aforsyth Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Katier - yes, I grew up with my nose in Mr. Freezer's "60 plans for small railways", and have always liked the look of the two Minories variations in that book. This will be a war of the heart - Penzance is one of my favourite stations from childhood, yet Minories is efficient and well-proven... :-| Thanks for your suggestion! Alan PS - a subject for another thread, probably: Has anyone successfully built a CJ Freezer 'roundy' plan (6' x 4', 8' x 4', etc.) with RTR track? I think many of his plans are excellent, but I've always wondered how realistic the larger continuous run layout plans and track configurations were...? Dare I say it, but wouldn't the best starting point for the terminus be a certain Mr Freezer's rather infamous plan? Most terminus stations automatically have something in common with this layout and certainly I believe it could easily work here. Move the small siding on Minories so it's point is straight after (rather than between) the second cross-over and that becomes your left hand platform (as for your terminus). You have thus converted Minories to a four platform station and can easily then add your extra siding and carriage sidings off from the right hand platform pretty much exactly as per your plan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 This is my exhibition layout 'Crewlisle' which has been on the exhibition circuit for 20 years, has appeared at the NEC four times (last in 2009 and has been invited back for 2015), Alexandra Palace in 2011, Taunton and other exhibitions in the Southwest over the last few years. One of the reasons it is popular with visitors is that it entertains and (subject to loco movements) I let children have a go. Whilst not the largest or most detailed, it has always provoked many compliments and surprise at how much can be built in a bedroom like without looking overcrowded. I normally run a minimum of two locos and often as many as four simultaneously. The exact size of mine is 8.5ft x 7.5ft and the section in the bottom right hand corner is to allow the door to open! Be careful in planning to add higher or lower levels at a later date as unless you are good at woodwork, you could damage/weaken parts already built. Think what you want from your layout right from the initial planning stage. When I planned mine I wanted the WCML from my trainspotting days, a terminus, believable length expresses, steam and diesel sheds, turntable, shunting yard, double track main line with overhead catenary and a reversing loop so the trains could leave and return from the terminus. This was almost forty years ago and I have never wanted to change it because as many visitors to the exhibitions I have attended say, "It has something for everyone". General Description: Set in the North West on the WCML from the mid 50's to the early 80's . Layout is on 3 interconnected levels with continuous run double track main line with overhead catenary for scale 100mph running on the middle level; 4 road terminus for my standard 6 coach expresses and goods yard/coach sidings on high level; steam & diesel sheds on high level & reversing loop on lower level. Minimum radius is equivalent to second radius set curves. Radii on view are as large as practicable. 'Up' is clockwise and 'down' is anti clockwise. The through station relief line joins the down main under the signalbox. In the same position is a trailing crossover between the up and down mainlines. The reversing loop leaves the down main under the signalbox, down the inside of the operating well, under the right hand baseboard, up under the shunting yard and joins the up main under the steam shed water tower at the top left of the plan. All these hidden junctions increase operating choices, but because they are hidden I have had to make sure there are enough lift out sections for access in case of 'accidents'! My total stock comprises 24 steam locos (from Stanier Pacifics to 0-6-0 Jinty), 13 blue/green diesels (including prototype Deltic), HST, 4 electrics (AL1 class loco in early BR electric blue livery, 2 x Class 86 & 1 x Class 87) and APT; 65 passenger/parcel coaches; 114 wagons including, with modeller's licence, a rake of private owner coal wagons. There are representatives from the main ex-LMS classes and standards which worked the WCML & examples of diesel/electrics as seen in WCML service together with a couple of visitors. 10 locos are fitted with sound decoders. The big question everyone asks is , "Where is your fiddleyard?". To me, fiddleyards are wasted space. On the reversing loop on the inside of the operating well is a 4.5ft lift out 'cartridge'. Underneath there are 18 other identical ones on a rack which can be lifted out and secured in position as part of the reversing loop. Each one can hold a complete train of, for example, a Class 47 + four Mk.1 coaches or 11 short wheelbase wagons. That is my fiddleyard. You can add as many racks as you want. Operating positions are inside operating well and at exhibitions,bottom LH corner by diesel stabling point and by turntable. Finished conversion to DCC in 2007 and article on the conversion was featured in October and November 2008 Model Rail. All track and points are Peco Code 100 live frog. The only polarity switch on the layout is for the live diamond on the double junction and it shows that there is no need to modify points to go DCC. If you want to see some videos of 'Crewlisle' at exhibitions, search under 'crewlisle%00 gauge model railway'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aforsyth Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Crewlisle ... thank you! Very impressive, even without watching the videos. I can imagine it must be fun to watch for all ages, as you say. A few questions: - Gradients - in the video, the '50 seems to have no problem pulling 5 coaches up the gradient to the top level - what gradients have you got up to the top level, or down to the cassette loading? - DCC automation - have you set up any automated programs? There's so much scope for operation on this layout, that it looks like you could have several simple operations repeated by computer, and concentrate on something else yourself. That would be a pipe-dream of mine one day. - Signals - are they working? If I build a layout that I'm still happy with (and draws appreciative comments) in 40 years' time, I would be very chuffed...! Thanks again. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Glad you liked it and hope it has given you some food for thought. To answer your questions: Gradients: Main line up to terminus is 1:38; reversing loop through cartridge exchange is 1:28 (normally only one way but if required to go up, a little help from the 'big hand in the sky'! This is no problem as it is in the operating well.); reversing loop to up main line (under baseboard at bottom of the plan) under coal shed is 1:33. All my pacific steam locos can handle six Bachmann Mk 1s (internal weights removed and additional weight in locos) both running and from a standing start from adverse signals (except the 1:28). 4-6-0s (Hornby, Mainline and Bachmann) and other steam locos can handle five Mk 1s or six ex-Airfix Stanier coaches (weights removed). I have a couple of tender drive steam locos with traction tyres - no problem. All diesels have plenty of weight to handle any sized train. Reverse Loop; It can hold two six coach expresses + whatever is in the cassette. The cassettes are obviously not long enough for the six coach expresses but long enough, for example, a Class 40 + 4 Mk1s or 10 short wheelbase wagons, but are OK for shorter steam locos and diesels + 12 wagons. Signals: All semaphores are modified Ratio kits operated by 1.6mm wire from the inside of the operating well. The 7 doll gantry at the terminus throat is hand operated by a 150mm length of 1.6mm wire raising/lowering the balance weights at the base of the dolls. Not very prototypical, but when operated and big hand removed, it sets the scene for photos, etc! The 4 aspect colour light signals on the WCML are Eckon kits originally fitted with bulbs and now replaced with LEDs (now all Eckon kits have LEDs). Colour lights are operated by 3-position cheap miniature slide switches on inside of operating well. All signals work with these cheap and cheerful methods. DCC Automation: No thankyou! Because of all the different route combinations available with 32 points, I consider it a waste of time and takes all the excitement out of operating hands-on. As the old saying goes, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it!'. All my points are operated from 3 mini track diagrams in the operating well with Peco stud contacts. Keep it simple and it will work. I run my layout for enjoyment and if at an exhibition we are running mainly steam locos and a young child comes up and asks for the HST or APT, then I ask them to hang on for 5 minutes while we shuffle the pack and then run the requested train. They are the paying visitors; it's a bad image for the hobby to tell someone that they are too late and that that sequence is over and to come back in an hours time! It does happen; I have heard it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aforsyth Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Thank you Crewlisle. Good info about the gradients - so for me, I could assume that a 1:40 would be fine for all the trains I might want to run. I think Cyril Freezer would classify your layout as one of those 'snug systems, which can keep one occupied for hours'! I would be tempted to do something similar, although my daughter told me yesterday that she wants to see the seaside on the railway and ... a ferry!! Don't quite know how I'm going to deal with that. Are there any lessons that have been learned from this layout? Anything you would do different? DCC Automation: No thankyou! Because of all the different route combinations available with 32 points, I consider it a waste of time and takes all the excitement out of operating hands-on. As the old saying goes, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it!'. All my points are operated from 3 mini track diagrams in the operating well with Peco stud contacts. Keep it simple and it will work. I run my layout for enjoyment and if at an exhibition we are running mainly steam locos and a young child comes up and asks for the HST or APT, then I ask them to hang on for 5 minutes while we shuffle the pack and then run the requested train. They are the paying visitors; it's a bad image for the hobby to tell someone that they are too late and that that sequence is over and to come back in an hours time! It does happen; I have heard it. Yes - the voice of experience! I guess I like the idea of being able to drive a train to a timetable with other operations (signals, workings) controlled by a computer, but other operators would always be more fun to work with! But I appreciate that on the exhibition circuit, flexibility and simplicity are the key. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 What would I do different and lessons learnt? Not a lot. If you are staying with DC for a while, do not use common return wiring. If you have any shorts, they are difficult to track down. Use all Peco track and Electrofrog points and do not listen to all these 'experts' saying you have to waste time modifying point wiring. That statement applies to both DC and DCC operation; I speak from experience! None of my 32 points have any additional wiring and the only polarity change switches are on my converted live diamond from a Peco Code 100 Insulfrog short crossing. Providing the contact surfaces on the inside of the moveable rails are kept clean, movement not fouled by small particles of ballast under the moveable rail or the small contact tabs on the underside of the rails, you should have no problems with the power supply to your points. My Peco points were on my layout for about 25 years before I had to start replacing them. When laying track there is no real need to draw an accurate track plan. Place your points where you think they should go and roughly measure the radius of the curve required. If it is more than your minimum radius curve fit your track. Remember, from a straight to a curve your track should be transitional, that is it is straight and then gradually tightens to the radius required. Just look along the curve to check it is a smooth curve and ensure that there are no kinks in the track. Go by the old ship building statement, 'If it looks right, it is right'. When laying your track, do not ballast straight away but pin your track to the baseboard and have a few practice running trials to check wiring and operational movements. An obvious one, keep your gradients as large as possible. You need minimum headroom in your tunnels, but this restricts 'the big rescue hand from the sky' when accidents happen. To get over this, make sure you have easily removeable portable sections for access. My layout was DC until conversion to DCC in 2008. My point and signal control (see details in Post No. 29) worked well so I did not bother to convert them to use DCC. Reason - more wiring but more importantly there would be more codes to remember. Do not believe the hype that DCC is only two wires. I used about 75M when I converted to DCC. See article in 2008 October and November Model Rail. Use different coloured wiring and make a wiring diagram. Keep all things simple if they work OK. My turntable is scratchbuilt and hand operated through a set of Meccano gears. Cheap and cheerful! Am I right in saying that you arrived at your layout's name like I did? That is a mix of Penzance and Plymouth and 'Crewlisle' from the two most important rail centres on the WCML, Crewe and Carlisle? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aforsyth Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 Great advice - thank you, Crewlisle. Am I right in saying that you arrived at your layout's name like I did? That is a mix of Penzance and Plymouth and 'Crewlisle' from the two most important rail centres on the WCML, Crewe and Carlisle? Yes and no. Actually, 'Penzyth' is the combination of the two terminii I knew from boyhood holidays - 'Penzance' and 'Aberystwyth'. However, there is no deliberate influence on the plan from Aberystwyth, other than the intention to operate a few more passenger services drawn by class 37s than might have been normal at Penzance! However, at this point, Penzance might need to be put on the shelf for a while, since although I love it as a station and challenge, it might not be the best plan to start with after a gap in railway modelling of several decades and impatient young family! At this moment I am considering Liskeard and Looe via Coombe Junction, which would give me a double-track continuous run, a graded branch with interesting operation and (with some modeller's license) a lot of scenic variation, including viaducts, valleys, rivers and beaches. All: I might be otherwise occupied for the next few days, but I'll try to post my design progress asap. Oh yes, and I've also ordered the famous Realistic RM Layout Design book from Iain Rice, so I may eventually be re-thinking my whole approach to layout design, if others' experiences are anything to go by! Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 One other thing I would try to change would be the baseboard sizes. When originally started 40 years ago I never envisaged it going to any exhibitions. With reference to the layout plan, the top was by the window so I made the top main baseboard the full length of the room (well about 2 inches shorter) 8.5 ft x 1.5 ft wide resting on a built in cupboard unit. Not only is it very awkward to manoeuvre downstairs and out of the house for exhibitions but quite heavy. With hindsight I would have made the right hand baseboard 1.5 ft longer, thus making the long baseboard only 7ft long. There are 5 baseboards in total - top one 8.5 ft x 1.5 ft, left hand 4.75 ft x 1 ft, right hand 4.75 ft x 2.25 ft, bottom (adjacent to central operating well) 5.25 ft x 2.5 ft and bottom one with sidings 7.5 ft x 1.25 ft. For travelling to exhibitions, I have made a framework to hold the three shorter boards. The 8.5 ft board has its legs attached and when in the van, the 7.5 ft board is stored underneath it. Moral of this tale is to try and make your baseboards similar in size just in case you get on the exhibition circuit! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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