pH Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 (edited) Can I get a mulligan on that last post? I went back to look at my notes for the day I took this picture - http://www.flickr.com/photos/80572914@N06/7885507652/in/set-72157630164445452 and they say 'blue nameplate'! I had looked at the picture, but wasn't sure about the colour. I said I'd seen a couple of pictures dated 1965, where the plate did not appear blue. Here they are - http://railphotoarchive.org/rpc_zoom.php?img=1637020040000 and http://www.flickr.com/photos/barkingbill/2480558831/. The plates don't look blue to me. Perhaps 60532 was shopped between September 1963 and the dates of those pictures, the blue backing was removed from the nameplates at the works, then the plates were repainted again. (Edit to correct link) Edited January 9, 2013 by pH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steele Road Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I found this BBC Radio Scotland documentary about Riccarton Junction on an old tape recently and have transferred it to MP3 for you: https://soundcloud.com/northwestaudioarchive/radio-scotland-riccarton 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37175 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I found this BBC Radio Scotland documentary about Riccarton Junction on an old tape recently and have transferred it to MP3 for you: https://soundcloud.com/northwestaudioarchive/radio-scotland-riccarton I'm amazed you've still got a copy of this - thanks for digitising it - it sounds great after all this time! Did it need much processing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steele Road Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I didn't have to do much to it at all really, just a trim and a level boost and a bit of EQ to reduce the tape noise as it had a bit of hiss. So nice to find it and get it transferred and uploaded for an appreciative audience! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Re colour of Blue Peter's nameplates, I've found quite a few b&w shots from May - July 1966 which suggest that the plates had a black background at that time. One colour photograph quite clearly shows a black background on a claimed date of 1/9/66. However this is certainly erroneous as the buffer heads and smokebox door straps are not painted white, which they were at that date, and I believe it may date from the end of June 1966 when the photographer took a number of other shots south of Stonehaven which appear in the same album. The white embellishments on the smokebox door (but not the buffers) and blue numberplates were present for the LCGB A2 Commemorative Railtour on 14/8/66 and I would suggest they were probably acquired immediately before that tour. Incidentally, a WJV Anderson colour shot from January 1964 hints that the nameplates may have been blue back then. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 One colour photograph quite clearly shows a black background on a claimed date of 1/9/66. However this is certainly erroneous as the buffer heads and smokebox door straps are not painted white, which they were at that date, and I believe it may date from the end of June 1966 when the photographer took a number of other shots south of Stonehaven which appear in the same album. Is that a Derek Penney picture, Bill? If so, I've seen that same one. I'm now wondering if, latterly, there were two sets of nameplates - one set with blue backgrounds and another, wooden set with black backgrounds. The wooden ones would have been used in everyday service (in case of theft) and the 'proper' blue ones used for special occasions. Some Brits definitely ran with wooden plates after their metal ones were removed for safe keeping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37175 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Re colour of Blue Peter's nameplates, I've found quite a few b&w shots from May - July 1966 which suggest that the plates had a black background at that time. One colour photograph quite clearly shows a black background on a claimed date of 1/9/66. However this is certainly erroneous as the buffer heads and smokebox door straps are not painted white, which they were at that date, and I believe it may date from the end of June 1966 when the photographer took a number of other shots south of Stonehaven which appear in the same album. The white embellishments on the smokebox door (but not the buffers) and blue numberplates were present for the LCGB A2 Commemorative Railtour on 14/8/66 and I would suggest they were probably acquired immediately before that tour. Incidentally, a WJV Anderson colour shot from January 1964 hints that the nameplates may have been blue back then. Bill Found this one last night at Forfar (undated) showing buffers freshly whitened ..... http://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/5096168513/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Is that a Derek Penney picture, Bill? If so, I've seen that same one. I'm now wondering if, latterly, there were two sets of nameplates - one set with blue backgrounds and another, wooden set with black backgrounds. The wooden ones would have been used in everyday service (in case of theft) and the 'proper' blue ones used for special occasions. Some Brits definitely ran with wooden plates after their metal ones were removed for safe keeping. pH, Yes, it is a Derek Penney shot - page 89 in "Steam in the Scottish Landscape" by Michael Welch. I know the wooden nameplates you mean on the Brits and they had a very distinctive look - the one in Derek Penney's photograph has a three dimensional quality about it which suggests it is a proper cast plate. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 PS It appears that 60532 was the last Peppercorn Pacific to be overhauled at Darlington Works. I can't find a date for this but I assume it would have been in 1964/65. Darlington would have given the nameplates the proper black background for green locos on that occasion if they had been blue previously. Bill 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 16, 2013 Author Share Posted January 16, 2013 Manual handling at Crookston. http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=41724 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newcastleton P.Way Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Manual handling at Crookston. http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=41724 This lot must have been broken down in-situ as opposed to departing in panels: why else would these two worthies be pulling elastic spikes out manually? Sad to say we're still eradicating BR1 baseplates and elastic spikes (the most shocking fastening system known to man) from the national network to this day, and plenty left to be going at. As I've said before, the WR is just a BADLY over-running track renewal.... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 As David Spaven says in the caption to the photograph, track removal was being undertaken by contractors and was probably road based. As a matter of interest, a plan which I have in my possession shows that particular length of the up line as having been relaid with 109lb rail in 1959. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newcastleton P.Way Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 As David Spaven says in the caption to the photograph, track removal was being undertaken by contractors and was probably road based. As a matter of interest, a plan which I have in my possession shows that particular length of the up line as having been relaid with 109lb rail in 1959. I believe the contractor was Eagre Ltd, which became respectively Grant Lyon Eagre, Grant Rail and Volker Rail, still with us to this day. It's interesting to note that huge swathes of the WR were relaid with 109lb flat bottom in the 10- 15 years prior to closure: I can only guess what effect it had on the balance sheet. The ultimate irony is that upon tracklifting in the early seventies it was all obsolete, with 113A rail and the Pandrol clip being BR's new "standard" for the network. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 It was still re-used mind, wasn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 This lot must have been broken down in-situ as opposed to departing in panels: why else would these two worthies be pulling elastic spikes out manually? Sad to say we're still eradicating BR1 baseplates and elastic spikes (the most shocking fastening system known to man) from the national network to this day, and plenty left to be going at.As I've said before, the WR is just a BADLY over-running track renewal.... To put elastic spikes in context, flat bottom rail had only been in general use in this country since after nationalisation (the Big Four had experimented with it from the mid thirties and would no doubt have adopted FB as standard if they had continued in existence - well, perhaps not the GWR!). BR would therefore have been on a learning curve through the fifties and, reading between the lines in my 1971 copy of the PWI's "British Railway Track", it would seem BR had arrived at the same sentiments as above regarding elastic spikes about 50 years ago - "Experience showed that in practice the toe load on the rail of these spikes varied widely, that gauge retention was not good and that track had to be renewed because of the deterioration of the fastening system as a whole. The dual function elastic spike was found to be inadequate for British Rail service conditions generally" (dual function refers to holding the rails to the baseplates and the baseplates to the sleepers). Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newcastleton P.Way Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 You can understand experimentation, but to purchase and intall large volumes of a fastening system before it had been proved in practice was sheer stupidity. The elastic spike was the p.way version of the Class 17 Clayton: little wonder BR was broke in the sixties.... Spikes are well known for losing their hold in the sleeper and baseplate UNTIL you want to remove them, when all of a sudden they put up the most ferocious fight. We are still removing MILES of BR1s and elastic spikes in 2013. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 It's easy to slag off decisions made sixty years ago, especially with the benefit of all that hindsight, but one needs to be careful of accusing the pway engineers of the fifties of "sheer stupidity" without knowing all the factors involved that led to the decision to go down a particular route. Bill 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Spikes are well known for losing their hold in the sleeper and baseplate UNTIL you want to remove them, when all of a sudden they put up the most ferocious fight. We are still removing MILES of BR1s and elastic spikes in 2013. This may be going way OT ... however. Spikes are used extensively to fix track in North America (at least in the areas that I'm familiar with), and that is to handle heavy mainline traffic. What is the difference between those spikes and the ones used on BR? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newcastleton P.Way Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 It's easy to slag off decisions made sixty years ago, especially with the benefit of all that hindsight, but one needs to be careful of accusing the pway engineers of the fifties of "sheer stupidity" without knowing all the factors involved that led to the decision to go down a particular route. Bill The fact is that BR mass- produced fastening systems in the 50's and 60's which were not properly tested, in use on other railway sytems outside these shores or for which experience in service existed. Examples included the elastic spike, the AD (Arthur Dean), the L1 lockspike, the SHC (Spring Hoop Clip), the RD (Research Department), the list goes on. Many, almost all, proved unfit for purpose in a very short space of time. Some have even been responsible for a few notable derailments. The one thing they ALL have in common though is that BR installed hundreds, possibly thousands, of miles of each of them in a relatively narrow timeframe at an undoubtedly high cost. Sadly, a new generation of engineers, section managers and track staff have the headache of keeping miles of this rubbish in day to day service, even in 2013. These guys would rather see early flat bottom track relaid than considerably older, but easier to maintain, bullhead on S1 chairs installed by the pre- nationalisation companies. As one of their number, I have no hesitation in describing the decision to rush ahead with these fastening systems as "sheer stupidity". If you don't believe ME, I'm more than happy to call upon the testimonies of MANY colleagues. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newcastleton P.Way Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 This may be going way OT ... however. Spikes are used extensively to fix track in North America (at least in the areas that I'm familiar with), and that is to handle heavy mainline traffic. What is the difference between those spikes and the ones used on BR? American sharp- ended dogspikes traditionally spiked the foot of the rail directly into the hardwood "tie". The seating area of the sleeper was usually adzed to give the correct inclination to the rail. The elastic spike, as Bill states, carried out a dual function: fixing the BR1 baseplate to the sleeper AND fixing the rail to the baseplate. The baseplate was necessary due to the predominant use of softwood pine sleepers in the UK. In practice, the round- ended elastic spike quickly lost its hold in the softwood sleeper under traffic, resulting in gauge spread, loss of toe- load on the rail, rail creep, baseplate shuffle and other p.way maladies... The Yanks frequently did better than us, for instance with their early adoption of the air brake.... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62440 Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Nice shot of Whitrope in 1963 on Winterwatch tonight. Bruce. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 19, 2013 Author Share Posted January 19, 2013 Nice shot of Whitrope in 1963 on Winterwatch tonight. Bruce. Thanks for the tip off, that's a must for I-Player, it was already on my watch list, but it's moved up to number one now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62440 Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Believe it or not, the same shot on More 4 for a second, but the BBC programme was better. I'm almost sure there was a real fleeting shot of Steele Road just before Whitrope Box on the BBC. B. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisM Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 One I have not come across before: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nationalmuseumsscotland/5204094478/in/faves-25166198@N07/ Although not showing much of the route, this fine view of sheep being unloaded in Hawick goods yard at the end of the 19th century has to be worth inclusion within the thread. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37175 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Nice shot of Whitrope in 1963 on Winterwatch tonight. Bruce. Had no idea this was on (it was during my nightshift, mind) .... no broadband connection & no iPlayer until a week on Tuesday means it's highly unlikely I'll get to see it, unfortunately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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