Calling all layout planners

[Rowsley17D]

Hi Joseph, The house was built in the 1950s and is very solid. I have not had the insulation up yet to have a look at the joists, but if there're like the rest of the place then they will take flooring and the baseboards. I am not going to use for storing other stuff, so there will be only railway things up there.

[Rowsley17D]

I vote shed in the garden. With insulation it will be no more than converting the loft, more comfortable, easier access, easier to work in, easier to show visitors, etc. Also you can make it what size and shape you like. You can build a 15 m2 shed with an apex of 2.7 m usually without planning permission or building regs.

 

Jon, I must admit that is the way I am thinking now. But for the chimney the loft is a big space, clean and dry, just seems a waste.

[The Stationmaster]

Morning Mike, Talking to a planner friend the loft would become storage space and not a habitable room which as you say would involve fire doors and proper stairs. The loft access is near the gap in the bottom of the plan.

 

End to end running would be a problem as unless you stood in the gap you would not be able to see both ends. I have in mind a roundy-roundy with two levels, so that there could be a fiddle yard under a scenic section. The station and small goods yard will be on the 24' side then the tracks leaving either end would fall away as they went round the two 12' sides. They would swing back in a large reverse curve under the station board to the storage loops.

 

Ah, looks like several of us are thinking out of the same hymn sheet and all that sort of thing - exactly the same sort of basic arrangement that was coming together in my mind plus you could adda loco shed at one end which rises as the mainlines fall possibly? At my age I would begin to worry about the gymnastics involved in access - not so bad for the young and fit but you still need to get material etc up there and yourself out in an emergency (or even a non-emergency, my dad was in the AFS during the war and a Retained Fireman for years after that - never a scratch despite a few tight spots, in various blitzes and after the war but stepping off the ladder down from our attic he broke his heel bone and was on crutches for 6 months. Mind you in his early 70s he was preparing a shed for moving to house my layout, slipped off the ladder and broke his heel again, same heel - different place - so maybe sheds aren't any safer?).

 

Anyway after that digression back to business and the question of single handed etc operation. You can obviously arrange the station/goods yard for OMO (one man operation) but the presence of that wall creates a good opportunity to arrange it for two if you want - but planned in such a way that you might perhaps concentrate on working one end, or the other, in effect giving you two different layouts for the price of one as you could arrange the station for different things (goods yard, loco depot, possibly even a branch bay) at either end. More a sort of hazy idea in my mind at this stage rather than firm plan detail but it might be worth considering and seeing if it is feasible - the same trains run through but the local work varies according to whichever end you are operating.

[28XX]

Consider a diamond drilling contractor to cut a 5" round hole through the wall. Safer and tidyer than knocking through.

[Happy Hippo]

The only problem with putting the stuff in a shed is security.

 

As I live in a small village, the usual crimes are breaking into garden sheds!

 

Since most crimes such as this are opportunistic, I reckoned that the chances of the naughty person peeling back the side planking was pretty slim, but even so, they'd also have to get through the insulation and the ply inner liner.

 

The door was reinforced with some extra planking on the inside and the hinges and hasp were put on with bolts with lock nots on the inside of the door and frame. I also installed a set of rods which prevent the door being removed from the hinges when the door was shut.

 

One small window was boarded up when I reclad the front of the shed, and the other windows had the glass replaced with macralon type plastic (as used in the manufacture of riot shields).

 

The opening window recieved similar treatment to the door as regards security hardware.

 

The door is illuminated at night when anyone approaches by a pir sensor operated light fitted to the house.

 

If you do go down the shed route, it is worth having a word with the manufacturer about putting in smaller, high level windows, rather than the huge picture windows people feel sheds should have.

 

If I were doing it again I'd rather spend the extra, and go for a log cabin type structure, although again, I'd insist on less glazing!

 

finally if you are putting in a shed, we always put our in on a reinforced concrete pad.

 

We take the wooden floor of the shed and use it as a pattern for the shuttering.

 

This means that when the shed is erected the shed fits over the pad with a minimal but useful overlap. This prevents the floor bearers from succumbing to rot through standing water.

 

Regards

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

Regards

 

Richard

[MichaelW]

Consider a diamond drilling contractor to cut a 5" round hole through the wall. Safer and tidyer than knocking through.

 

Having thought about it a bit - I'd be very cautious about drilling or knocking through the wall. I would imagine that the flue from the fire will do a 'wiggle' somewhere in that wall, and you really don't want to do anything that could disturb the integrity of the flue.

 

From what Mike has been saying, I think you could come up with quite a nice plan up there, possibly with a branch wending it's way around the central wall. I'll see if I can come up with a doodle...

 

Edit:

 

 

Splitting the storage loops either side of the central squeeze will keep the width down there, and you could do a steep descent into, and a much shallower climb out - you could even run a second time round the ends to get a bigger drop.

 

I would envision the branch being hidden in a box through the squeeze to protect it from passing operators...

[Joseph_Pestell]

Having thought about it a bit - I'd be very cautious about drilling or knocking through the wall. I would imagine that the flue from the fire will do a 'wiggle' somewhere in that wall, and you really don't want to do anything that could disturb the integrity of the flue.

 

 

 

 

That's why I asked Jonathan about any possible secondary flues from an outhouse and more detail about where the chimney exits the roof. It would seem that his flues are safely in the middle of the wall so it should be possible to drill through close to the other long wall if that helps the track layout. It would be much easier to have the main line dropping down round the outside of the space rather than looping back on itself in each room.

 

That probably implies 2 5" holes. If it's brick, it's quite possible to do DIY with the necessary drill hired from a toolhire company for half a day. Advantage of using a conntractor is their insurance!

[Rowsley17D]

Again, many thanks for the interest and the suggestions. As to the chimney- it has a modern liner and the flue is near to the gap in the wall. Although it had four flues at one time, only this one is now used. All the fireplaces are centrally placed in the house, hence the chimney in the middle of the roof. I did a bit of doodling at teabreak time and came up with a plan something similar to Michael. Not so sure about the branch though, I doubt the radius would be too tight. The shed suggestions from Richard are welcome. We live in a very low crime area but sheds are a favourite target. There are a couple of shed builders around here who make bespoke versions using standard panels and are used to making sheds that are used for offices and extra accommodation so come insulated and secure.

 

I have bought three packs of loft boarding from B&Q this lunchtime (3 for the price of 2 - no connection etc.) so that I don't put my foot through the ceilings when I go up tonight for a closer look.

[MichaelW]

I think I agree with you about the branch, I must have still been thinking narrow gauge when I came up with those curves...

[Rowsley17D]

On my way home (am still living at old house in Leyburn at the moment) I called in at the new house and put the boards in the loft. I couldn't get in as the step ladders were not tall enough, so I will have to take my ladders to the new house. However, using a new work lamp I have bought with the boards, I could see that the offending wall does not go all the way up to the roof. As I suspected in an earlier post the brickies must have built the chimney and pier as one unit instead of two separate ones. So with a hammer and bolster chisel I may be able to cut a gap in the wall so the layout can go down the other long side. Rest assured I will take professional advice before attacking the wall. So the "final" plan as on page three might get built after all and Mike's work not go to waste.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Jonathan, Do you operate rtr locos or kitbuilt? I am thinking about minimum curve radii on the hidden sections although we also need to consider your ten-coach trains. Also, how many trains do you think that you will want to store in hidden sidings?

[Rowsley17D]

Actually managed to get right into the loft this weekend with my builder mate and my observations from post 100 were correct. The wall between the chimney and the roof support pier is just infill and doesn't do anything structurally, some of the top bricks are not cemented in properly and were easily removed, so should not be a big job to create a gap 2' wide to allow baseboards to go through. The chimney takes up much more of the width of the loft than indicated on earlier plans so the baseboard will only be 2' wide as it goes passed either side which will mean crawl-under sections to get from one side to the other, so trains will literally disappear. The station will be pushed into one corner and the goods yard into the other. The sorting sidings may have to go although they too may go more into the corner. Looks as though I will have to play with AnyRail again.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Try to make the communication between the two halves walk through rather than crawl under, even if this means a narrow track width only board through the existing gap between the halves to allow enough width for the walkway. Long term a crawl under is going to become very tiresome.

 

This may be what you mean by 'pushing the station into one corner, and the goods yard into the other': the way I would be thinking is distributing the station around one 180 degree curve in one half, the goods yard ditto in the other half, with the line between running through the newly made gap in the wall. The circuit completed by a non scenic narrow shelf for the track, to leave the existing gap wide enough for the walk through.

[Rowsley17D]

Try to make the communication between the two halves walk through rather than crawl under, even if this means a narrow track width only board through the existing gap between the halves to allow enough width for the walkway. Long term a crawl under is going to become very tiresome.

 

This may be what you mean by 'pushing the station into one corner, and the goods yard into the other': the way I would be thinking is distributing the station around one 180 degree curve in one half, the goods yard ditto in the other half, with the line between running through the newly made gap in the wall. The circuit completed by a non scenic narrow shelf for the track, to leave the existing gap wide enough for the walk through.

 

Yes, I think we are thinking long the same lines (every pun intended). The station and goods yard will be on the 25+' side where I am going to break through the wall, one part either side of the chimney and running into the corners, with a narrow board between the two and a narrow walk way through. The sorting yard and MPD will be on the other long side with a crawl under, which would have to here in any case as the loft access is here and since I will have to crawl under anyway there's nothing lost. There may have to be two fiddle yards one for each line, plus the branch.

[Rowsley17D]

Here is a revised plan of the loft at nominal layout height of 36" with, where I think I want the main elements.

 

 

The station and goods yard will go into the curves at either end as will the fiddle yards underneath.

[Rowsley17D]

A nationwide well-known DIY chain has packs of loft boarding on a three for the price of two offer, so I am now busy buying up over 30 packs of the stuff. The area I want to floor is over 360 sq ft. This covers the central operating area, the layout area and a 3 ft run each long side under the eves for storage. Also measured up for a loft ladder so the plastic is going to take a hammering this month. Still, it's only money which is no good until it's spent.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Try to make the communication between the two halves walk through rather than crawl under, even if this means a narrow track width only board through the existing gap between the halves to allow enough width for the walkway. Long term a crawl under is going to become very tiresome.

 

This may be what you mean by 'pushing the station into one corner, and the goods yard into the other': the way I would be thinking is distributing the station around one 180 degree curve in one half, the goods yard ditto in the other half, with the line between running through the newly made gap in the wall. The circuit completed by a non scenic narrow shelf for the track, to leave the existing gap wide enough for the walk through.

 

I agree. I think that you will soon tire of a layout that you can only see half of at any one time and have to constantly duck under to get to the other half. To make it work properly, you will need two operators all the time.

 

I also think that you should seriously consider moving the loft hatch (not a difficult job but do it properly so as not to weaken the floor) for better exit and entrance. Indeed, I'm not sure that a loft ladder is going to work at all below a 36" high baseboard.

 

Have you measured the floor joists yet? On a 50s house, I would only expect 4" and that is not enough. Not saying that it will collapse under your weight and/or that of the layout. But it will probably flex enough to crack the ceilings especially if you have visitors to the layout. If you need to put in new joists, the garden shed option (or room above garage) may be a better option.

[The Stationmaster]

Going on from JP's post above a couple of good points in there - joist depth can be critical but hopefully your builder friend advised you on that? and moving the access night also make sense if practicable.

 

For the 'two room' layout you're faced with I think yo van keep the interest there (and even increase it) if you regard it and plan it as virtually two separate layouts with both of them capable of working through and supplying trains for the other. Apart from running line planning this means very careful attention to the way you plan your 'hidden sidings and that would, I think, be critical to get the best out of the whole.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Going on from JP's post above a couple of good points in there - joist depth can be critical but hopefully your builder friend advised you on that? and moving the access night also make sense if practicable.

 

For the 'two room' layout you're faced with I think yo van keep the interest there (and even increase it) if you regard it and plan it as virtually two separate layouts with both of them capable of working through and supplying trains for the other. Apart from running line planning this means very careful attention to the way you plan your 'hidden sidings and that would, I think, be critical to get the best out of the whole.

 

The "two layout" approach is an interesting idea. It would work really well if we were talking about a network of branchlines but I think it will be difficult to manage for 10-coach trains and a large MPD.

[Rowsley17D]

This gives an idea of what the station would look like if the original idea is kept

 

[The Stationmaster]

Still might be a possible for a 'two layout idea although in this case it would be a 'North 'box' and 'South 'box' scenario - need a bit of layout planning thought and some careful thinking about controls etc but still a proposition I reckon.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I see that I had not understood the previous drawing of the loft. What you have there will work fine. My only suggestion would be to bring in a bit of a curve to the station.

[Rowsley17D]

I see that I had not understood the previous drawing of the loft. What you have there will work fine. My only suggestion would be to bring in a bit of a curve to the station.

 

Hi Joseph,Yes I want it on a gentle curve too but I used P4 track in AnyRail to see what room long turnouts need and they don't have curved points. Still, if I can get it all in using plain turnouts then there should be plenty of room if curved ones are used. Once I can get my head around Templot I will have more of an idea.

[roger440]

I vote shed in the garden. With insulation it will be no more than converting the loft, more comfortable, easier access, easier to work in, easier to show visitors, etc. Also you can make it what size and shape you like. You can build a 15 m2 shed with an apex of 2.7 m usually without planning permission or building regs.

I vote shed in the garden. With insulation it will be no more than converting the loft, more comfortable, easier access, easier to work in, easier to show visitors, etc. Also you can make it what size and shape you like. You can build a 15 m2 shed with an apex of 2.7 m usually without planning permission or building regs.

 

Unless extra restrictions apply, you can go to 30sqm without building regs, and depending where you plonk it, no planning either. Im with the shed idea!

[Rowsley17D]

Sorry Roger, I going with the loft. The garden is too small to have a sizable shed and the loft is clean and dry, can easily be made warm and has power. The boards are bought. I have laid some around the hatch so that access is greatly improved and the ladder can be fixed. I am going to lay enough boards so that a builder can install two Velux roof lights without putting his foot through the ceilings. The joists seem an odd size roughly 5"x3" and spacing varies between 18"-20"