Question for readers with knowledge of railways in Paris area

[shortliner]

I had a PM from a member on the MTI forum - that reads as follows

 

"Jack,

 

Whilst looking around Paris using Google Streetview I came across an idea for a small layout which could form the basis for an article. However, I don't have any trackplans or many other details and the only pictures I have are from Google Streetview. Perhaps you could have a look and see what you think?

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=48.823536,2.371974&spn=0.000028,0.019205&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=48.823582,2.367781&panoid=qh0Lnbvrg6M9SnOdS57Hrw&cbp=12,298.85,,0,3.1

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=48.823692,2.366996&spn=0.000028,0.019205&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=48.82375,2.366821&panoid=M61sqns_nTlLzxpkWpSsPQ&cbp=12,99.15,,0,5.13

 

More here: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_Paris-Gobelins

 

It’s Gare de Paris-Gobelins a former goods station, adjacent to Rue Nationale, south of Gare D’ Austerlitz. It occurred to me how suitable this might be for a small layout. It has a tunnel exit to run to fiddle sidings and it’s location surrounded by buildings is a little unusual. From what I can tell it was connected by a short branch to the mainline south of Gare de Bercy.

 

 

Regards

 

Stu "

 

Do any of our knowledgeable members have any more information? It certainly looks to have (international)possibilities and could be in almot any urban area throughout the world - assistance would be appreciated

Cheers

Jack

[Andy Hayter]

According to the Wiki link it was connected to the Petite Ceinture - which was a line running through the innersubburbs essentially connecting all of the Paris Termini.

[EddieB]

According to the Wiki link it was connected to the Petite Ceinture - which was a line running through the innersubburbs essentially connecting all of the Paris Termini.

 

...connecting all of the Paris Termini - except Montparnasse.

 

There may be some more detail on the Quail map of Paris (now out of print - I'm not sure where my copy is). Finding photos of the station when open may prove difficult - if it was at least partially underground.

 

These sites give a flavour of the Petite Ceinture:

 

http://www.petiteceinture.org/Histoire-de-la-Petite-Ceinture.html

http://www.petiteceinture.org/Plans-cartes-de-la-Petite-Ceinture.html

http://paris1900.lartnouveau.com/paris00/gares_de_la_petite_ceinture%20.htm

http://www.tramway.at/paris/ceinture.html

 

In 1972 I travelled in a through carriage from Boulogne to Rome, from Gare du Nord to Gare de Lyon around the part of the Petite Ceinture that was still open. As the line was never electrified, we were diesel hauled - if memory serves I think we were hauled by a A1A-A1A 62000 loco (I probably even have the number smewhere).

[JeffP]

Where SNCF a bit shortsighted to have closed it, do you think?

[Fat Controller]

Where SNCF a bit shortsighted to have closed it, do you think?

Possibly, though its raison d’être had largely disappeared with the loss of through carriages being taken from one terminus to another, through freight and passenger traffic being sent via the Grande Ceinture and other routes avoiding central Paris, and the demise of local freight traffic. In the 1950s, one of the Calais-Maritime- Gare du Nord trains conveyed coaches for Rome, which travelled around the Petite Ceinture from GdN to Gare de Lyon.

This thread may be of interest:-

http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18640&hilit=Gare+des+Gobelins

BTW, 'gobelins' has nothing to do with small creatures wearing pointy hats- it's named after the old Royal Carpet factory which stood nearby..

[Talltim]

Embranchement des Gobelins by Patrice TOULZE, on Flickr

 

A reverse view of this stretch can be see on http://www.emdx.org/...ce92/08mai.html about half way down

 

This view looks so much like a 60s view of the future http://www.emdx.org/rail/canard/France92/PHOTOS/pcGareDesGobelins.jpg

[L49]

Where SNCF a bit shortsighted to have closed it, do you think?

 

I'm not sure exactly when Gobelins closed to normal traffic, but I know that more recently this side of the Ceinture has been off limits to all traffic due to the deteriorating state of the tunnels. We walked the section from Parc de Montsouris to Montrouge a few years ago, and a lot of the formation was covered with remains of tunnel roof shoring which didn't exactly inspire confidence, especially after Dad managed to go straight down a drainage channel against the tunnel wall!

[Pacific231G]

I saw freight traffic being worked at Gobelins in the late 1980s when my girlfriend and I happened to be staying in a hotel nearby. At that time it still had a daily service mostly of food products. Unfortunately I didn't take any photos but I think the wagons were mostly fruit and veg and Gobelins seemed to be a main entrepot for food brought in by rail presumably for southern Paris. It closed to rail traffic in 1996 and had really been the last "customer" for the southern section of the Petite Ceinture. There was a short 200 metre long tunnel,  connecting it to the P.C.which also went into a tunnel at Ivry  but between there and the next main line connections to the PO lines from Austerlitz and the one the other side of the river towards Bercy on the PLM that was I think the only tunnel. When I travelled round the PC on a steam trip in 1989 Gobelins seemed to be where the mechanical signalling ran out and the line from there to Grenelle was technically closed though I think the connection with the RATP metro depot at Vaugirard may have still been in occasional use for metro stock brought in by rail.   

There are several photos of the yard on

http://www.petiteceinture.org/Desserte-marchandise-des-gares-des.html

 

Gobelins had been much larger when it was the main coal depot for the south of Paris but most of the site was redeveloped as the Olympiades residential complex from the mid 1970s and it looks that the open square between the rows of flats is above the remaining tracks.

 

By comparison this is the plan from its days as a coal depot

Note that the plan is South up.

 

If you look it up on Google Earth (48deg 49.432 minutes North 2deg 22.025 minutes East) there's also an aerial image from 1949 when the yard was still at its full extent. At that time the yard had a double track entrance through the tunnel

[141 C 78]

Sorry to contradict EddieB, but the Petite Ceinture was connected to Paris-Montparnasse.

 

If you go to the website of the Association Sauvegarde Petite Ceinture (ASPCRF)  www.petiteceinture.org  then to "découvrir la Petite Ceinture d'autrefois", then "Patrimoine de la Petite Ceinture", then "Plans et cartes de la Petite Ceinture", both the 1900 and 1911 maps clearly show the chord connecting the PC to the Montparnasse tracks.

 

This connection has disappeared on the 1959 map, but is visible on city maps from the 1918-1939 period.

 

The curve of rue Castagnary in the 15th district of Paris is also evidence that a rail connection used to exist there.

[EddieB]

I stand corrected!  My source was the Continental Railway Handbook - France, by the late JB Snell (see p80).  Snell remarked that the difference in levels would have precluded a connection.

 

Anway, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

[Pacific231G]

I stand corrected!  My source was the Continental Railway Handbook - France, by the late JB Snell (see p80).  Snell remarked that the difference in levels would have precluded a connection.

 

Anway, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

The raccordement Vaugirard definitely existed but appears never to have made a direct connection with the main lines of the P.C. Plans and photos show a single curved and fairly steep track that ran from a yard outside Montparnasse and ended in a dead end connected to the inner anti-clockwise track of the Petite Ceinture via a trailing crossover. I'd guess it was only used for wagon movements and possibly stock transfers but not for service trains. 

This would make Montparnasse the only mainline terminus in Paris not to have had a direct link with the P.C.

According to the maps and "profiles" I have, the raccordement still existed in 1935 but had gone by 1951. A contemporary description from 1927 describes the connection as being "practically disused".   This map is from some years earlier before the Paris fortifications had been removed. Note that south is up.

 

 

This is from the 1916 schematics of both lines from 1916

 

Again the section of PC is south up and the line from Montparnasse is roughly east up

[141 C 78]

Thanks for the maps and complementary info!

 

I cycled past Ouest-Ceinture station an hour ago, it's been disused for a while now and what its future might be is anybody's guess...

[Pacific231G]

Thanks for the maps and complementary info!

 

I cycled past Ouest-Ceinture station an hour ago, it's been disused for a while now and what its future might be is anybody's guess...

Envy, envy ;-)

 

The PC lost its own passenger services in 1934 though it continued to carry through coaches between the Paris termini for many more years but that was mostly north of the Seine. The lower platforms at Ouest-Ceinture would have been disused since then. The two upper platforms continued to be used for local trains out of Montparnasse until 1986 when it was "temporarily" closed for the building of LGV Atlantique. Needless to say it has never re-opened.

 

After the Petite Ceinture closed to passengers, services did continue on the Auteuil line from Pont-Cardinet (the first suburban station out of St-Lazare) which had actually been built by the l'Ouest and simply incorporated into the PC. That line had been electrified on third rail in 1924 and continued in service until 1985 when the outer sections were closed so that the rest of it could be incorporated into RER C. So you can still travel on at least that part of it ,

 

As to the rest of the P.C. there have been constant campaigns to make use of it but with the new tramways following the boulevard a bit further out that's probably unlikely at least for the southern section and being turned into a Voie Verte seems a more likely future for at least part of it.

[141 C 78]

By the way, have you heard of/seen the excellent DVD "La belle aux voies dormantes", a contemporary exploration of the PC? This documentary was released in 2010. It opens with some B&W footage of the special steam train chartered by FACS ca. 1966 right round the PC (except the Auteuil branch).

 

When I was in the "lycée" in Paris in 1968, a mate of mine told me that the cheapest way of watching trains in/out of Montparnasse was not to buy a platform ticket, but to take a single to Ouest-Ceinture. You got a 2km trip thrown in and could see the trains at speed!