Hawksworths on the LMR?

[Pennine MC]

Wanted to pose this query awhile but you'll understand there came a point where I couldnt really, not without setting too many hares running

 

A lot of pre-BR designs of coach got moved around in the 60s (e.g Staniers to the WR, Thompsons to the LM and famously, Bulleids to the ER and ScR) and I've half an idea that I've read this happened to some Hawksworths. I also recall a pic in an Ian Allan special edition mag (Diesel LocoSpecial, I think it was called) of a 40 heading a rake somewhere in the NW with a Hawksworth at the head. Now I know they would have wandered on cross country trains but does anybody know anything about any actually being allocated to the LM (or elsewhere, for that matter)?

 

As ever, thanks in advance for any response. If this deviates into a general discussion about transferred pre-BR designs I wont mind at all, except that:

 

a) we have done the aforementioned Bulleids to death;

 

b ) I'm more interested in ordinary day coaches than buffets and sleepers etc, and

 

c) I do know that I can use the BG in a parcels train, particularly as I've it read dozens of times today

[Baby Deltic]

Wanted to pose this query awhile but you'll understand there came a point where I couldnt really, not without setting too many hares running

 

A lot of pre-BR designs of coach got moved around in the 60s (e.g Staniers to the WR, Thompsons to the LM and famously, Bulleids to the ER and ScR) and I've half an idea that I've read this happened to some Hawksworths. I also recall a pic in an Ian Allan special edition mag (Diesel LocoSpecial, I think it was called) of a 40 heading a rake somewhere in the NW with a Hawksworth at the head. Now I know they would have wandered on cross country trains but does anybody know anything about any actually being allocated to the LM (or elsewhere, for that matter)?

 

As ever, thanks in advance for any response. If this deviates into a general discussion about transferred pre-BR designs I wont mind at all, except that:

 

a) we have done the aforementioned Bulleids to death;

 

b ) I'm more interested in ordinary day coaches than buffets and sleepers etc, and

 

c) I've read dozens of times today that I can use the BG in a parcels train

 

I think the BG's moved around a fair bit 'post GWR', Ian. I'm pretty certain I've seen a piccy of a BG at KX in a train consist. Not sure about the LMR though. I fancy a few of those BG's and some artist's licence to run them if necessary, myself.

[Russ (mines a pint)]

I'm interested in this too, but have nothing to offer the OP it would be like teaching your granny to suck eggs! - Happy Christmas Ian.

 

The things that stand out are the routes which cross over regional and national boundaries, and particularly 'inertia' and previous allegiances,

For instance a train coming up the Midland Route to Carlisle, then taking the NBR/LNER route to Edinburgh?

Engines may be chnged at various points, I remember a trip through Italy & France (pre TGV!) The locos are fixed to a 'shed' but the stock gets spread about relativley randomly?

[flyingsignalman]

Until it was withdrawn, the Birkenhead to Bournemouth through train used two sets of stock, one Western and one Southern Region; they made the trip in one direction each day (except Sunday) so that on Monday, Wednesday and Friday (say) the WR stock departed Birkenhead and the SR stock departed Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.

 

Most coaching stock worked to diagrams as well as locomotives. In late 1976, when travelling to the Signalling School in Manchester I used to catch the 08:10 Liverpool to Newcastle train. It always had 11 coaches on but on Fridays an extra coach was added behind the loco. I'm pretty sure that the 11 coach set and the extra Friday coach were always the same ones.

 

I (and my fellow trainees) always travelled in the coach behind the loco as the arrival time at Manchester Victoria was at about 08:54 so only gave us 6 minutes to get from platform 12 over to the signalling school which was in the offices near the old platform 1. I didn't keep notes but by the end of the six weeks it dawned on me that I was beginning to recognise the coach numbers

[Pennine MC]

Here's a cracking shot from the inestimable Mr Ford, albeit still only in cross country usage and not likely to be an actual reallocation. ? Fantastic mix though - the two Hawksworths, a Stanier, two maroon Mk1s (one a late one with ally window frames), then two blue/grey ones before the train becomes indistinct? 

[Miss Prism]

Yes, it is a cracking shot, but many (G)WR southwest to north trains (and vice versa) usually did contain a mixture of vehicles from different companies, although probably not in quite such variety as in that Paignton to Newcastle example. Like flyingsignalman's example, these trains were generally fixed rakes, used for a specific service, being added to or subtracted from according to season, and their make up would change a bit according to the location where the set was being added to or subtracted from. None of this implies any of the coaches were 'allocated' to a foreign region of course, and I would imagine that significant repairs or maintenance would be undertaken at the company or region origin.

[Guest Phil]

Here's a cracking shot from the inestimable Mr Ford, albeit still only in cross country usage and not likely to be an actual reallocation. Fantastic mix though - the two Hawksworths, a Stanier, two maroon Mk1s (one a late one with ally window frames), then two blue/grey ones before the train becomes indistinct

 

Absolute cracker there !!!!

 

Thanks to Dave for sharing it, and to Ian for posting the link.

 

I have nothing to offer apart from expect Mr Carroll to pop along shortly !!!

[Andy C]

There are quite a few shots showing the Hawksworth BGs on the Red Bank newspapers coming over the Calder valley in the early - mid 60s. Enough excuse therefore to stick one in the New Hey parcels stock anyway. I haven't yet noticed any photos of Hawksworth coaches in this area but it is hoghly likely they were put on Holiday trains to/from the South West - Richard Greenwoods LM steam on the ex L and Y has a shot of a Fowler 2-6-4 on an ECS holiday working off the OAGB heading towards Rochdale - the first vehicles are clearly GW Collet designs which makes the probability of Hawksworths beeing seen in the further reaches of the LMR greater.

[Pennine MC]

Yes, it is a cracking shot, but many (G)WR southwest to north trains (and vice versa) usually did contain a mixture of vehicles from different companies, although probably not in quite such variety as in that Paignton to Newcastle example. Like flyingsignalman's example, these trains were generally fixed rakes, used for a specific service, being added to or subtracted from according to season, and their make up would change a bit according to the location where the set was being added to or subtracted from.

 

I think Miss P would be well advised to heed MaP's comment re- aged female relatives

 

My point was that it's a bizarre mix *for that time* (1967, when Mk1s were virtually pre-eminent and pre-BR designs of any sort were very much on the back foot), as a way of highlighting the overlooked potential of the period.

 

FWIW I'd expect it to be a summer only service (and then probably only a weekend one - the wrong line running could mean it was a Sunday), utilising a rake chucked together for the season

[AberdeenBill]

There are quite a few shots showing the Hawksworth BGs on the Red Bank newspapers coming over the Calder valley in the early - mid 60s. Enough excuse therefore to stick one in the New Hey parcels stock anyway. I haven't yet noticed any photos of Hawksworth coaches in this area but it is hoghly likely they were put on Holiday trains to/from the South West - Richard Greenwoods LM steam on the ex L and Y has a shot of a Fowler 2-6-4 on an ECS holiday working off the OAGB heading towards Rochdale - the first vehicles are clearly GW Collet designs which makes the probability of Hawksworths beeing seen in the further reaches of the LMR greater.

 

 

Fascinating stuff... Some random web browsing has found these...

 

Eastleigh in 1962, with what seems to be a Hawksworth leading a Stanier set (correct me gently if I'm wrong LOL).

http://www.steamweb.net/gallerywc/large-114.html

 

And (news to me...), Hawksworth CKs in multiple-unit green used as DMU trailers, lasting as late as 1967:

http://www.railcar.co.uk/features/hawksworth.htm

 

Sorry to be so ignorant, but is there a convenient web resource that lists diagram numbers and running numbers for Hawksworth coaches?

 

Thanks,

Bill

[Pannier Tank]

Deviating a little from the OP LMR Allocations, I remeber seeing my first Hawksworth Coaches at Bletchley Station (LMR- WCML) in the early sixties. They were returning to the WR (Ex Works, Wolverton) on the 14:00 Bletchley to Oxford Parcels hauled by a 1E Black Five / BR Standard Five and on the odd occasion by a an 8F.

 

 

They were often worked up from Wolverton with a Duchess on the Crewe to Willesden Parcels, so plenty of scope.

[Poor Old Bruce]

I can remember getting on a Nottingham train at Marylebone one day in the 1960s and realised it was a WR coach when the door latch didn't close when the door was slammed shut. You had to open the window, lean out and latch the door manually. Who says there's the Great Western way and the wrong way

 

Richard

[LSWR]

Inter-regional trains would be your best bet for justifying Hawksworth carriages on the LMR. From the last incarnation of RMweb here is a picture I took of the Newcatle - Bournemouth train in the mid 1960s entering Winchester behind a 9F from Tyseley, a shed that was under LMR management at the time. The first carriage is a Hawksworth design.

[Pennine MC]

Inter-regional trains would be your best bet for justifying Hawksworth carriages on the LMR.

 

Yeah, I appreciate that, which is why I said as much in my OP The location I'm proposing to model doesnt have WR-originating passenger traffic, which is why I'm after evidence of any reallocations...

 

Nice pic though B)

[Poor Old Bruce]

They could just stray onto your bit of railway.

 

Richard

[30851]

Well it is possible that Hawksworths ended up on the LMR - perhaps not in the way you are looking for but... I have found pictures of them in local Cambrian line trains in 1966 (in one case the train consists of Hawksworth, Stanier, Hawksworth) long after the LMR took over these lines in 1963. So I would assume that some got transferred over to the LMR when they took over, just as some SR stock went to the WR in 1963.

 

 

Rob

[Pennine MC]

Well it is possible that Hawksworths ended up on the LMR - perhaps not in the way you are looking for but... I have found pictures of them in local Cambrian line trains in 1966 (in one case the train consists of Hawksworth, Stanier, Hawksworth) long after the LMR took over these lines in 1963. So I would assume that some got transferred over to the LMR when they took over, just as some SR stock went to the WR in 1963.

 

 

Thanks Rob, that's the closest yet to what I had in mind and I must admit I'd not given the Cambrian a thought. The next step of course is: were they withdrawn when the DMUs took over, or did some wander elsewhere

[30851]

I cannot give a definite answer to that one but if I were to guess I would say no. When you consider what they did with the services through Birmingham in March 1967 there must have been a lot of spare MK1s around. On the ex-WR lines they replaced nearly everything north of Birmingham with DMU's - if the services still ran of course. And on the ex-LMS they replaced the MK1's with the newly introduced MK2's on the introduction of the Electric services. So somehow I doubt if any Hawksworth on the LMR made it past March 67 - assuming they made it that far.

 

 

Rob

[Pennine MC]

I cannot give a definite answer to that one but if I were to guess I would say no. When you consider what they did with the services through Birmingham in March 1967 there must have been a lot of spare MK1s around. ...And on the ex-LMS they replaced the MK1's with the newly introduced MK2's on the introduction of the Electric services. So somehow I doubt if any Hawksworth on the LMR made it past March 67 - assuming they made it that far.

 

 

Cheers Rob - '67 would do, with appropriate evidence. I follow your reasoning, I was going to say the Staniers lasted longer, but then the late survivors had I believe been fitted with ETH (and thus must have run alongside Mk2s, although probably not in the same trains)

 

Meanwhile the ever-fascinating Barking Bill has turned up an interesting shot - the train could be misidentified of course, and/or have come from west of Derby (with an early start...)

[Karhedron]

I have seen pics of stock going the other way with both Stove Rs and Stannier BGs on WR milk trains in the early 60s.

[Pennine MC]

Well it is possible that Hawksworths ended up on the LMR - perhaps not in the way you are looking for but... I have found pictures of them in local Cambrian line trains in 1966 (in one case the train consists of Hawksworth, Stanier, Hawksworth) long after the LMR took over these lines in 1963. So I would assume that some got transferred over to the LMR when they took over, just as some SR stock went to the WR in 1963.

 

Further to this, I'm just watching the 'Glory Days of British Steam' DVD, L&Y disc, and found a passage said to be 'around 1964' of a Jube bringing a special into Leeds City from the Manchester direction. The first coach is a Stanier and it's followed unmistakeably by two Hawksworths, which look like a brake second and a compo. So it's looking possible that ex-Cambrian vehicles ended up in LM NW area stock

[Guest Phil]

Further to this, I'm just watching the 'Glory Days of British Steam' DVD, L&Y disc, and found a passage said to be 'around 1964' of a Jube bringing a special into Leeds City from the Manchester direction. The first coach is a Stanier and it's followed unmistakeably by two Hawksworths, which look like a brake second and a compo. So it's looking possible that ex-Cambrian vehicles ended up in LM NW area stock

 

The original post about Cambrian Hawksworths is a little convoluted I feel.

 

Sure the Cambrian came under LMR control in the 1960s, but it was still very Western in approach. I "took on" at Machynlleth in 1978 - a decade and a half after LM isation, but you'd struggle to identify it, apart from DMUs numbered M50397 etc.

 

To me it is therefore obvious that Hawksworths would still be in service on the LMR Cambrian route, because it was still "WR".

 

Having said that, with DMUs taking over the Cambrian in 1965, the LMR would have a surplus of stock on their hands and it is eminently possible some redundant Hawksworths drifted northeast from Salop.

 

The cherry would be to find a Hawksworth numbered MxxxxW !!!

[DavidBelcher]

 

And (news to me...), Hawksworth CKs in multiple-unit green used as DMU trailers, lasting as late as 1967:

http://www.railcar.co.uk/features/hawksworth.htm

 

 

Knew about that instance; they were used as 'strengtheners' with those ex-GW railcars (the more angular design as per the old Lima model) that ran as twin units but lasted beyond the withdrawal of the railcars themselves - they are listed towards the back of some Combined Volumes of the era.

 

David

[DavidBelcher]

Having said that, with DMUs taking over the Cambrian in 1965, the LMR would have a surplus of stock on their hands and it is eminently possible some redundant Hawksworths drifted northeast from Salop.

 

In between the Cambrian passing to the LMR in '63 and closure of the Wellington-Stafford line to passengers a year later, I suppose there is an outside chance that ex-GW stock working out of Shrewsbury could have strayed on to the latter route.

 

David

[giz]

Knew about that instance; they were used as 'strengtheners' with those ex-GW railcars (the more angular design as per the old Lima model) that ran as twin units but lasted beyond the withdrawal of the railcars themselves - they are listed towards the back of some Combined Volumes of the era.

 

David

 

The coaches used with the GW railcars were older Collet designs.

 

The Hawkesworths were fitted with standard blue square cables for use with mainly class 117 and 119 dmus.