Wright writes.....

[Clive Mortimore]

I don't think that anybody did blame the loco for that one, least of all me. I just remembered the incident after Tony W mentioned that real examples of P2s coming to grief by derailing had not been forthcoming.

 

I am a huge P2 fan and I am looking forward to seeing Prince of Wales even more than I looked forward to seeing Tornado. Lots of people are still around with memories of Peppercorm A1s in service but you have to be pretty ancient (apologies to those in that age bracket) to remember a P2 in original form, so somehow that makes it more special.

Makes one think of Jurassic Park. It also reminds me of my son asking my mum, " Nanny you are old, do you remember the dinosaurs?"

[sp1]

Makes one think of Jurassic Park. It also reminds me of my son asking my mum, " Nanny you are old, do you remember the dinosaurs?"

Or, like my son, when he was about 3: 'Dad, what happened to the dinosaurs- did the Germans kill them all in the war?.........!!!

[St Enodoc]

I had one a bit like that - but not so many times - at Llandarcy one December night with a 45 ton RTC which had run away through the traps due to a dodgy handbrake.  Getting it rerailed was a bit of a game and we couldn't reach it with a coupling so I told the Shunter to use a fishplate in to lengthen the coupling and make sure the engine kept pulling and to scotch the wheels before the coupling slackened.  I'm in the shunting frame (former signalbox) on the 'phone to Control saying 'Rerailed 22.30, NWR 22.35 and we might as well say BDVans departed 22.45' as the engine hauled the tank car up the loop past the 'box, followed by a shout and a rumbling noise as the coupling slackened, the fishplate dropped out, the handbrake was still no use, and back it rolled to land on the deck about half an inch from where it had been before being rerailed.  

 

So the end of the conversation with Control became 'Derailed again at 22.35, Vans still on site, Driver wants relief'.  I won't tell you what I said to the Shunter.

If the crane was in steam I think I might have engaged the travel gear and tried to move the crane under its own power - with a little help from the loco using a wire sling rather than a fishplate - and having someone walking alongside armed with scotches or rail skids. However, not being there of course I don't know the full story.

 

Apologies for hijacking the topic - perhaps there is scope for a "derailment war stories" topic somewhere.

[St Enodoc]

Makes one think of Jurassic Park. It also reminds me of my son asking my mum, " Nanny you are old, do you remember the dinosaurs?"

My daughter was doing a project on the Victorians. She asked my mum what it was like to wear a crinoline.

[DougN]

My daughter was doing a project on the Victorians. She asked my mum what it was like to wear a crinoline.

Well you can ask the Victorian state government as their thinking still has not moved from that period!.....

[Focalplane]

Second day at the work bench and the David Andrews' Fowler tender is beginning to come to life.  The etched kit design is most interesting, very accurate to fit and solder together.  But I must be getting more experienced because I immediately saw that the wire hand rails needed to be fitted before soldering up the tender sides though no mention was made of this in the otherwise excellent instructions.

 

 

Compared to the equivalent Connoisseur LMS 4F tender, the David Andrews' kit is slightly more detailed and has more lost wax brass fittings instead of white metal.

 

I can see why so many people recommend these two 7mm kit manufacturers.

[St Enodoc]

Well you can ask the Victorian state government as their thinking still has not moved from that period!.....

From where I'm sitting in a client's office in Melbourne right now, it's hard to disagree (fortunately heading back north of the Murray later today).

[DougN]

Well it was nice to have you in Australia's most liveable city.... Even if we have 18 months of grid lock ahead of us! They have decided that it is a good idea to widen 2 of the major freeways into the city... At the same time.... Just wish they would finish the ring road that is missing in the north east of the city.

[The Stationmaster]

If the crane was in steam I think I might have engaged the travel gear and tried to move the crane under its own power - with a little help from the loco using a wire sling rather than a fishplate - and having someone walking alongside armed with scotches or rail skids. However, not being there of course I don't know the full story.

 

Apologies for hijacking the topic - perhaps there is scope for a "derailment war stories" topic somewhere.

 

Crane?? The last thing you wanted on most derailment sites was a crane - awful, time consuming, expensive things.  I only ever once worked directly with a crane on a derailment job and it was an absolute nightmare trying to do it safely and run traffic on nearby lines.  The best re-railing device I ever saw was two NCB blokes using a bullwinch - quick & cheap but the wagons involved were only locked together so it was an ideal way of doing it.

 

I used to have a habit of taking the cotters out of the back end of wagon buffers before pulling them apart and trusting they would drop back on the road (never had one fail to do so) -  and that was far simpler than those blasted OLEO buffers which need someone with burning gear to get rid of the securing bolts.

 

Short of calling out the MFD gear (super stuff) the best answer for many re-railing problems was some timber, ideally some bits of steel plate, and a few fishplates.

[Class O]

Crane?? The last thing you wanted on most derailment sites was a crane - awful, time consuming, expensive things.  I only ever once worked directly with a crane on a derailment job and it was an absolute nightmare trying to do it safely and run traffic on nearby lines.  The best re-railing device I ever saw was two NCB blokes using a bullwinch - quick & cheap but the wagons involved were only locked together so it was an ideal way of doing it.

 

I used to have a habit of taking the cotters out of the back end of wagon buffers before pulling them apart and trusting they would drop back on the road (never had one fail to do so) -  and that was far simpler than those blasted OLEO buffers which need someone with burning gear to get rid of the securing bolts.

 

Short of calling out the MFD gear (super stuff) the best answer for many re-railing problems was some timber, ideally some bits of steel plate, and a few fishplates.

My Dad was in the breakdown gang here at West Hartlepool, he said the crane was only used if essential, when they got MFD gear they travelled far and wide, I remember once they went to Horton in Ribblesdale.....

[russ p]

I don't know if I can answer your question Paul with regard to the wheel arrangement/class designation on the LNER but it was by far the most logical of any of the Big Four companies. 

 

A, of course, was 4-6-2 (Pacific), starting with tender locos, beginning with the GNR-built pair then the NER-built ones. Anticipating further development, Gresley deliberately left A3 and A4 vacant in 1923. Then it was the various tanks, etc. 

 

The arrangement for all the pre-Grouping classes was GNR first, then GC, then GE, then NE, then H&B (though some NE locos were listed between), then NBR, then GNoSR and then M&GNR. Quite where the Met' 0-6-4s fitted in, I'm not sure, since there was only one class. Obviously, some companies didn't have some of the wheel arrangements (no 4-6-0s of GNR-origin, for instance), so, in the case of the pre-Grouping 4-6-0s, the GCR was first. Some arrangements were only tender locos (4-4-0 and 4-6-0) and many were just tanks. 

 

LNER-built locos then took the next available class designations (until Thompson insisted that ALL his locos would take the lowest possible classification, thus demoting older engines to the back - A1 to A10, B1 to B18, etc).

 

So...

 

A; 4-6-2

B; 4-6-0

C; 4-4-2

D; 4-4-0

E; 2-4-0

F; 2-4-2

G; 0-4-4

H; 4-4-4

I; left blank because of potential mix up with 1

J; 0-6-0

K; 2-6-0

L; 2-6-4

M; 0-6-4

N; 0-6-2

O; 2-8-0

P; 2-8-2

Q; 0-8-0

R; 0-8-2

S; 0-8-4

T; 4-8-0

U; 2-8-0 - 0-8-2

V; 2-6-2

W; 4-6-4 (or, really, 4-6-2-2)

X; miscellaneous single-drivers

Y; 0-4-0

Z; 0-4-2

 

U and W represented respectively only one class of (tender) locos. R, S and T also represented only one class respectively of (tank) locos. 

 

Though logical, where the system could cause confusion is with the sub-divisions involved. By this I mean that, say, the difference between an O4/1 and and O4/3 was whether it had a water scoop or vacuum brake, yet A2/1, A2/2 and A2/3 were different classes. In the case of the A4s, which had (at times) different chimneys and towed different tenders, there were no sub-divisions.

 

I hope this helps (and I hope it's all right, since I've just done it from memory).

 

It's obvious now to me why Gresley didn't build his 4-8-2 heavy passenger loco now.... There was no letters in the alphabet left to give it a class!!

[St Enodoc]

Crane?? The last thing you wanted on most derailment sites was a crane - awful, time consuming, expensive things.  I only ever once worked directly with a crane on a derailment job and it was an absolute nightmare trying to do it safely and run traffic on nearby lines.  The best re-railing device I ever saw was two NCB blokes using a bullwinch - quick & cheap but the wagons involved were only locked together so it was an ideal way of doing it.

 

I used to have a habit of taking the cotters out of the back end of wagon buffers before pulling them apart and trusting they would drop back on the road (never had one fail to do so) -  and that was far simpler than those blasted OLEO buffers which need someone with burning gear to get rid of the securing bolts.

 

Short of calling out the MFD gear (super stuff) the best answer for many re-railing problems was some timber, ideally some bits of steel plate, and a few fishplates.

Mike, I think I misunderstood your original post. I thought RTC was Rail Travelling Crane but now I think you probably meant Rail Tank Car.

 

The first thing to try was always to run the thing back on the same way it came off - using timber and bits of steel as you say, and sometimes a loco pulling with the Kelbus gear (although that often resulted in pulling the drawgear out). I don't think I ever used proper rerailing ramps - too much bother. That would work at least 50% of the time and if it didn't you probably weren't any worse off. Ordinary jacks next, to avoid carting all the MFD gear to the site. MFD itself was excellent, especially with all the exciting bits like traverse beams and trolleys, wire ladders and so on. In good hands it could move a derailed vehicle about half an inch at a time. One of my ex-bosses was a big fan of air bags which in the right situation were brilliant. As you say, only bring in the breakdown crane itself as a last resort. All the cranes I worked with did about 5 bridge jobs for every derailment they went to.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Just in case anyone else was wondering what all the acronyms mean, here's a link to a previous post from Mike showing MFD gear in use.

[gr.king]

It's obvious now to me why Gresley didn't build his 4-8-2 heavy passenger loco now.... There was no letters in the alphabet left to give it a class!!

 

Not sure about that. R was vacant after the withdrawal of the big Ivatt tank engines in the early thirties.

[St Enodoc]

Just in case anyone else was wondering what all the acronyms mean, here's a link to a previous post from Mike showing MFD gear in use.

MaschinenFabrik Deutschland - the original name of the makers. The hydraulic jacks are controlled from a central console. The key feature (unlike the lighter Lukas gear favoured by the Southern Region) is that hydraulic pressure was used both to raise and lower the jacks. Most other types relied on gravity to lower.

[LNER4479]

Crane?? The last thing you wanted on most derailment sites was a crane - awful, time consuming, expensive things.

Even more so when you had OLE to contend with (apologies - another TLA. Overhead Line Equipment). Not a problem on the Western but over on the LM... Only saw one used once, when we managed to put a whole coach on its side, clean off its bogies. Coach was being shunted having just arrived ex-works from Wolverton. Oops!

[russ p]

There are some really trick bits of kit for MFD, I went on a course to use it years ago. We had to right a 100t tank that was on its side. This was done by the use of a steel rope ladders that were put round the tank. Two pairs of tall jacks were used on this to kind of twist the tank upright

[Tony Wright]

Keeping up with the main theme of this thread; that of making things.

 

 

This is the progress so far with regard to the ACE P2 build. Those who watched Grantham last weekend at Nottingham might have seen it in extremely stripped-down condition, parked on shed. 

 

Anyway, so far so good; a bit of a 'fight' to say the least, with several parts not being supplied it would seem (no chimney and no tender interior, for instance) and many of those parts that were supplied not fitting properly (the smokebox front). Typical of the breed? I'm told so by those who've built the kits in O Gauge. That said, I'm sure (especially with Ian Rathbone's painting) she'll turn out an impressive beast. Who would have thought a P2 (of any sort) would become available RTR? 

 

This one goes like stink, even without any ballast (yet) will haul a train (perhaps not 15 bogies, but it will) and hasn't spread any of the track on Grantham or Little Bytham!

[Focalplane]

Tony, that's an interesting kit to be sure!  What minimum radius curve are your expecting it to run in?

 

I posted a comment elsewhere (my blog) yesterday which may be of interest to a wider audience.  Even though it relates to 7mm scale it may be of relevance to other scales.

 

Slater's wheels have nifty allen key driven countersunk bolts that secure the wheels to the axles.  The allen key that Slater sells is made of soft metal and the hexagonal outline soon becomes well rounded with limited use.  I had read that some modellers buy their allen keys from other, less expensive sources.  So I did the same.  The allen keys are indeed made of harder material, so much so that after a limited amount of use they round off the hexagonal outline of the bolts!

 

In an ideal world what is needed is a bolt and an allen key made of materials with the same hardness but in the meantime I thought I should share this experience.  Go easy on your allen keys!

 

In addition, one comment notes that the use of loctite on the threads of the bolts should be used sparingly.  I have yet to even try this, but I have one wheel which is now permanently attached to its axle.

[gr.king]

Notwithstanding the many niggles that P2 when completed has to be a winner since it is one of the very few examples of P2 models I've seen in 4mm scale that actually includes the tapers that are present in parts of the boiler as seen from above. The cladding on 2001 & 2002 as built may well have been straight topped, but it was anything but straight along the sides.

[unclebobkt]

Well you can ask the Victorian state government as their thinking still has not moved from that period!.....

 

        As some of you may know on crossing South Australia's boundary from the east one sets one's watch back 30 minutes for the new time-zone. 

 

  Back in the 1960's - when SA. had a Methodist Premier; there was  6 pm. closing of pubs on week-days and no alcohol on Sundays apart from that allowed to bona fide & out of state arrivals - one pilot on an internal flight made a PA. announcement to the PAX.: 'We are now entering South Australia, all passengers should set their watches back thirty years.'.   Reports suggest that that pilot was dismissed by his airline.

 

          

[St Enodoc]

        As some of you may know on crossing South Australia's boundary from the east one sets one's watch back 30 minutes for the new time-zone. 

 

  Back in the 1960's - when SA. had a Methodist Premier; there was  6 pm. closing of pubs on week-days and no alcohol on Sundays apart from that allowed to bona fide & out of state arrivals - one pilot on an internal flight made a PA. announcement to the PAX.: 'We are now entering South Australia, all passengers should set their watches back thirty years.'.   Reports suggest that that pilot was dismissed by his airline.

 

          

A similar story has been told of travel from NSW to Queensland.

[unclebobkt]

      .... .

  In addition, one comment notes that the use of loctite on the threads of the bolts should be used sparingly.  I have yet to even try this, but I have one wheel which is now permanently attached to its axle.

 

        In fact are there not two grades of 'Loctite.'?

  One grade is what one might call 'Semi-permanent.' - strong enough for general day-to-day use, but with care the parts can be separated/unbonded;

  The other grade is 'Fully permanent.' and once made the parts are bonded together permanently and cannot be separated..

 

       

[Headstock]

Keeping up with the main theme of this thread; that of making things.

 

P2 11 front end on, more tender work.jpg

 

This is the progress so far with regard to the ACE P2 build. Those who watched Grantham last weekend at Nottingham might have seen it in extremely stripped-down condition, parked on shed. 

 

Anyway, so far so good; a bit of a 'fight' to say the least, with several parts not being supplied it would seem (no chimney and no tender interior, for instance) and many of those parts that were supplied not fitting properly (the smokebox front). Typical of the breed? I'm told so by those who've built the kits in O Gauge. That said, I'm sure (especially with Ian Rathbone's painting) she'll turn out an impressive beast. Who would have thought a P2 (of any sort) would become available RTR? 

 

This one goes like stink, even without any ballast (yet) will haul a train (perhaps not 15 bogies, but it will) and hasn't spread any of the track on Grantham or Little Bytham!

 

Hi Tony,

 

I would be interested to know what valve gear you will be employing on this grand construction? Is it scaled down from O gauge, or is it from another source?

[Focalplane]

        In fact are there not two grades of 'Loctite.'?

 

I didn't know there were the two types you describe, but I have always been confused by the options presented to me in various hardware stores, both in England and France.  So I looked on their UK website, loctite co.uk, and found this image:

 

 

When I have an hour or two to spare I will return to the site and work out which glues are best for various applications.

 

It seems to be almost as complicated as selecting the right solder, flux and iron!