Dock Green

[chaz]

With regard to the last photo I posted I have it in mind to add not just grass and weeds here and there around the yard, but also litter such as discarded newspapers etc.

Has anybody done this in 7mm and have any tips to pass on about the best way to do it? Also any ideas as to what sort of rubbish might be evident in a late fifties yard? I don't think soft drinks came in cans. A friend of mine did suggest cigarette ends but when I explained the effect of scale....

 

Chaz

[alant]

Hi Chaz,

 

I remember there was an article in an old MRJ sometime back regarding adding litter etc. I think this was for 4mm scale though not 7mm.

 

Alan.

[Buckjumper]

Photos suggest predominantly packing straw - lots of it, both on the track and left on the loading docks (plumber's hemp), some discarded lumps of wood used for battens, and some discarded paper - possibly newspaper (tissue etched kits are wrapped in), and some discarded rope or twine.

[chaz]

Hi Chaz,

 

I remember there was an article in an old MRJ sometime back regarding adding litter etc. I think this was for 4mm scale though not 7mm.

 

Alan.

 

Thanks for the hint Alan. I will see if I have the relevant copy. Translating from 4mm to 7mm shouldn't be too difficult, and tiny details are usually easier to make.

 

Chaz

Edited January 14, 2013 by chaz

[chaz]

Photos suggest predominantly packing straw - lots of it, both on the track and left on the loading docks (plumber's hemp), some discarded lumps of wood used for battens, and some discarded paper - possibly newspaper (tissue etched kits are wrapped in), and some discarded rope or twine.

 

Thanks for those ideas Adrian. I have lots of battening left-overs from my On30 trestle bridges.... these can be cut and strewn about, left in heaps in corners etc. Also have lots of hairy string that can be snipped up (would that stand in for hemp, I wonder?). Tissue paper no problem, I never throw it away! I wonder how a convincing newspaper look might be contrived - I don't think tissue paper will go through a computer printer, but possibly some even lines with a soft pencil might suggest printed areas. WTS.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Today I worked on another "small" job that took most of the afternoon and is still unfinished. I wanted to make progress with the street lights. The first picture shows some of the parts of the first one ready to assemble.



On the left is the post, a length of 2.4mm brass tubing. Fitted into the top of this is the ladder bar, made from 1.2mm brass wire. The short length of 1.6mm tube will be soldered into the end of the post to form a peg which will locate the lamp housing. I also added a brass washer (10BA I think) to strengthen the joint. Peter Harvey made a really nice job of the etches but the base of the housing is very delicate and a little added strength here seems a good idea.

To drill the post for the ladder bar I had to make a drilling jig. I think it would be impossible to drill the tube without it. Here's the jig....



It's a short length of 1/4" square brass bar with the two holes drilled at right angles. It's important to mark out and drill the holes accurately so that the centre of the small hole passes through the centre of the larger.

Here's the drilling jig in use....



The jig is held in a machine vice and the tube is held firmly by hand to prevent it rotating as the drill starts to bite. It would be better to make such a jig out of steel - it would resist wear better - but a brass one should be fine for the small number of holes I want to drill.

The next photo shows the socket for the lamp-post, in place.

It's just a length of 3.2mm brass tube. This lamp is on a bridge so the length of the socket below the pavement surface is necessarily fairly short. I made it longer so that it projects above the pavement to form the fatter bottom section of the post. I used CA to fix the socket in place after drilling a 3.2mm hole for a snug fit.

I used Slater's paving slab sheet for the pavement surface. This looked unconvincing until I hit on the idea of cutting the sheet up into individual slabs. Glueing these down resulted in a slightly uneven surface, made it much easier to deal with joins and also allowed me to model cracked slabs.

And here's the unfinished lamp-post in place...



It needs paint and glazing and maybe a ring on each end of the ladder bar. I will not be making the light work - a gain of wheat bulb would be any easy fit but it would be impossible to run the wire down the inside of the post with it blocked at the top. This doesn't bother me as I'm not that keen on working lights.

Anybody have any idea how far apart lamps like this would be spaced?

Chaz

Edited January 14, 2013 by chaz

[PatB]

It needs paint and glazing and maybe a ring on each end of the ladder bar. I will not be making the light work - a gain of wheat bulb would be any easy fit but it would be impossible to run the wire down the inside of the post with it blocked at the top. This doesn't bother me as I'm not that keen on working lights.

 

Anybody have any idea how far apart lamps like this would be spaced?

 

Chaz

 

Generally just far enough to leave a pool of inky blackness between lamps to make it more convenient to bark your shins on protruding bits of architecture.

[chaz]

Generally just far enough to leave a pool of inky blackness between lamps to make it more convenient to bark your shins on protruding bits of architecture.

 

Is that in feet and inches or metres?

[PatB]

Is that in feet and inches or metres?

 

Oh, I only ever injure myself in proper imperial measurements, not your namby-pamby modern rubbish .

[chaz]

Oh, I only ever injure myself in proper imperial measurements, not your namby-pamby modern rubbish .

 

I usually injure myself in metric measurements. I use feet and inches for prototype measurements, and millipedes on models (7mm to a foot - a very useful mix-up!). So all scalpel cuts and soldering iron burns are metric. My  last imperial injury was when the tape measure snapped back unexpectedly fast - OUCH!

[chaz]

My mate Peter came round today for a working day on the layout, bringing with him bridge #4 which is now beginning to look quite splendid.
The first photo shows a trial fit.



You will have to excuse the rubber bands which are holding the "steel" girders in place. Peter will not fix them permanently until they have been detailed and sprayed.

I will add another section of fence from the end of the canal fence to the corner of the bridge pier. I have it in mind to fill that space between the bridge and the canal with weeds, grass and small bushes - scrub in fact.



I know the canal and the bridge look parallel in this photo but they aren't, they converge towards the front of the layout.The canal crosses the baseboard at an oblique angle whilst the road bridge crosses at right angles. I think it is more interesting and credible if things aren't all parallel.



Above is a view looking through the bridge towards the canal. This bridge adds a lot to the look of this area of the layout and is all the better for being a fine model of a real bridge - albeit somewhat modified to suit the space available.

The last picture shows the relationship between the bridge and the goods platform and canopy. There is still a lot of work to do on the ground between the tracks but with the bridge piers in place this can now be tackled.



It was always my intention that you would not be able to stand in one place and see the whole of the layout at a glance. By splitting it up into a number of scenes, separated by the bridges, I hope I have made what is quite a small layout seem more interesting. Movements in the yard can appear and disappear and a spectator, moving along the layout to change their viewpoint, can find different scenes revealed.

Chaz

[chaz]

A new section of fence added this morning...

 

 

The enclosed area will be full of long grass, weeds, small bushes - scrub in fact.

 

Chaz

Edited January 16, 2013 by chaz

[marc smith]

With regard to the last photo I posted I have it in mind to add not just grass and weeds here and there around the yard, but also litter such as discarded newspapers etc.

Has anybody done this in 7mm and have any tips to pass on about the best way to do it? Also any ideas as to what sort of rubbish might be evident in a late fifties yard? I don't think soft drinks came in cans. A friend of mine did suggest cigarette ends but when I explained the effect of scale....

 

Chaz

 

Hi Chaz,

 

Litter is something many modellers seem to miss

I suppose we like to "edit it out" of our everyday life, and memories of halcyon days?

 

As you point out, litter in the 50's would be different from litter today

and generally, there would probably be less about

 

There would have been something of a shortage of metal

and people would have been keen to replace railings melted down, for the war effort

 

It seems folk re-cycled more then - Grandad used to collect bits of wood etc

"you never know when you might need it".....

 

That said, I'm sure there would have been rusty pieces of metal,

and battered wood; some old crates, packing etc

 

Re; newspapers, on my OO tiny layout in a crate "Bracty Bridge"

I cut up tiny pieces of paper, scribbled gently on them,

creased them up and placed them randomly about....

..... I still feel I could put more in place though

 

I recall that article mentioned earlier,

and seem to remember it carefully considering placement of litter -

against fences and walls, in nooks & crannies etc

 

Anyhow, looking good Chaz

 

Cheers

Marc

 

 

[PatB]

I recall that article mentioned earlier,

and seem to remember it carefully considering placement of litter -

against fences and walls, in nooks & crannies etc

 

That's a good point.  Lightweight litter like paper or packing straw wouldn't be evenly or randomly distributed but would collect where it was carried by the wind and then trapped.

[chaz]

Hi Chaz,

 

As you point out, litter in the 50's would be different from litter today

and generally, there would probably be less about

 

It seems folk re-cycled more then - Grandad used to collect bits of wood etc

"you never know when you might need it".....

 

That said, I'm sure there would have been rusty pieces of metal,

and battered wood; some old crates, packing etc

 

Re; newspapers, on my OO tiny layout in a crate "Bracty Bridge"

I cut up tiny pieces of paper, scribbled gently on them,

creased them up and placed them randomly about....

..... I still feel I could put more in place though

 

I recall that article mentioned earlier,

and seem to remember it carefully considering placement of litter -

against fences and walls, in nooks & crannies etc

 

Anyhow, looking good Chaz

 

Cheers

Marc

 

 

 

Thanks for the comments and ideas Marc. Interesting photo you posted. Litter and weeds would collect along the base of a wall or fence to the extent that, if you don't include them on a model, the wall looks wrong.

 

"It seems folk re-cycled more then - Grandad used to collect bits of wood etc

"you never know when you might need it"....."

 

Yes, both my Grandad and my father used to do that - they used to call it "going on the scrounge".....

 

Chaz

Edited January 17, 2013 by chaz

[chaz]

That's a good point.  Lightweight litter like paper or packing straw wouldn't be evenly or randomly distributed but would collect where it was carried by the wind and then trapped.

 

Slightly off  the  point but a few years ago, when I was working in Gosport there was a violently windy day. I drove past a school and was amazed to see the chain-link fence along the edge of the school grounds entirely papered with crisp packets. The wind had picked up the childrens' litter and smacked it onto the fence. A bizarre sight.

 

Chaz

Edited January 17, 2013 by chaz

[alant]

Chaz,

 

I found the MRJ article last night whilst looking for something myself - issue 153.

 

Alan.

[chaz]

Chaz,

 

I found the MRJ article last night whilst looking for something myself - issue 153.

 

Alan.

 

Thanks Alan, I have that issue and will dig it out.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Is there any real benefit to covering the top of a baseboard in cork? I am coming to loath the muck. My erstwhile partner, who laid the track and did the wiring (and later withdrew from the project) insisted that cork was a good idea. However as far as I can see it just gives an unstable top surface that compresses with the slightest pressure and prevents any accuracy when drilling holes, making drill bits bounce and skitter around. My advice would be to give cork a really wide berth. I can't express my true feelings about it without resorting to Anglo-Saxon, so I will say no more.

 

Chaz

[PatB]

The only real benefit I can see is in noise reduction.  However, I see this as less of an issue on a shunting layout where wagons are shuffled around in short bursts at a scale 5-10 mph than it would be on a main line tailchaser with an A3 and ten heavy coaches roaring around for lengthy periods.  Even then, though, I'm not really sure.  30 Years ago I was involved in building Somerset 0 Gauge Group's test track.  There were two ovals of Bonds/Bassett-Lowke coarse scale track and one of Peco for the finescale (as it was in those days) boys. The coarse scale circuits were laid direct on the ply baseboards with the Peco on expanded polystyrene.  I don't honestly remember the coarse scale circuits being offensively noisy, even with the seemingly all cast-iron locos and stock that many of our members favoured.  Perhaps in a domestic environment it would have been a problem but in a noisy exhibition hall or on a club running day it never appeared to be an issue.

 

I suppose it could be argued that cork takes pins but that falls down because any decent length of pin will go right through any sensible layer of cork into the substrate anyway.  Besides, many plywoods are soft enough to take pins just as easily.  Not all, though.  Try it with Australian hoop pine ply and it'll end in tears.

 

There might also be some small advantage if you want to recycle your baseboards.  The cork layer provides a weak link so glued down components can be removed without ripping the surface off the board proper.  But then you've got to clean all the shredded cork off anyway which is also an unattractive idea.

[chaz]

The only real benefit I can see is in noise reduction.  However, I see this as less of an issue on a shunting layout where wagons are shuffled around in short bursts at a scale 5-10 mph than it would be on a main line tailchaser with an A3 and ten heavy coaches roaring around for lengthy periods.  Even then, though, I'm not really sure.  30 Years ago I was involved in building Somerset 0 Gauge Group's test track.  There were two ovals of Bonds/Bassett-Lowke coarse scale track and one of Peco for the finescale (as it was in those days) boys. The coarse scale circuits were laid direct on the ply baseboards with the Peco on expanded polystyrene.  I don't honestly remember the coarse scale circuits being offensively noisy, even with the seemingly all cast-iron locos and stock that many of our members favoured.  Perhaps in a domestic environment it would have been a problem but in a noisy exhibition hall or on a club running day it never appeared to be an issue.

 

I suppose it could be argued that cork takes pins but that falls down because any decent length of pin will go right through any sensible layer of cork into the substrate anyway.  Besides, many plywoods are soft enough to take pins just as easily.  Not all, though.  Try it with Australian hoop pine ply and it'll end in tears.

 

There might also be some small advantage if you want to recycle your baseboards.  The cork layer provides a weak link so glued down components can be removed without ripping the surface off the board proper.  But then you've got to clean all the shredded cork off anyway which is also an unattractive idea.

 

I'm with you Pat. The advantages are largely theoretical - but the disadvantages are very real.

 

"...an A3 and ten heavy coaches..." - in my dreams it's an A4 with a rake of Pullmans.

 

Chaz

[marc smith]

Is there any real benefit to covering the top of a baseboard in cork? I am coming to loath the muck........

 

Chaz

 

Hi again Chaz,

 

I never use the stuff these days....

I know what you mean about coming to loathe it, and for all the same reasons,

I too decided to stop using it....

 

Also, Iain Rice wrote in one of his books that it doesn't really seem to work anyway.....

 

He reasoned that when you initailly lay track onto cork, it does indeed act as a noise reducer...

However, once you have glued ballast all around your track -

you end up with a very solid mass, and he thought that this negated any noise- reduction qualities....

 

I think he has a point....

mind you, it may also depend on what glues and ballast you use

If you use copydex instead of PVA, the flexibility of the former may help matters

Using granite particle ballast, you are also effectively using stone...

a softer material may again help.......

 

PatB may have a good point regarding tearing track up though

It could be a "soft" barrier between track & baseboard?

I really hope you won't be tearing up the track on this layout anyway

 

Maybe in the yard, ballast shouldn't be too high, or have too much of the "shoulder" you'd get with cork anyway?

Many yards were ballasted on the cheap, where ash & other materials were used....

ballast is more likely to be spread relatively thinly too.....

 

Additionally, covering the whole baseboard in the stuff is quite an expense, and will add considerably to weight...

 

Anyhow, I'm glad you're posting your thoughts to this thread regularly

Cheers again

 

Marc

Edited January 18, 2013 by marc smith

[alant]

 

Maybe in the yard, ballast shouldn't be too high, or have too much of the "shoulder" you'd get with cork anyway?

Many yards were ballasted on the cheap, where ash & other materials were used....

ballast is more likely to be spread relatively thinly too.....

Hi Marc,

 

I agree, most track in yards seem to have no obvious "shoulder". On my current layout I glued corrugated cardboard up against the track to bring up the yard level with the tops of the sleepers before adding the top surface detail.

 

All the best.

 

Alan.

[chaz]

 

Hi Marc,

 

I agree, most track in yards seem to have no obvious "shoulder". On my current layout I glued corrugated cardboard up against the track to bring up the yard level with the tops of the sleepers before adding the top surface detail.

 

All the best.

 

Alan.

 

On Dock Green the entire top surface of the boards is covered with cork, thus ensuring that any hole that needs to be drilled will be some distance away from where it's wanted. Ho Hum.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Hi again Chaz,

 

I never use the stuff these days....

I know what you mean about coming to loathe it, and for all the same reasons,

I too decided to stop using it....

 

Also, Iain Rice wrote in one of his books that it doesn't really seem to work anyway.....

 

He reasoned that when you initailly lay track onto cork, it does indeed act as a noise reducer...

However, once you have glued ballast all around your track -

you end up with a very solid mass, and he thought that this negated any noise- reduction qualities....

 

I think he has a point....

mind you, it may also depend on what glues and ballast you use

If you use copydex instead of PVA, the flexibility of the former may help matters

Using granite particle ballast, you are also effectively using stone...

a softer material may again help.......

 

PatB may have a good point regarding tearing track up though

It could be a "soft" barrier between track & baseboard?

I really hope you won't be tearing up the track on this layout anyway

 

Maybe in the yard, ballast shouldn't be too high, or have too much of the "shoulder" you'd get with cork anyway?

Many yards were ballasted on the cheap, where ash & other materials were used....

ballast is more likely to be spread relatively thinly too.....

 

Additionally, covering the whole baseboard in the stuff is quite an expense, and will add considerably to weight...

 

Anyhow, I'm glad you're posting your thoughts to this thread regularly

Cheers again

 

Marc

 

Well, the first batch of ballasting on Dock Green was applied with Copydex. I don't like it. If you try to remove some of the ballast (to modify the Peco points for instance) the copydex acts like a rubber sheet and it's very hard to limit the damage. It is also very tricky to cut through it to stop the strings of dried glue pulling too much away; the knife just makes a slot in the @%**?^ cork. When Peter and I took on the job of completing the ballasting we switched to PVA, diluted 50:50 and applied with a dropper bottle after wetting the ballast with a spray.

 

If I was starting DG again I would not use cork or Copydex. Awful stuff.

 

Chaz