ROCO Electrics?

[Multiple identity account 2]

I saw many videos of Roco Electric engine with the pantographs that go up automatically. Trouble is all videos feature only 1 loco. May I know if all Roco model have this feature? I'd like to buy a few Roco models so I wanted to know. Thank you in advance. I tried contacting Roco but never got a reply. It's been 29 days now.

[Mike at C&M]

As far as I am aware, only the German Class 110 electric has been released thus far. I will need to check some of the new releases literature as to whether any more are due to follow in the near future.

 

However, by choosing such a prototype which was part of a larger family of German electrics, adapting the technology to other classes should be relatively easy.

[Nigelcliffe]

It only needs a modest amount of space to implement the mechanism.

The mechanism is either a small servo (eg. Tokyo SmartServo RC1) or possibly memory wire. For the servo, add a suitable DCC decoder, such all except the very smallest of the Zimo range.

 

- Nigel

[Multiple identity account 2]

 

 

 In fact, I doubt you'd be able to obtain such model from India anyway...

{edit: here's the parts list of the loco: link}

But the rest of my family stay in USA, UK and Holland. So getting one is not impossible. By saying getting one in India makes you sound just rude and inconsiderate. You can either try and be helpful or just don't say something. I may not be Indian but the country I stay in isn't so cheap so as not to stock these things. India has a large amount of hobby centres that do indeed sell Hornby, Marklin, Mehano products and also order if a customer needs a special one.

[Multiple identity account 2]

It only needs a modest amount of space to implement the mechanism.

The mechanism is either a small servo (eg. Tokyo SmartServo RC1) or possibly memory wire. For the servo, add a suitable DCC decoder, such all except the very smallest of the Zimo range.

 

- Nigel

 

Would this be possible to implement on a British Electric? As you know Hornby Electrics have a motor on only one bogie, so there is enough space there. My only worry is - will it work on single arm pantographs?

[Multiple identity account 2]

Fair point (and I wasn't aware of that) but it'll still has an MSRP of 400+ Euro's... Box-shifters will discount it a bit, but not too much...

 

Yes, theoretically it can be done on any model and any type of pan. But it requires some serious precision modelling and the chances of success are directly related to your skills in micro-engineering... If your goal is to install such system in a Hornby electric, by all means order the spare parts from Roco. Mind that Roco spares are more expensive then a new loco...

 

Nigel stated that a servo would be good enough. So whats your take on that? Are servos expensive? It's not like I have a huge fleet of electrics I just want to detail one. Heaven knows when Hornby are going to re-tool their Class 90 - PHDesigns already have a kit. So that part is taken care of... Do you know any dealer who specialized in micro engineering?? Or a website on using things like servos with 00 scale trains.

[Nigelcliffe]

Would this (small servo) be possible to implement on a British Electric? As you know Hornby Electrics have a motor on only one bogie, so there is enough space there. My only worry is - will it work on single arm pantographs?

 

I expect it can be made to work. If you want two pantographs to move independently, it needs two mechanisms (and two servos if that is the chosen option).

 

The Toko RC-1 servo isn't "dead cheap", the last one I bought was over £20. There are other servos which are a little larger, but I'd probably choose in preference if there was space for them - mixture of cost and also larger servos might not need continuous power to hold position (the RC-1 needs constant power or it reverts to "mid position).

Then, if choosing a servo you need a Zimo locomotive decoder; again not stupid money, but not the cheapest, plus a couple of electronics components (voltage regulator and an inductor if I remember correctly, its in the Zimo manual).

 

Memory wire might work, but you need to find the "right" sort of wire - wire which will relax to its original length without a huge spring. That which C&L were selling isn't the "right" sort.

 

A very small micro-motor with a massive ratio gear head might also work (say 1000:1). This gives a rotating output which moves at a slow speed. Connect a cam to this such that at "12 oclock" the pantograph is fully up, and at "6 oclock" it is fully down. Connect motor to function output on a decoder, turn on function to move pantograph, turn off function to stop moving the pantograph.

 

 

Its all quite possible in the space in a OO model. Question is how much faffing in making parts, finding them, connecting, etc. you want to get involved with.

 

 

- Nigel

[Multiple identity account 2]

I expect it can be made to work. If you want two pantographs to move independently, it needs two mechanisms (and two servos if that is the chosen option).

 

The Toko RC-1 servo isn't "dead cheap", the last one I bought was over £20. There are other servos which are a little larger, but I'd probably choose in preference if there was space for them - mixture of cost and also larger servos might not need continuous power to hold position (the RC-1 needs constant power or it reverts to "mid position).

Then, if choosing a servo you need a Zimo locomotive decoder; again not stupid money, but not the cheapest, plus a couple of electronics components (voltage regulator and an inductor if I remember correctly, its in the Zimo manual).

 

Memory wire might work, but you need to find the "right" sort of wire - wire which will relax to its original length without a huge spring. That which C&L were selling isn't the "right" sort.

 

A very small micro-motor with a massive ratio gear head might also work (say 1000:1). This gives a rotating output which moves at a slow speed. Connect a cam to this such that at "12 oclock" the pantograph is fully up, and at "6 oclock" it is fully down. Connect motor to function output on a decoder, turn on function to move pantograph, turn off function to stop moving the pantograph.

 

 

Its all quite possible in the space in a OO model. Question is how much faffing in making parts, finding them, connecting, etc. you want to get involved with.

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

Thank you Mr. Nigel. By any chance would you be able to know exactly what all is needed and where I can get them? Atleast to get a confirmation on the prices.

[ThaneofFife]

hasnt Andi of Dagworth fame sussed this out?

[Dagworth]

hasnt Andi of Dagworth fame sussed this out?

Yep

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqV7Q16DiSs

Although I am currently looking at a simpler way of doing it.

 

Andi

[Nigelcliffe]

Thank Mr. Nigel. By any chance would you be able to know exactly what all is needed and where I can get them? Atleast to get a confirmation on the prices.

 

Not easy to give a shopping list, because it's going to be a "depends a lot on exactly what you find when you start".

 

Toko Smart Servo RC-1. Hard to find, but expect £20-something. Or any other small servo of choice.

Zimo decoder of suitable size for the motor in the loco. Any current Zimo decoder except the tiny MX621 has servo capabilities. You'll be soldering wires onto the decoder, there are pads for this, but it is onto the decoder circuit board.

Voltage regulator and a few other passive components as described in Zimo decoder manual.

Bits of metal, plastic, rod, wire, bolts, pivots, etc.. to mount everything and connect to the pantograph.

 

 

 

Thanks for posting that Andi

 

As for servo's: provided they're small enough, it might fit inside a 00 scale loco. Never used them, so can't comment any further on that. However, it is important that the actuator is pushing the pan down, not up... As you can see in Andi's video, the pan will touch the wire. That wire will inevitably vary in height and the actuator should give the pan, and its attached mechanism, the freedom to follow this height difference.

 

Agreed, Andi's illustration is quite good at showing how it can be done. Pulling down, and using spring pressure to hold against the conductor wire is a good solution.

 

 

For micro motors, try the 6V versions Nigel Lawton offers: http://www.nigellawton009.com Furthermore you need mechanical switches that interrupt power to the motor in the end-positions (up and down), even if you choose to use the outputs of the decoder as momentary contacts (only powered while pushing the button). You also need 2 outputs for each motor (not servo!) including 2 suitable resistors. Wire the motor between the function outputs and the resistors between a function output each and the blue wire. You'll need to experiment with the resistor values, the range will be 120-680 Ohm, for 1 Watt.

 

I don't think the control is anything like as complex as you suggest. If the motor/mechanism is appropriately geared with appropriate travel, then its just one function output (move if powered, stop if not), plus the common positive wire (blue).

 

 

- Nigel

[Dagworth]

Ok, a brief description of how my system works.

 

There are two springs, one raises the pan, the other pulls the memory wire back to its extended position when switched off.

The pan has a lever that goes through the roof and engages with the lift spring.

There is a second lever attached to the memory wire that pulls the lift spring back away from the pan lever when the memory wire is switched off.

 

When the wire is off (extended) the lever pulls the lift spring away from the pan lever and the pan falls. If the loco is lifted from the track and held upside down then the pan will raise to its fullest extent, it only falls by gravity.

When the wire is switched on then the wire contracts, the lever pulls back off the lift spring, this allows the lift spring to come into play and pick up the lever coming through the roof to raise the pan.

Advantages are that the pan always comes down on loss of power (derailment etc.) but does not power down thus no risk of pulling down the wires.

The pan is free to raise or lower as desired according to the height of the OLE.

 

The lift spring is very weak, only strong enough to lift the pan, the weight of a pencil rested on the pan will compress it.

 

The new version under development will involve linear micro servos http://www.spektrumrc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=SPMAS2000 but this may lose the benefit of autodropping on loss of power.

 

Andi

[Nigelcliffe]

Nigel, it's a DC motor, so needs reverse polarity to drop or lift the pan (depending on the initial wiring ) And on the end of the movement you'd need to stop the motor, otherwise the motor can be damaged or destroyed, including the model itself (heat!).

 

No you don't....As I described earlier... The motor (geared down so output speed is sensible) can have a cam fitted to the end. The motor rotates (one direction only) when power is applied, and stops when power is removed. The cam is arranged so that the full movement of the pantograph is achieved in 180 degrees of rotation. Just stop the movement when pantograph is "fully up" (turn off function). Then, to lower, start movement again and wait until "fully down". If you're silly enough to leave it on continuously, then the pantograph goes up-down-up-down-up-down-up-down for ever, but unless the motor is chosen wrongly, nothing else will happen (its just the same as the crank-pin pushing the piston in-out on a steam loco!). The only problem is if you stop the pantograph at "half up", then you have to go via "full up", before it can come back to "down".

 

 

Andi - the Toko SmartServo might be an answer for "loss of power"; that servo will revert to mid position when power is lost.

 

 

- Nigel

[Multiple identity account 2]

Ok, a brief description of how my system works.

 

There are two springs, one raises the pan, the other pulls the memory wire back to its extended position when switched off.

The pan has a lever that goes through the roof and engages with the lift spring.

There is a second lever attached to the memory wire that pulls the lift spring back away from the pan lever when the memory wire is switched off.

 

When the wire is off (extended) the lever pulls the lift spring away from the pan lever and the pan falls. If the loco is lifted from the track and held upside down then the pan will raise to its fullest extent, it only falls by gravity.

When the wire is switched on then the wire contracts, the lever pulls back off the lift spring, this allows the lift spring to come into play and pick up the lever coming through the roof to raise the pan.

Advantages are that the pan always comes down on loss of power (derailment etc.) but does not power down thus no risk of pulling down the wires.

The pan is free to raise or lower as desired according to the height of the OLE.

 

The lift spring is very weak, only strong enough to lift the pan, the weight of a pencil rested on the pan will compress it.

 

The new version under development will involve linear micro servos http://www.spektrumr...rodID=SPMAS2000 but this may lose the benefit of autodropping on loss of power.

 

Andi

 

So there is a second method under development, as you stated. But the first method is easier and cheaper and more prototypical right?