -> Kingston, Ontario - 275 km one way by car), it is not currently feasible. Neither the logistics or the economics work, even though Newmarket is on the GO system 40 km north of Toronto, while Kingston is on the main corridor, half way between Toronto and Montreal.

 

Adrian

 

Whilst it is certainly true, the overloaded railbuses quote wasn't mine - it was jjb1970. A Class 142 railbus was tried in Canada in 1986 (and even considered for the North Van-Prince George BC Rail service). Thankfully it didn't get beyond a trial!! Can't understand why anyone would have thought they could ever be acceptable in any civilised country.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Adrian Wintle]

Whilst it is certainly true, the overloaded railbuses quote wasn't mine - it was jjb1970. A Class 142 railbus was tried in Canada in 1986 (and even considered for the North Van-Prince George BC Rail service). Thankfully it didn't get beyond a trial!! Can't understand why anyone would have thought they could ever be acceptable in any civilised country.

CHRIS LEIGH

 

Sorry Chris, I don't know how that misquote happened.

 

I suppose BC counts as civilized Just kidding, it's a Canadian regional thing - residents of the various regions (BC, Western Canada**, Ontario, Quebec, Atlantic Canada, and Newfie) do tend to make jokes at the expense of the other regions. **Alberta and Saskatchewan, I'm not sure whether Manitoba is patr of it, a separate region, or just an expanse of prairie and forest to be endured when travelling between Ontario and Western Canada.

 

I'm glad saner heads prevailed on the 142s. They probably wouldn't have got them past the crashworthiness regs anyway, and I seriously doubt that one could have done what one of the Turbos did - continued it's trip with only cosmetic damage after cutting a semi-trailer in half at a level crossing*. Though I'm not sure that a GO cab car or an LRC power car would have done as well as the Turbo either. Also, having seen photos of the freights that have hit landslips, I don't think I'd want to be in a 142 in the BC interior.

 

* this incident produced a dramatic photo, taken by a journalist riding in the upper level lounge of the lead power car, looking back down the train with bits of trailer scattering in its wake.

 

Adrian

[AndrewC]

Another short lived experiment was in Calgary. Back in 1996 they trialled a Siemens RegioSprinter along the existing CP line in the far south of the city. Didn't really take off and the city has since extended the LRT beyond the trial's original route. There is a lot of talk around providing something similar to the neighbouring bedroom communities of Airdrie, Strathmore, Cochrane, and High River. Doubt I'll see that in my lifetime though. The same goes for the proposed 300km/h LGV between Calgary and Edmonton. Lots of space, loads of cash to build it, but no real political motivation.