Semaphore Signals - 4mm Scale (Mainly)

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, RailWest said:

They do look nice in operation. However at 4:55 I have never seen a subsidiary arm like that at an ex-LS&WR location.

 

Is there a track plan of the layout anywhere please so that we can understand the signals better ?

Having now seen the video I regrettably have to agree with Chris.  The signals are beautiful pieces of work which i freely admit I could never emulate in a dozen lifetimes but there are errors  in the type of signal or arm used.  

 

The signal reading to the Goods Yard is the easiest to correct and needs the addition of an SR style, i.e. painted black, 'goods ring' on the arm (the SR put a ring on the arm of signals reading to a goods yard or goods line, i.e. a very different approach from the way the GWR and LNWR used a ring on a signal arm).  

 

Far more difficult are the subs reading to the engine shed etc the SR only used the horizontal striped arms as subsidiary signals and they came either with an 'S' on the arm for a Shunt Ahead signal (which these are not) or a 'C' on the arm for a Calling On Signal (which, again, these are not) or with nothing on the arm but an adjacent stencil indicator for a Warning Signal (which, again, they are not).  The usual SR method for signalling a route into a siding was to use a co-located disc signal possibly bracketed off the nearest doll to the route they signalled.  It did not use a subsidiary arm in the sort of catch all way the LMS did by using an unmarked horizontal striped subsidiary arm as a Draw Ahead which could have various different meanings depending on location and purpose,  or an ordinary coloured sub arm mounted below a running arm to signal the sort of routes mentioned in this case.

 

As ever the late George Pryer's excellent volume dealing with Southern signalling is a mine of information and even includes copies of the relevant pages from the SR Appendix to show the differences between the three  Sections of the Company (corresponding with the three major Pre-Group constitunents) plus photo illustrations to suit just about every need.  Long out of print but I'm sure copies a can still be found via the regular book sale sites on the 'net.

[RailWest]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Having now seen the video I regrettably have to agree with Chris.  The signals are beautiful pieces of work which i freely admit I could never emulate in a dozen lifetimes but there are errors  in the type of signal or arm used.  

 

 

My thanks to Stationmaster for providing the supporting explanation far better than I could have done :-)

 

Just to clarify, my comments were in no way intended as a criticism of the actual superb workmanship. It just a shame that so much effort has gone into producing something which essentially is 'wrong'. The layout owner of course may not mind that fact, and it is his/her layout after all, but it would a shame (say) for such workmanship to appear at an exhibition somewhere perhaps, only for the eagle-eyed signal enthusiast to spot the howlers (guilty as charged, m'lud :-) )

[Stephen Freeman]

Scalelink do an etch in 4mm scale which covers most if not all possibilites

[Joseph_Pestell]

15 minutes ago, Stephen Freeman said:

Scalelink do an etch in 4mm scale which covers most if not all possibilites

 

All the etched part of ScaleLink is now handled by ScaleLink Fretcetera (run by Bob's lovely longtime assistant, Helen)

[Steve Hewitt]

Moving on - towards Devon.

Signals for Moretonhampstead.......

 

A GWR country terminus, set in BR days, Moretonhampstead will require three stop signals and four ground discs.

See: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/150296-moretonhampstead-signalling/

Which is the layout owner's topic and includes an excellent signalling diagram

 

The first signal will be the Down Home. This was a concrete post signal - not very common! - with a 4ft arm at 23ft above rail height.

 

The prototype

The model will be based on a MSE cast post. Ladder and arm will be Masokits. Finial and lamp will be Modelu.

 

I'll get some components together before I start the assembly...............

 

Steve.

 

 

 

[RailWest]

Ah, one of my favourite GWR locations, not least because all 3 stop signals were different, so a nice bit of variety. Will watch with interest.....

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, RailWest said:

Ah, one of my favourite GWR locations, not least because all 3 stop signals were different, so a nice bit of variety. Will watch with interest.....

A nice spot although alas I didn't get there until after the signals had disappeared.

[Happy Hippo]

As a matter of interest, I am presuming that a loco stopped at the down home but wanting to access the loop, would require both the down home and the loop disc to both be cleared before proceeding.

 

I would have expected this to be confirmed by looking at the locking chart, (ie disc cannot be cleared until down home is cleared) but unfortunately the SRS one is for the earlier signalling scheme before the disc was installed to cover the main to loop movement.

[Pannier Tank]

24 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

As a matter of interest, I am presuming that a loco stopped at the down home but wanting to access the loop, would require both the down home and the loop disc to both be cleared before proceeding.

 

I would have expected this to be confirmed by looking at the locking chart, (ie disc cannot be cleared until down home is cleared) but unfortunately the SRS one is for the earlier signalling scheme before the disc was installed to cover the main to loop movement.

 

No, access to the loop requires Lever 9 (Point) and Lever 10 (Disc) to be reversed.  

 

Locking Table   https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwe/S906-3.pdf

Edited March 26, 2020 by Pannier Tank
Added link to Locking Table

[RailWest]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

A nice spot although alas I didn't get there until after the signals had disappeared.

By the time I got there all the track had gone as well :-(

[Happy Hippo]

 

48 minutes ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

No, access to the loop requires Lever 9 (Point) and Lever 10 (Disc) to be reversed.  

 

Locking Table   https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwe/S906-3.pdf

Thank you David, I'm being a bit thick here.

 

Having looked at the locking table and the track diagram, I can now see that there is no interlocking between the home signal and the ground disc.

 

So from what you are saying, a locomotive standing at signal 12  which remains on, can proceed onto the loop, providing the road is correctly set and the ground disc 10 has been pulled off.

 

This would imply that for the purposes of that move, signals 10 and 12 are co-located.

 

I've asked because I have a similar situation on a model I'm designing, and I just wanted to get the operational side correct in my head before I start writing an operating schedule for other operators.

 

My apologies to Steve for an apparent thread hijack, but it did seem relevant as the picture shown was exactly the same situation as I was puzzling over.

 

 

 

 

 

[Pannier Tank]

38 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

 

Thank you David, I'm being a bit thick here.

 

Having looked at the locking table and the track diagram, I can now see that there is no interlocking between the home signal and the ground disc.

 

So from what you are saying, a locomotive standing at signal 12  which remains on, can proceed onto the loop, providing the road is correctly set and the ground disc 10 has been pulled off.

 

This would imply that for the purposes of that move, signals 10 and 12 are co-located.

 

I've asked because I have a similar situation on a model I'm designing, and I just wanted to get the operational side correct in my head before I start writing an operating schedule for other operators.

 

My apologies to Steve for an apparent thread hijack, but it did seem relevant as the picture shown was exactly the same situation as I was puzzling over.

 

Hello Richard,

 

Lever 9 Locks 1,5 & 11   - As Lever 11 Releases 12 you can see that Lever 9 effectively Locks Lever 12

 

Also Disc 10 has White & Green Aspects so that when Signal 10 is 'on' and Signal 12 is cleared the train doesn't pass a Red Aspect

 

40 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

So from what you are saying, a locomotive standing at signal 12  which remains on, can proceed onto the loop, providing the road is correctly set and the ground disc 10 has been pulled off.

 

Yes.

[Happy Hippo]

David,

 

Thanks you for your help.

 

I can get a bit woolly when it comes to the relationship between ground signals and the ones on the big sticks.

[Pannier Tank]

22 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

 

Thanks you for your help.

 

 

You are welcome.

[RailWest]

>>> So from what you are saying, a locomotive standing at signal 12  which remains on, can proceed onto the loop, providing the road is correctly set and the ground disc 10 has been pulled off.

 

>>>Yes.

 

Sorry, but I must disagree as it is not quite that cut-and-dried. 

 

Signals 12 and 10 are not co-located, as 10 is in advance of 12 (although not by much) as the photo shows. A locomotive standing in rear of 12 should not proceed past that signal at danger simply because 10 is off without specific authorisation from the signalman. 

 

The usual situation would be that an engine has come out from either the loop or the platform line as a shunting movement and is standing in rear of 10 but in advance of 12. In such a case 12 does not apply to it, as it it is not (entirely) in rear of that signal, and so it can move forward again when 10 comes off.

 

I'll wait now to see if Stationmaster corrects me:- :-)

[Pannier Tank]

25 minutes ago, RailWest said:

Sorry, but I must disagree as it is not quite that cut-and-dried. 

 

Signals 12 and 10 are not co-located, as 10 is in advance of 12 (although not by much) as the photo shows. A locomotive standing in rear of 12 should not proceed past that signal at danger simply because 10 is off without specific authorisation from the signalman. 

 

The usual situation would be that an engine has come out from either the loop or the platform line as a shunting movement and is standing in rear of 10 but in advance of 12. In such a case 12 does not apply to it, as it it is not (entirely) in rear of that signal, and so it can move forward again when 10 comes off.

 

 

That maybe so with a Light Engine. However, when the Goods Train is being Shunted, the Train Engine will be in the rear of the Down Home Signal, so the Driver will pass the Down Home Signal in the 'on' position when 10 is 'off'.

[Steve Hewitt]

Collecting the components together.......

Starting with the Concrete Post.

This is a white metal casting from MSE.

Once all the casting flash had been clean off it seems fairly straight.

 

In order to mount the post I have decided to make a suitable socket from square brass tube.

The lower end of the post was turned to fit.

This socket will also raise the post a few mm. required to ensure the arm is at 23ft above rail height.

 

The top of the post was drilled to take the spigot on a Modelu square post finial.

 

Modelu also supplied the signal lamp.

 

The 4ft signal arm was assembled from a Masokits etch.

 

As was the back blinder.

The bracket for the weight bar is from a MSE etch. The weight bar is a Les Green etch.

 

MSE for the lamp bracket as well.

 

The landing was assembled from a Les Green etch, two lace pins and a folded up brass base.

Wooden stage boards will be added much laster.

 

 

Next are the signals foundations.

It will be mounted in a 1/2in. dia hole in the 9mm ply baseboard.

Here are the components for the foundations:

From the left:-

The Nickel silver baseplate, drilled for the turning which locates the square socket mentioned earlier.

The turning for the socket;

A length of 1/16th in. brass tube to guide the operating wire;

The 1/2in brass tube wish supports the baseplate and locates the signal in the baseboard. This tube also locates the servo motor bracket - much later.....

 

Assembly is about to start...

 

Steve.

 

 

[roythebus]

In which case there must be a local instruction permitting this to happen, or it's done with the verbal permission of the signalman.

[Pannier Tank]

10 hours ago, Steve Hewitt said:

Collecting the components together.......

 

Starting with the Concrete Post.

 

Assembly is about to start...

 

Steve.

 

 

Hello Steve,

 

Following this thread with interest!

 

Nice to see the individual components before assembly commences.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Another following with interest, marvellous work 

 

Did you have any difficulty turning the spigot on the end of the main post, given that it’s tapered? I presume you used a standard 4-jaw chuck?

[RailWest]

14 hours ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

That maybe so with a Light Engine. However, when the Goods Train is being Shunted, the Train Engine will be in the rear of the Down Home Signal, so the Driver will pass the Down Home Signal in the 'on' position when 10 is 'off'.

Yes, but...the circumstances are different.

 

With a train (ie more than just an engine) being shunted, then this is a shunting movement which comes out of the loop or platform line and should stop with the rear of the train just in rear of disc 10. Any movement back into the loop is then controlled purely by 10. The fact that most of the train might well extend well outside of the Down Home is irrelevant and so 12 can be ignored in those circumstances.

[Pannier Tank]

39 minutes ago, RailWest said:

Yes, but...the circumstances are different.

 

With a train (ie more than just an engine) being shunted, then this is a shunting movement which comes out of the loop or platform line and should stop with the rear of the train just in rear of disc 10. Any movement back into the loop is then controlled purely by 10. The fact that most of the train might well extend well outside of the Down Home is irrelevant and so 12 can be ignored in those circumstances.

 

How would a Light Engine from Newton Abbott arriving at the Down Home Signal and needing access to the Loop be dealt with?

[Steve Hewitt]

7 hours ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

Another following with interest, marvellous work 

 

Did you have any difficulty turning the spigot on the end of the main post, given that it’s tapered? I presume you used a standard 4-jaw chuck?

Hi,

Thanks for your interest.

 

Yes, I use a four jaw chuck, but its not the usual type with independent jaws.

I bought a Self Centring four jaw chuck a few years ago, and its extremely useful.

 

To hold the taper of the cast post, I simply wrap a few turns of masking tape around the part where the rear of the chuck jaws will grip.

Compare the size with the area gripped by the front of the jaws to get a true running workpiece.

 

I also used masking tape at the other end of the post to hold it for drilling the Finial location hole.

 

With small jobs like this on soft materials I find the approach works well.

If turning steel I'd calculate the packing required at each jaw position and machine brass inserts to suit.

 

Steve.

 

 

[Steve Hewitt]

23 hours ago, Steve Hewitt said:

 

Next are the signals foundations.

It will be mounted in a 1/2in. dia hole in the 9mm ply baseboard.

Here are the components for the foundations:

From the left:-

The Nickel silver baseplate, drilled for the turning which locates the square socket mentioned earlier.

The turning for the socket;

A length of 1/16th in. brass tube to guide the operating wire;

The 1/2in brass tube wish supports the baseplate and locates the signal in the baseboard. This tube also locates the servo motor bracket - much later.....

 

Assembly is about to start...

 

Steve.

 

 

Assembly....

 

The foundations' components are designed to ensure the signal will stand vertically on the baseboard.

 

The brass turning is first fitted into the baseplate where it will then ensure the square Socket is vertical and concentric with whole assembly.

 

The Turning in place  in the Baseplate, flooded with liquid flux.

 

A quick application of heat from the blowtorch and a small piece of solder.

 

The Guide Tube for the Operating Wire is soldered in place.

It is soldered to the baseplate and also has a short  anchor fixing it to the bottom of the Turning.

 

The Anchor is just an off-cut from an etch.

The bottom of the Turning had been drilled out to reduce its "heat capacity", making it easier to solder.

 

The view from above.

 

The 1/2in Brass Tube which locates the signal in the baseboard fits the Turning precisely.

 

More flux, solder and heat from the blowtorch .

 

 

A quick spin in the lathe to check it all looks square and concentric.

 

The square brass Socket is soldered in place, square with baseplate.

 

 

Next will be the signal itself............

 

Steve.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

13 hours ago, Steve Hewitt said:

Hi,

Thanks for your interest.

 

Yes, I use a four jaw chuck, but its not the usual type with independent jaws.

I bought a Self Centring four jaw chuck a few years ago, and its extremely useful.

 

To hold the taper of the cast post, I simply wrap a few turns of masking tape around the part where the rear of the chuck jaws will grip.

Compare the size with the area gripped by the front of the jaws to get a true running workpiece.

 

I also used masking tape at the other end of the post to hold it for drilling the Finial location hole.

 

With small jobs like this on soft materials I find the approach works well.

If turning steel I'd calculate the packing required at each jaw position and machine brass inserts to suit.

 

Steve.

 

 

 

The simple solutions are usually the best ones. Thanks for the info