MattWallace Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Hi all, I've got the track laid now for blockwall jct and my thoughts are turning to signalling. The layout is as follows: And my current thoughts are: GPL in the shed/fuel area GPL in the docs area and road leading directly from docks to shed Aspect for the road as it leaves the docks and heads for the FY (this is effectively the "mainline") Aspect for the branchline station My only concerns with this (apart from the fact I know nothing about signalling save what I've read on Wikipaedia!) are that I've heard about token sections (could this be what the branch line would use?) and I've also heard that most shunting yards etc would probably only use a radio. Any clarification for my sanity is more than welcome Thanks in advance, Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2012 Matt - Can you be specific about geographical area/railway Region (or Sector!!) and period modelled please? Looking quickly at your plan without that information I wouldn't have any signals at all on the 'purple track' (although it might merit the odd noticeboard or three - depends on Region and period modelled) with the possible exception of a DPS (Depot Protection System) where the two roads run into the depot building. As far as the 'green line ' is concerned you need a running signal (2 aspect with some sort of route indicator) approaching the station and a running signal for each platform line for departures (either 2 or 3 aspect signals could be used for that). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattWallace Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 Hi, sorry, forgot all the important stuff like that The era is "now" (or at least as close to "now" as I can get) and although it didn't start off this way it is (very, very!) loosely based in the south-Wales area (giving me an opportunity to run GBRf stuff now that they have taken over at Tremorfa and a couple of 2-car DMUs) The "purple" line is actually two lines looking at it. I'll get it re-coloured and post it back up later on however for the time being the "bottom" section (leading from the docks to the sheds) is for shunting/loco movement to TMD and the "top" section (leading from the north-west of the single slip away into the fiddle yard) is meant to represent access from the docks to the mainline. Hope that helps? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I'm with Mike on the green lines. The purple I think are more complicated...... In effect you have the purple, leading from the rest of the world to the dock, therefore if trains are going to arrive off scene onto either of those , you would need to protect them from the depot, so I would think a 2 aspect signal controlling departure from the depot. I would think B4 the 2 lines become one into the docks a board saying 'STOP, await instructions' You would also need a way of protecting departures from the docks so probably 2 aspects as well controlling departure. I am not a signalling expert, so could be proved wrong.We do have beast66606 who does know intimately about these things so may be worth a PM to him... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2012 It helps Matt. Dividing the purple bit in the way you have doesn't really make much difference as it happens but knowing about the mainline connect towards the single slip is useful. I think the only thing you essentially need is a 'STOP' And Await Instructions' board where that line approaches the slip(?) which lies underneath the wording 'Main Scenic Area'. If you wish you could add a 3 aspect running signal where this line goes towards the 'main line' as iyt enters the fiddle yard but equally you could reasonably assume that signal is 'off scene'. As mentioned above you could have DPS for the two shed roads at the depot although I don't consider it's essential and the work to provide DOPPS 'might not have been completed yet'. And on the simplest level - assuming you want to keep it simple of course, that's the bare minimum you need. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted July 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2012 I am not a signalling expert, so could be proved wrong.We do have beast66606 who does know intimately about these things so may be worth a PM to him... StationMaster knows a thing or two too ! - we (the signalling mafia was we are often called) are polite people and don't tend to dive in once another (there are a few of us - apparently, we just consider ourselves helpful souls) has started answering, unless there are specific points to be answered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattWallace Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 Thanks both, here's a version that has a much better block colouring: although I'm not sure that's going to change anything based on what's above Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2012 StationMaster knows a thing or two too ! - we (the signalling mafia was we are often called) are polite people and don't tend to dive in once another (there are a few of us - apparently, we just consider ourselves helpful souls) has started answering, unless there are specific points to be answered. Indeed so - and having been SQL'd out for the past 25 minutes or so I couldn't get my amended version up so here it is, including dealing with the points raised by Rob D2 regarding signals near the depot. Sorry it has been so long in hyper-space and that it starts off by repeating (and dealing with typos I hope) from my earlier reply! Dividing the purple bit in the way you have doesn't really make much difference as it happens but knowing about the mainline connection towards the single slip is useful. I think the only thing you essentially need is a 'STOP And Await Instructions' board where that line approaches the slip(?) which lies underneath the wording 'Main Scenic Area', you could possibly also have a similar board for the line from the depot but I wouldn't consider it essential as the whole area is sidings and Drivers should be on the lookout for Shunters' handsignals. If you wish you could add a 3 aspect running signal where this line goes towards the 'main line' as it enters the fiddle yard but equally you could reasonably assume that signal is 'off scene'.

 As mentioned above you could have DPS for the two shed roads at the depot although I don't consider it's essential and the work to provide DPS 'might not have been completed yet'.

 And on the simplest level - assuming you want to keep it simple of course, that's the bare minimum you need. BTW having read Rob D2's comments you wouldn't have colour light signals protecting the route from the depot towards the sidings - I can't offhand think of anywhere in South Wales which had such an arrangement although there were more signals about in the days when some of the former signalboxes survived (i.e just into the 1970s) - almost exclusively semaphore of courses - but we did away with that sort of thing on the Western way before the period you have in mind and reduced it all down to a very basic railway only having signals where lines from sidings areas such as this joined the running lines and in most instances having either a Shunter's Switch or a STOP board in the opposite direction - the board being the most appropriate in this situation (although I must admit in several schemes in the late 1980s/early'90s to purposely specifying a signal with a fixed red aspect instead but the reasons for doing that wouldn't - I think - really exist here). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2012 Thanks both, here's a version that has a much better block colouring: although I'm not sure that's going to change anything based on what's above I don't think it changes anything although were does that line go (in imagined reality that is) which vanishes towards the hidden sidings near the loco depot - that might precipitate a change depending on what it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattWallace Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't think it changes anything although were does that line go (in imagined reality that is) which vanishes towards the hidden sidings near the loco depot - that might precipitate a change depending on what it is. The line in light green that vanishes into the hidden sidings is the connect between the dock area and the mainline (also imagined) to which the branchline also joins. The "entry" to the fiddle yard will be a concrete bridge which will connect to the mainline in a similar manner to how the tracks all converge at Severn Tunnel Junction before diving under the M4. I'm hoping that if I ever move into my own house I'll be able to take over the loft and extend out from this layout through the FY (hidden sidings) onto a "proper" mainline. Based on this and the comments above, I'm thinking that aspect signals are required for each of the platforms and then again as the branchline "joins" the mainline at the entrance to the fiddleyard/hidden sidings. There would then be a number of "STOP" signs where the spur from the mainline (light green) enters the docks and everything from there would be "controlled" by radio and a shunter. I would then (possibly) place another Aspect Signal where the spur faces into the FY and "joins" the mainline? As I said, this is *very* loosely based on south-Wales and some of the more interesting features that I've seen as I've been travelling around the area. If the above isn't clear, let me know and I'll try and mark it on the diagram. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2012 You won't need a signal where the passenger line goes under the bridge - you've already got signals at the platform and they are well within the maximum permissible distance from where the hypothetical junction is. You will need a 3aspect signal for the light green (docks to mainline) line where it goes under the bridge - and a STOP board at the other end of that line just short of the slip for trains coming in. What does the line from the depot do - does that also join the mainline beyond the bridge? If it does then it too will need either a GPL (most likely as we're talking Western here) or a 3 aspect signal immediately before it goes under the bridge in order to control access to the main lines. I am assuming that the dock and depot line come together under the bridge and are trapped there before they join the main line - this will avoid any complication at the connection into the depot itself. If the intention is that locos will come from the hidden sidings on the line nearer the baseboard edge in order to enter the depot then you will definitely need a STOP board on that line where it joins the docks line - just in rear of the slip. This then separates depot moves from any going via the other route towards the dock sidings. Incidentally I'm not entirely sure what would go on at the depot - it looks to be unsuitable for anything more than relatively minor exams thus the shed would be only a servicing shed (as per Ebbw Jcn and Margam, as well as part of Canton, so it is where fuelling would take place - not on a separate outdoor fuelling road - I can't thnk of any Western diesel depot where fuelling of locos was normnally carried out anywhere but in a shed as this allowed Fuel Point Inspections to be carried out while fuelling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattWallace Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 You won't need a signal where the passenger line goes under the bridge - you've already got signals at the platform and they are well within the maximum permissible distance from where the hypothetical junction is. You will need a 3aspect signal for the light green (docks to mainline) line where it goes under the bridge - and a STOP board at the other end of that line just short of the slip for trains coming in. What does the line from the depot do - does that also join the mainline beyond the bridge? If it does then it too will need either a GPL (most likely as we're talking Western here) or a 3 aspect signal immediately before it goes under the bridge in order to control access to the main lines. I am assuming that the dock and depot line come together under the bridge and are trapped there before they join the main line - this will avoid any complication at the connection into the depot itself. If the intention is that locos will come from the hidden sidings on the line nearer the baseboard edge in order to enter the depot then you will definitely need a STOP board on that line where it joins the docks line - just in rear of the slip. This then separates depot moves from any going via the other route towards the dock sidings. Thanks. It is my intention that trains for the docks will come in on both lines, however the main route will be via the light-green line. Incidentally I'm not entirely sure what would go on at the depot - it looks to be unsuitable for anything more than relatively minor exams thus the shed would be only a servicing shed (as per Ebbw Jcn and Margam, as well as part of Canton, so it is where fuelling would take place - not on a separate outdoor fuelling road - I can't thnk of any Western diesel depot where fuelling of locos was normnally carried out anywhere but in a shed as this allowed Fuel Point Inspections to be carried out while fuelling. So that leaves me with two options then: 1) Artistic license 2) Opening up to suggestions... I started off not caring about how prototypical it was, now I'm starting to care a great deal and I'm wondering if I've build a green diesel/steam track plan for my modern traction! To be honest, the shed is not a fixed thing, it's certainly not attached to the board yet in any manner and I have plenty of space to store it (I'm sure it will be used on the next iteration of this layout when it gets extended!) so if you have a suggestion about that area of the board (preferably repurposing the existing track plan, but that's not essential, nothing has been glued yet!) that I'd be more than willing to consider it! Thanks for all the help, Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2012 So that leaves me with two options then: 1) Artistic license 2) Opening up to suggestions... I started off not caring about how prototypical it was, now I'm starting to care a great deal and I'm wondering if I've build a green diesel/steam track plan for my modern traction! To be honest, the shed is not a fixed thing, it's certainly not attached to the board yet in any manner and I have plenty of space to store it (I'm sure it will be used on the next iteration of this layout when it gets extended!) so if you have a suggestion about that area of the board (preferably repurposing the existing track plan, but that's not essential, nothing has been glued yet!) that I'd be more than willing to consider it! Thanks for all the help, Matt Nothing to stop you using it as a servicing shed and depot Matt (except the way EWS started to do things with refuelling by road tankers etc) and the WR servicing depots in South Wales tended to collect large numbers of locos at times, especially Margam. Alternatively you could perhaps develop it as an industry with a large building processing steel to make rod or wire - plenty of wagons in and out then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Sorry station master , I didn't realise you were a signal guru too ! Question then, on matts scheme , which also relevant to my own. I'm coming off the depot towards the docks . On my left is a bridge with the line infron the fiddle , saying a train is coming down there to the docks , what stops me getting whacked by him if I proceed - would we both have stop await instructions boards ? I'm wondering how far you can take the 'STOP' boards before you need signals . So the depot wouldn't have an outlet signal of any sort ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2012 Sorry station master , I didn't realise you were a signal guru too ! Question then, on matts scheme , which also relevant to my own. I'm coming off the depot towards the docks . On my left is a bridge with the line infron the fiddle , saying a train is coming down there to the docks , what stops me getting whacked by him if I proceed - would we both have stop await instructions boards ? I'm wondering how far you can take the 'STOP' boards before you need signals . So the depot wouldn't have an outlet signal of any sort ? In a poorly sited situation like that there is far more likely to be a telephone procedure in place between the signalbox and the loco depot mainly because there would be no one on the ground in control of that area. The main use of STOP boards on the Western was to act as the limiting point for a movement towards an area where 'someone' was in control on the ground - thus we have the board(s) 'guarding the approach to the dock area. But even then the provision of a board approaching that area from the depot is debatable because it could be said that the Driver of the loco is expecting to see a Shunter anyway so will stop at the relevant place to wait his handsignal. The counter to that is that the Driver might forget and therefore there should be a STOP board - hence a tendency for STOP boards to sometimes suddenly appear in the aftermath of collisions. The counter idea - of providing fixed signals - starts getting very expensive. To properly signal the depot connection with even ground position lights - and we are talking only a single point involved - would have probably exceeded £100,000 back in BR days, to do it on the current railway would probably mean a cost of nearer £250,000 or more by the time design and various safety assessments are added in and the level/type of movements would be unlikely to justify it. The other difference - which modellers either don't know about or tend to ignore (for very good reasons) is that small loco depots are something which has largely vanished due to the impact of Class 66s which can effectively be left in traffic for a long time being fuelled from road tankers or small static tanks where they are working and being attended by mobile fitters who turn up in a van. Locos only need to go to somewhere suitable for changing brake blocks - everything else is left for major exams at big concentrated depots which might be capable of handling an operator's entire fleet. Meanwhile quite large numbers of locos are simply left out in sidings handy to where they work from. It's been almost a revolution by stealth but the Class 66 has made a major impact on the need for depot facilities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattWallace Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 The other difference - which modellers either don't know about or tend to ignore (for very good reasons) is that small loco depots are something which has largely vanished due to the impact of Class 66s which can effectively be left in traffic for a long time being fuelled from road tankers or small static tanks where they are working and being attended by mobile fitters who turn up in a van. Locos only need to go to somewhere suitable for changing brake blocks - everything else is left for major exams at big concentrated depots which might be capable of handling an operator's entire fleet. Meanwhile quite large numbers of locos are simply left out in sidings handy to where they work from. It's been almost a revolution by stealth but the Class 66 has made a major impact on the need for depot facilities. So in order to be "prototypical" I should really have a stretch of layout that is at least 25' x 12' just for the maintenance yard? I'm seriously thinking about the "industrial" setting you've mentioned - I'm sorely tempted by the Judith Edge DH-50 kit given that GBRf are now operating one at Tremorfa alongside the gronks and 66's so I may well look into that side of things too. I am assuming that I would then have an aspect signal on the way "out" of the layout into the hidden sidings and STOP signs at various locations around the "main" area of the layout as most (all?) traffic would be controlled by radio? I've not started on scenics yet, I'm concentrating on the wiring and connection of the points, so I've got a lot of time to make up my mind (which is probably a good thing!) Thanks again, Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2012 So in order to be "prototypical" I should really have a stretch of layout that is at least 25' x 12' just for the maintenance yard? About enough space to fit in Canton or Toton perhaps I'm seriously thinking about the "industrial" setting you've mentioned - I'm sorely tempted by the Judith Edge DH-50 kit given that GBRf are now operating one at Tremorfa alongside the gronks and 66's so I may well look into that side of things too. I am assuming that I would then have an aspect signal on the way "out" of the layout into the hidden sidings and STOP signs at various locations around the "main" area of the layout as most (all?) traffic would be controlled by radio? Thanks again, Matt If the track isn't down (although it sounds like it is) I would be sorely tempted to move the point that leads into the depot closer towards the dock area to create more shunting and clear standage space if it's going to be an industrial area - that's the way we do it in reality in order to remove potential areas of conflict. If you're stuck with the track in the positions shown on your latest plan you are possibly going to have to get a bit more complicate - the simplest answer is to make the light green line primarily for arrivals (but still signalled for departures) and make the other on e 'departures only' OR just assume that the other one is part of the industrial area and it doesn't handle either arrivals or departures. The second option should create a lot of operational interest with the need to avoid conflicts of trains arriving and departing and plenty of shunting amusement (if that's what you want). The first option will avoid lots of STOP boards and or extra signals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I hear you mike, And I agree that alot of TMD layouts do overlook the modern railway in this respect . I think if you want to model a old style TMD then the cutoff is early 00s.If you are basing it in the modern world I would do something like Tyne Yard - i.e some portacabins and the fuel kit contained in a 20' container, with just one line running by. I do think the big Bachmann modern 'old oak ish' shed is great but it's becoming the 'bus on a bridge' cliche... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattWallace Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 I'm really glad I started this thread as it has made me look long and hard at whether I should simplify my track plan even further. Playing around last night, I came up with this (which involves minimal track re-laying and only makes one part redundant) This now clears up any confusion about which line is the connection to the (invisible) main-line, gives me two receiving sidings for the 66's (and others!) to leave/collect the wagons with a head-shunt to get a shunter behind the wagons to propel them into the works, a 2-road "plant" building and some space for maintenance of the locos as well as a "branchline" to run some commuter stuff on when I get bored of the industrial stuff I've also started to put some signalling in (although it's difficult to see at this zoom level) which basically consists of: 1 aspect signal on the way "out" of the works onto the "mainline" 2 aspect signals (one for each platform) on the branchline The rest of the "signalling" as far as I can tell from the posts above would be either "STOP" boards or controlled by radio on the ground. Thankfully none of the track has been glued yet (although some of the points that will be removed have been wired but this is easy to resolve!) so I can modify my current layout quite quickly to this. What do you all think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 ............As far as the 'green line ' is concerned you need a running signal (2 aspect with some sort of route indicator) approaching the station and a running signal for each platform line for departures (either 2 or 3 aspect signals could be used for that). Forgive me if I've missed this elsewhere in the thread; ref the station approach signal with route indicator - would this be done with a two aspect signal only clearing to yellow as the next is a compulsory stop (buffer) or would it be equally valid to have some form of shunt or call on aspect meaning that the main signal would never have to be cleared ? Rgds, Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 2, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 2, 2012 I'm really glad I started this thread as it has made me look long and hard at whether I should simplify my track plan even further. Playing around last night, I came up with this (which involves minimal track re-laying and only makes one part redundant) This now clears up any confusion about which line is the connection to the (invisible) main-line, gives me two receiving sidings for the 66's (and others!) to leave/collect the wagons with a head-shunt to get a shunter behind the wagons to propel them into the works, a 2-road "plant" building and some space for maintenance of the locos as well as a "branchline" to run some commuter stuff on when I get bored of the industrial stuff I've also started to put some signalling in (although it's difficult to see at this zoom level) which basically consists of: 1 aspect signal on the way "out" of the works onto the "mainline" 2 aspect signals (one for each platform) on the branchline The rest of the "signalling" as far as I can tell from the posts above would be either "STOP" boards or controlled by radio on the ground. Thankfully none of the track has been glued yet (although some of the points that will be removed have been wired but this is easy to resolve!) so I can modify my current layout quite quickly to this. What do you all think? Excellent idea in many respects - all you need 'signalling wise are the two STOP boards - one for each line - approaching the 'receiving sidings'. You might also find it beneficial , if you can work it in, to add a third line at those sidings where you could leave outwards wagons ready for the mainline loco or use it as an additional loop because I think you might find working with just the two lines will be a bit restrictive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 2, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 2, 2012 Forgive me if I've missed this elsewhere in the thread; ref the station approach signal with route indicator - would this be done with a two aspect signal only clearing to yellow as the next is a compulsory stop (buffer) or would it be equally valid to have some form of shunt or call on aspect meaning that the main signal would never have to be cleared Rgds, Andy Two aspect signal clearing to yellow as it is - as you surmise - reading towards a red 'signal' in the shape of the buffer stop (lamps). You would only add a subsidiary if it is intended to bring a second train into an occupied platform. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I think that's better matt , I was going to say , why have a big depot seemingly serving only 2 dockside sidings ! I think the works will enable more interesting wagon shunting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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