Hawksworths on the LMR?

[Pennine MC]

... I also recall a pic in an Ian Allan special edition mag (Diesel LocoSpecial, I think it was called) of a 40 heading a rake somewhere in the NW with a Hawksworth at the head.

 

Only a year and a half later, I've found it

 

Pic is a Colin Gifford shot, undated, unidentified (named) loco in GSY and I think the quoted destination is wrong - but the first coach is clearly a Hawksworth brake end, it's probably a third as it has no yellow stripe and generally looks like the one I picked up from Modelzone. The rest of the ten-coach train is Staniers. It's taken at Eccles Junction and is said to be 'taking the one-time Liverpool & Manchester line with a train to Liverpool'. This last bit I doubt, as the loco has a chalked headcode of 1D31 which suggests Holyhead/North Wales rather than Liverpool - perhaps someone with local knowledge could confirm that a N Wales train could still be following the L&M at this point? If it helps, there are two tracks branching left at the box and four to the right of it, the train is on the furthest right and there's a big church in the background, also a building with what looks like a half-timbered upper storey near a road overbridge.

[Coach bogie]

Just to add something a little different to the discussion though I doubt if this is the Hawksworths you mean. There is another Hawksworth coach to be seen on the LMR.

 

To a Hawksworth design, in 1952/3, 9 compartment non corridor stock was specifically built at Swindon for the LMR numbered in the M16797W -M16876W in two batches. They certainly turn up in photographs in Manchester during the 1960's.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[chrisf]

Apologies for nit-picking but I think you will find that those suburbans were a pre-war Collett design [diagram E156].

 

Chris

[Coach bogie]

My notes show lot 1479/1772 to be a continuation of diagram E166 drawn up post war but not activated until 1952 due to the programme of building mainline stock and refurbishment programme.

 

It is clearly another of the drawing office designs using 'tracing paper' as there are minimal underfame diferences between the E156/166 diagrams.

 

The last E166 and first lot 1479 were built along side each other in 1953. As Hawksworth had gone in 1949 it is difficult to attribute to a particlar CME but then most of his mainline stock was built after his departure.

 

Either way they all come from that immediate post nationalisation period and the fact they were specifically built for the LMR, I found of particular interest to the thread.

 

Regards

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Coach bogie]

I conceed that the LMR build appears to revert to E156. The E166 was built on standard Hawksworth 63' underframe so the 59' underframe does indicate following the E156 build from 1940. It is fascinating why Swindon had to revert to an older design, that clearly required extra expense in setup as the assembly lines were geared to 63' at the time. One theory is that the LMR put a 60' max length based on standard LMS Stanier coach lengths but then they had to accept 64' mark 1's already appearing. Its an odd one that no-one will probably never get to the bottom of.

 

Again I thought it of interest to the thread.

 

Thanks for the correction Chris

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Arthur]

Only a year and a half later, I've found it

 

It's taken at Eccles Junction and is said to be 'taking the one-time Liverpool & Manchester line with a train to Liverpool'. This last bit I doubt, as the loco has a chalked headcode of 1D31 which suggests Holyhead/North Wales rather than Liverpool - perhaps someone with local knowledge could confirm that a N Wales train could still be following the L&M at this point? If it helps, there are two tracks branching left at the box and four to the right of it, the train is on the furthest right and there's a big church in the background, also a building with what looks like a half-timbered upper storey near a road overbridge.

Yes, that would be correct, the junction is just west of Eccles station, on the L & M line from Manchester Exchange (originally Liverpool Street) west through Salford, Eccles, Patricroft, over Chat Moss to points west, Liverpool and North Wales trains would be still be together at this point. The big chuch is St. Andrews and the half timbered building Eccles Conserative Club. At the junction the Monton loop heads north westwards to Monton, Worsley, Tyldesley and on to Wigan. In the fork of that junction was Patricroft loco sheds.

 

 

A pedestrian footbridge, known locally as the four bridges, spanned the junction and was a regular spotting point for local urchins such as myself.

 

Arthur.

[Pennine MC]

. The big chuch is St. Andrews and the half timbered building Eccles Conserative Club.

 

Wow, didnt expect that much detail Thanks Arthur, that confirms my thoughts that it's a N Wales service.

[coachmann]

Coincidentally, I was watching a Stirling Video production "Mainline Steam Routes Volume 2" this morning at breakfast and one of the trains was filmed from Conway Castle battlements, and said by the narrator to be a Black Five hauling a train of ex. GWR stock in the early 1960s. I couldn't identify anything as the footage was too dark, but a complete train of Western Region stock (not Mk.I's) heading for Bangor or Holyhead is intriguing.

[Merfyn Jones]

Coincidentally, I was watching a Stirling Video production "Mainline Steam Routes Volume 2" this morning at breakfast and one of the trains was filmed from Conway Castle battlements, and said by the narrator to be a Black Five hauling a train of ex. GWR stock in the early 1960s. I couldn't identify anything as the footage was too dark, but a complete train of Western Region stock (not Mk.I's) heading for Bangor or Holyhead is intriguing.

 

Or maybe Pwllheli/Porthmadog ?

Merf.

[coachmann]

True....

[Arthur]

Wow, didnt expect that much detail Thanks Arthur, that confirms my thoughts that it's a N Wales service.

You're very welcome Ian, I was going to name the driver and secondman but decided that was just showing off

 

 

 

[Pennine MC]

Further to this, I'm just watching the 'Glory Days of British Steam' DVD, L&Y disc, and found a passage said to be 'around 1964' of a Jube bringing a special into Leeds City from the Manchester direction. The first coach is a Stanier and it's followed unmistakeably by two Hawksworths, which look like a brake second and a compo. So it's looking possible that ex-Cambrian vehicles ended up in LM NW area stock

 

Another old thread dragged up, but one of my Christmas pressies has brought new info. Bellcode Publications' very recent 'Steam Age Diesels around Yorkshire' (an absolutely excellent book for folk with this sort of leaning, it's almost a Yorkshire equivalent of George O'Hara's Scottish tome) has a shot of a Peak-hauled Sheffield - Leeds train in Aug '66, formation two Hawksworths (probably a comp and an all second) and two Staniers. Still not definitive evidence of transfers and re-prefixings, but getting closer... B)