Wright writes.....

[stewartingram]

Well - I can confirm that the tender drive Black 5 loco chassis will take an X04 as a direct fit in the chassis weight cut-out - it just needs a hole drilling and tapping for the motor fixing screw.

 

Also, Ultrascale produce 40:1 direct replacement gears for the Tri-ang Hornby X04 powered chassis, with either 9/64" or 1/8" bore for Tr-ang Hornby or Romford axles.

 

So - I will convert my 1st generation Triang Hornby Black 5, (and a Standard 5 that I built from a Hornby Black 5 boiler and / Airfix Mogul kit parts), from tender drive to X04 loco drive with Ultrascale 40:1 gearing.

 

I will report back in due course.

 

Sorry for highjacking Tony's thread!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

You obviously found my source! I confirm it is Ultrascale. Add a good pwm controller, pickups on all wheels, and you can have ultra-slow reliable running.

 

https://www.ultrascale.com/eshop/products/CAT015#RTRRG

 

Stewart (also with apologies to Tony, but thought the info helpful to others?)

[Tony Wright]

Not sure who produced them at this distance in time but there used to be 30 to 1 and 40 to 1 gear sets consisting of a steel worm and brass gearwheel in the days when motors like the XO4 and 5-pole variants were very popular. The latter could be screwed to a 1/8" axle.

Larry,

          Standard Romfords used to fit an XO4-type motor - steel worm and brass gear wheel (still will). I used dozens of them in the original scratch-built or Jamieson chassis I made. In my teaching days when I had access to a fully-equipped workshop I made a master pattern in steel which gave the exact angle/pitch necessary for fitting an XO4-style motor. The trick was to sweat the two frames of one eighth width together, blue one side, put a Romford axle through the hole in the master and the driven bearing in the frames, clamp the master and frames together and mark out the shallow 'V' in the frames. Then on to the milling machine to cut out the 'V', finishing off by filing the little slots for the lugs on the motor. Then the two frames were separated, held together using a Jamieson jig and then the flat/turned spacers were soldered in place (I never screwed spacers in place) with a 70 Watt iron. The slot was necessary for OO because of the width of the motor, but for EM , if you used thinner-section frames, an XO4-style motor would just fit between with no need for a cut-out.

 

I rarely used XO4 motors because they were three-pole, preferring Airfix or MW OO5 five-pole equivalents, or, the Rolls Royce of such motors at the time (1970s), those 'made' by Bernard Jepson of Lichfield. He used to take Tri-ang XO4 motors and fit five or seven-pole armatures, replace the brush gear and re-magnetise the whole things, stamping a unique number on the top. They were sold by Modellers Mecca and were more expensive than the equivalents, but boy were they good! They came in a splendid little cardboard box. They were my motor of choice for dozens and dozens of chassis I made at the time, especially as later equivalents went for a more chunky brush arrangement, meaning they needed a wider slot in the body to accommodate them.

 

For those who wished to 'improve' a standard Tri-ang chassis with an XO4, there was the availability of a replacement 'single-start' brass worm (I assume the originals were 'twin-start'?).The trick was to use a 'worm-puller' to remove the original worm, then fit the replacement - a friction fit. It made the locos slower but smoother.

 

Looking back, the method of making chassis 30/40 years ago was dinosaurial (please note the '0' in place of the 'a' - pedant mode), but they were immensely reliable and robust. So much so that when a friend dropped my scratch-built K4, though the cab and tender were effectively wrecked, the chassis was untouched and still runs as well as ever. It's pictured below.

 

How different it is today with more and more layouts, many on this site, using RTR motive power. Good they are, but aren't they all rather the same, no matter how much they've been altered? Nostalgia makes me look back to 'the good old days' when railway modelling meant just that - to actually make models! 

 

 

Here's the K4 scratch-built chassis. Coupling rods are filed-down rail and the gear a mixture of Jamieson/Nu-Cast/scratch. Romford 30-1 gears provide the 'gearbox'. The Jepson motor is still going strong, despite its age and having been dropped!

 

 

The disadvantage of the slot in the frames is that it's easily seen in side-profile. Apologies for this loco having been seen before but it illustrates the principles of scratch-built frames (scratch-built loco, too) quite well. Now, 40 years on, would I do the same? Of course not (compare this with Hornby's O1), but at least it's all 'mine', something that has been essential throughout all my modelling 'career'.

[will5210]

Hi Tony,

 

Do you have any pictures of the complete K4 please?

 

Cheers

[Mrkirtley800]

How I agree with you, Tony, scratch built chassis using thick brass certainly gave a chunky feel. Actually, a friend was a printer by trade, and his company used "brass rule", a 1mm thick hard brass with beautiful straight edges, ideal for loco building. The company went on to using lead rule, so we had access to a lot of brass rule. I used the last of it about five years ago. Most of my building was done many years ago. The Midland 3P was built in 1959.

Derek

[coachmann]

Thanks Tony, my memory ain't what it used to be. When building locos for a crust I eventually turned my back on the MW005 5-pole motor and went back to using Triang 3-pole motors. They gave a smooth start with the 30-to-1 gearset. I must have built quite a few locos at the speed I generally work in the 1970's. I bought some handbuilt locos off George Mellor to refurbish and sell and they contained a history of the model motor under their superstructures. Some of the big 'uns would take yer finger end off!

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I'd put a kit or scratchbuilt loco against rtr every time - there's something real about the hand finished metal models that plastic just can't match. Even if the 'accuracy' and level of detail isn't always there, they just have charisma that the mass produced stuff doesn't

 

I only wish I could convince myself to have a crack, but the cost and horror stories puts me off.

[Jol Wilkinson]

DR G-F,

 

take up the challenge! The horror stories probably came from those who took on something too ambitious or other wise unsuitable for a first model. Iain Rices book Etched Locomotive Construction from WSP, although now rather long in the tooth, is still the best guide.

 

Start with something straightforward, e.g. a small tank loco of a model of interest to you. Most of the kit suppliers will be honest about what they consider suitable for a first attempt. Go for something that had a simple livery, plain black or BR mixed traffic livery (not difficult with water-slide decals) for example.

 

​As for cost, always an issue compared to  volume produced and discounted RTR models. But think of the enjoyment and satisfaction you can get from making your own models.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Knowing me I'd want something with walschaerts valve gear!  

[queensquare]

How I agree with you, Tony, scratch built chassis using thick brass certainly gave a chunky feel. Actually, a friend was a printer by trade, and his company used "brass rule", a 1mm thick hard brass with beautiful straight edges, ideal for loco building. The company went on to using lead rule, so we had access to a lot of brass rule. I used the last of it about five years ago. Most of my building was done many years ago. The Midland 3P was built in 1959.

Derek

 

What a beautiful loco that 3P is, I don't think there is a better colour to paint a loco:-)

 

I fully agree with the comments regarding solid, scratchbuilt frames. Some of my locos are at least 20 years old and I have a couple of the late Denys Brownlee's locos which are showing few signs of wear despite being well over thirty years old.

 

Jerry

[coachmann]

I'm afraid the 'cant do' is a stubborn refusal to take the bull by the horns and get stuck in to hell and high water. If folk want to build a loco, build one!  They will have made a start on the road to self-reliance even if burned fingers becomes a way of life! 

Edited April 8, 2014 by coachmann

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony,

 

Do you have any pictures of the complete K4 please?

 

Cheers

Quite a few pictures of it have appeared in the model press down the years, most recently in my book A Lifetime With Locomotives And Layouts. However, I can't bring myself to take a further picture of it - what with buckled tender and wrecked cab. From what I could tell, the loco must have hit the floor tender-first, thus driving the two front edges of the tender into the cabsides. Because (obviously) the window apertures weaken any cab structure, that took the brunt, the solder seam holding the cab roof both sides split and the spectacle plate wrapped itself round the firebox rear. In producing this carnage, the two front edges of the tender were bent inwards, causing a prominent crease both sides ahead of the front bulkhead. The tender bufferbeam was also a bit mangled. Strangely, had the loco been built of white metal it might have been saved - just chuck the lot into boiling water, straighten the bits and rebuild. Unfortunately, brass doesn't behave in this way, nor should it. It's really beyond repair, other than make a new tender and cab because the rest stood up reasonably well. Such is life, but it's the only scratch-built loco I still possess. 

 

Anyone else got similar horror stories? 

[Tony Wright]

How I agree with you, Tony, scratch built chassis using thick brass certainly gave a chunky feel. Actually, a friend was a printer by trade, and his company used "brass rule", a 1mm thick hard brass with beautiful straight edges, ideal for loco building. The company went on to using lead rule, so we had access to a lot of brass rule. I used the last of it about five years ago. Most of my building was done many years ago. The Midland 3P was built in 1959.

Derek

Derek,

           My compliments - what an absolute beauty. 1959, you say, when it was built - and there's me claiming some sort of 'status' by suggesting some of my locos are 40 years old! All I'd managed by 1959 (at 13) was 'motorise' the first Kitmaster locos by using a Tri-ang chassis - a 'Jinty' underneath a diesel shunter. How ghastly!

[Tony Wright]

DR G-F,

 

take up the challenge! The horror stories probably came from those who took on something too ambitious or other wise unsuitable for a first model. Iain Rices book Etched Locomotive Construction from WSP, although now rather long in the tooth, is still the best guide.

 

Start with something straightforward, e.g. a small tank loco of a model of interest to you. Most of the kit suppliers will be honest about what they consider suitable for a first attempt. Go for something that had a simple livery, plain black or BR mixed traffic livery (not difficult with water-slide decals) for example.

 

​As for cost, always an issue compared to  volume produced and discounted RTR models. But think of the enjoyment and satisfaction you can get from making your own models.

Jol,

      At last, a voice in the wilderness advocating actually making things for yourself! 

 

Well said Larry as well - oh, and I forgot to mention the Romford 'Bulldog' in my musings of the other day, or, for that matter, the Airfix 'Slimline', which could just about be squeezed between frames - a sort of 'proper' K's motor.

 

Returning to this theme of building locos (and carriages/signals/structures/etc) for yourself, I suppose the 'excellence' of today's proprietary models has rendered the need for locos (in particular) of the more popular classes to be built to be much lessened. How many times have I said that now? However (and here we go again), it does create a certain 'sameness' which is less than satisfactory (with regards to actual modelling skills) in my opinion. Recently, the model press has featured similar-themed layouts where almost all the stock is modified RTR by Bachmann and Hornby. Yes, it's good, but how much more 'exciting' would it be (like the exquisite Midland 3P featured a few posts back) if the models were actually 'made' by the builders themselves? How much more personal.

 

In case this smacks of elitism, I must restate that I've been fortunate in my modelling in that I've been involved with a group down the years which has 'made' things - things I don't like making like baseboards, track, signals, structures, etc. However, I built most of the locos and much of the passenger stock. I thinks it's called symbiotic. At the time this was out of necessity but even with the improvements in RTR, the making of things was still the most important. Very little was sub-contracted out (apart from, in some cases, the painting of the locos and Pullman cars). 

 

Of course there are those who can't/won't make things (nor ever will), either through lack of skill, indolence or time or fiscal constraints/restraints. They will still be participants in the hobby (and why not?) but their 'status' will surely never be the same as those who actually make things for themselves. If they can achieve their aims by acquiring what they want, then good luck to them - it's their money, but they'll never enjoy the feeling of saying 'I made that'. One could argue that, if the thing one has made is 'grotty', what satisfaction is there in that? Make it for yourself and then you'll know! 

 

Having been a teacher, and for many years a model railway tutor, it's clear there are those who'll never be able to make things, other than a mess. In my time as a test/review/instruction writer/builder of loco kits, probably 90% were never finished (by purchasers) to a satisfactory standard - mechanically and/or visually. This was mainly down to 'aspiration over ability' but, in some cases, the kits could never be built as supplied. Thus, for whatever reason, many an attractive box for a loco kit became its coffin. For those who still want things they can't make for themselves, and can afford to have others do it for them, they can be a 'hostage to fortune'. By that I mean many 'showcase' models are just that - good in a showcase, but they don't run. In some ways it's down to an attitude towards possessions, and, because railway modelling is a 'constructive' hobby, I'll always maintain that things you've made yourself will always have a greater value (in terms of personal satisfaction) than things others have made for you, be they by the RTR boys or by 'professionals'. But, that's me.  

[Mallard60022]

Fritters. If I can build a loco then anyone can and that is the honest truth so help me......even Mr. Wright can confirm my Mr Blobbyness Soldering Certificate

Why not try a good old SE Finecast 0.6.0. If you bust a part, Dave will send you a replacement for a few pennies round and flat. Only thing is they are whitemetal so maybe you need a bit of practise with some whitemetal soldering first? I think I have a heap of bits somewhere that you can have.

P @ 36E

Edited April 8, 2014 by Mallard60022

[Mrkirtley800]

Derek,

           My compliments - what an absolute beauty. 1959, you say, when it was built - and there's me claiming some sort of 'status' by suggesting some of my locos are 40 years old! All I'd managed by 1959 (at 13) was 'motorise' the first Kitmaster locos by using a Tri-ang chassis - a 'Jinty' underneath a diesel shunter. How ghastly!

Thank you, Tony. 1959 was a wonderful summer with endless sunshine. I was studying pretty hard for my finals for my chemistry degree, and built this loco for a bit of relaxation between whiles. I did it outside in the garden, using my parents concrete coal bunker as a bench, the vice was in the shed and used my dad's soldering iron, heated up with a blowlamp. Killed spirits (Baker's fluid) was the flux.

Initially it was paired up with a Triang L1 tender while I built the bogie water cart.

Finally it was (roughly) painted by me, and wasn't properly finished until Coachman Larry gave it the treatment quite a bit later on. Thanks Larry.

Initially it sported Hamblin's wheels and a K's Mark 1 motor with Romford gears. As soon as decent wheels became available, they were used and now is powered by an Ultrascale motor/gearbox. Over the years I have added bits of detail and now can be classed as finished - or is it?

Derek

[Paul Cram]

I agree with you 100% on the satisfaction of building something point. I purchased a couple of Hornby Gresley suburbans in teak and they are very good models.. I won't be buying any more as I found that the pleasure of owning them was less then the Kirk equivalents that I built myself. In some ways I am fortunate that I model in P4 as this reduces the temptation to buy ready to run as usually there is a lot of work just to convert them. Whether I rewheel the Hornbys or not remains to be seen but I am in no hurry as I need to widen the clearance to get P4 wheels in. It may be easier to replace the bogies.

[buffalo]

Knowing me I'd want something with walschaerts valve gear!  

No problem, do what Churchward did and put it between the frames. That way, you won't need to model it until you've had a bit of practice

 

Nick

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Dammit, I'm going to build something!

 

Job1) finish shed and workbench

Job 2) lay train set to play while...

Job 3) melt pieces of whitemetal

[davidw]

This was my third loco kit 

 

 

The valve gear has since been corrected and it still needs a bit of weathering but it shows what a beginner can do. Not up to Tony's standard. But it runs reasonably well. 

 

I purchased the kit before the Bachmann A2 model was announced.  Wish I'd chosen a different one in hind-site. An A2/2 is still on the go. It was very satisfying to build.

Edited April 8, 2014 by davidw

[Tony Wright]

Fritters. If I can build a loco then anyone can and that is the honest truth so help me......even Mr. Wright can confirm my Mr Blobbyness Soldering Certificate

Why not try a good old SE Finecast 0.6.0. If you bust a part, Dave will send you a replacement for a few pennies round and flat. Only thing is they are whitemetal so maybe you need a bit of practise with some whitemetal soldering first? I think I have a heap of bits somewhere that you can have.

P @ 36E

Phil,

       You're modest as ever, but there is a huge amount of truth in what you say - not so much you're 'blobby' soldering (which eventually became sublime) but in your advocacy of trying something like a SE Finecast kit. And, they're not all white metal now, so multi-soldering techniques can be attempted. 

 

For those who'd like to try some modelling for themselves, I thoroughly recommend the likes of Hobby Holidays or Missenden Abbey. I used to be a tutor at both events but I can no longer contemplate that. Both are (were, in my case?) a great success. Do you remember the occasion where two chaps (were you one?) at Hobby Holidays built two identical chassis - one under Phil's guidance, using his magic gadget jig, and one erected using my Jamieson jig? Both ran beautifully, yet the one under my guidance was done in half the time. How we laughed. But, the point was, those guys actually made it for themselves. Yes, there was a cost implication with regard to the course but wasn't it invaluable with regard to what they learned? To have paid someone else to do it for them would have resulted in nowhere near the same level of satisfaction. You can't beat it!

[Tony Wright]

This was my third loco kit 

 

 

The valve gear has since been corrected and it still needs a bit of weathering but it shows what a beginner can do. Not up to Tony's standard. But it runs reasonably well. 

 

I purchased the kit before the Bachmann A2 model was announced.  Wish I'd chosen a different one in hind-site. An A2/2 is still on the go. It was very satisfying to build.

Not up to my standard? In what way? It looks like you've fitted the rear lighting to the tender (which I didn't bother with because my locos don't appear light engine, nor need to run tender-first) and you're probably correct in fitting black-painted nameplates. Granted, mine's painted by Ian Rathbone (in work-a-day oily but slightly grimy condition), but your painting is by you, and, as such, much more meritorious. You look to have altered the cab to rake-in properly and the angle of the firebox is spot on.

 

Why, in hindsight, would you have preferred a Bachmann A2? Anyone can own one of those as long as they can pay for it. Your DJH A2 is so much better - 'thin' cabsides and tender sides, the footplates line up, there's no seam at the bottom of the boiler and it's all yours! Just think of the enjoyment you've got from it - you made it and you painted it. You didn't need to pay anyone else!

 

The difference, if I may be so bold, is in the standard of photography!

 

My efforts are shown below.

 

 

[davidw]

Thanks Tony. Kind words; built as a result of the activity media DVD's

[Mrkirtley800]

I'd put a kit or scratchbuilt loco against rtr every time - there's something real about the hand finished metal models that plastic just can't match. Even if the 'accuracy' and level of detail isn't always there, they just have charisma that the mass produced stuff doesn't

 

I only wish I could convince myself to have a crack, but the cost and horror stories puts me off.

Hello Dr.G.F Scratch building model locos is not rocket science, it is a minimum expertise with simple tools, an ability to study photographs and drawings and a lot of patience with a bit of determination. Like many things in life, the hardest part of the job is making a start.

A couple of years after building the 3P I got a new job in Stafford. I made friends in the new place so one day I showed them my loco. One of them wished he could do something like that. I was in lodgings then, only going home at weekends, so had plenty of spare time. I offered to show him how, so went to his house every Tuesday evening for a loco building session. We chose a simple engine, a Midland class M 0-6-0.

He had a few tools and with the ones I took with me we were set up, but I had to show him how to solder before we could make a start.

Without going into a lot of detail, we both ended up with an 0-6-0 engine and tender built to EM gauge, AND BOTH WORKED.

I left to take up another job in Scarborough this time, but when I left he was scratch building a LNWR G2 0-8-0

I joined the railway society in Scarborough and exactly the same thing happened. By this time I was married and had a house with a loft containing a model railway. Again a chap who became a friend and partner in crime for 42 years (before sadly passing away) expressed a wish to be shown how to "do it".

Like before, we built a loco each, this time for me it was a NER P2 in EM, for him it was a LNER J27 in 00.

Once we had an engine each, he was away, building a series of LNER locos B1 (with scratch built valve gear) G5, B16 etc etc.

The common factor in both these examples is that, once they had been shown that it wasn't so difficult, they had the confidence to do their own thing.

Sorry for high jacking your thread, Tony.

Derek

[Worsdell forever]

Again a chap who became a friend and partner in crime for 42 years (before sadly passing away) expressed a wish to be shown how to "do it".

Like before, we built a loco each, this time for me it was a NER P2 in EM, for him it was a LNER J27 in 00.

Once we had an engine each, he was away, building a series of LNER locos B1 (with scratch built valve gear) G5, B16 etc etc.

The common factor in both these examples is that, once they had been shown that it wasn't so difficult, they had the confidence to do their own thing.

Sorry for high jacking your thread, Tony.

Derek

 

And many years later that 'Chap' (along with Derek) taught me about building kits and scratchbuilding, we built these two vans (third photo down) together first and the rest, as they say, is history and now I'm passing on the knowledge to anyone that will listen.

 

And I now also own the B16 mentioned by Derek. 

[Iain Popplewell]

Dr.Gerbil Fritters

 Take the advice of all the modelling nobility on this thread and get yourself a kit and give it a go.You'll never look back and the personal satisfaction is enormous.Click on my layout link below ,I've a description of my first etched kit build complete with photo's, but more importantly it lists what books/videos I bought where to buy the bits, tools etc.

It also gives a feel of what it's like to build a kit.

Before I built this kit I'd never even soldered two bits of brass together in my life,but now I feel like I'm  a proper modeller and a man!

I've still to paint the thing though,and I'm just getting up my courage to give it a go.

Edited April 8, 2014 by iainp