Wright writes.....

[Clive Mortimore]

Good morning Tony,

 

from a pure geek perspective, I would be interested to know the build dates (roughly) of your fleet of A1's down the years. The train spotting thing is an interesting one, I guess it is one that is familiar to perhaps the majority of people involved within the hobby. Not my cup of tea I'm afraid, I would love to know what all those locomotives in your list were doing though, times of day, what workings etc. I have come across a couple of spotters books that have been incredible because of the amount of detail they record, sadly they are few and far between, most are just random collections of numbers without any context in which to place them. I suppose that LB is a magnificent way of retrospectively filling in the details of your own spotting lists after the event.

Hi Andrew

 

As a trainspotter when young I think I can hopefully explain why some of the existing records are only a set of random numbers. To most of us, me included we just enjoyed seeing the trains and noting down the number of the loco. The thrill was seeing an engine for the first time and when you got home underlining its number in your Ian Allan book. Spending time with your mates was another important part of trainspotting. What the train was, or its composition, where it was going etc were not that important to eleven and twelve year olds. 

[Headstock]

Hi Andrew

 

As a trainspotter when young I think I can hopefully explain why some of the existing records are only a set of random numbers. To most of us, me included we just enjoyed seeing the trains and noting down the number of the loco. The thrill was seeing an engine for the first time and when you got home underlining its number in your Ian Allan book. Spending time with your mates was another important part of trainspotting. What the train was, or its composition, where it was going etc were not that important to eleven and twelve year olds. 

 

With regard to myself, I think its a weird genetic thing. My Father was a railway/steam enthusiast from the age of three, when he was frightened to death  by an apparent floating LNER tram engine. Being more fascinated by how the thing worked, he always regarded train spotting as a rather pointless task, now, getting under a 4F to look at the valve gear or climbing into the smoke box to see what the blast pipe looked like, that was more his thing. By eight he was up on the footplate of an LMS crab learning how to shunt the local goods yard. I suspect that turning a blind eye to such activities was much more common back in the 1920's/30's than it was in the 50's/60's. I think I've inherited his find out how and why, lets have a go at that approach to most subjects I find interesting.

[jamie92208]

I am sure that there are genetics involved in our love of railways.  My father had a keen interest and apparently once sort of hijacked a train somewhere in Nigeria to ensure that he got to where he wanted to go.   He kept a fairly detailed diary of his trainspotting up until the late 60's.   This was done in two colours of ink with red for new cops and detailed totals at the end of each journey. I have inherited the two notebooks and as well as being a great guide to my youth and where our various holidays were spent, they are a great source of prototype information.  From this source I know where he was when I was born.(I was in Carlisle he was on Liverpool Exchange watching a Clan), which duchesses I saw on Shap when we had a picnic where the M6 now runs, which GWR locos I saw en route to a holiday in Wales and most galling of all which BR Standard hauled a 3 yr old me over Stainmore while I slept.

 

JAMIE

[richard i]

Must have missed a generation with me. None of my immediate family has any interest, and it was not what I saw. I like brush steam locos. I grew up with German hydraulics .

 

Richard

[coachmann]

Right from a child I just loved being around stations and steam locos. Working at a loco depot was the only job I felt at home in. I used to spent time in the loco yard at Llangollen soaking up the 'perfume' and watching someone disposing an engine. I would have done it gladly, sad git that I am. Such places are out of bounds now of course.

Edited November 5, 2017 by coachmann

[Headstock]

I am sure that there are genetics involved in our love of railways.  My father had a keen interest and apparently once sort of hijacked a train somewhere in Nigeria to ensure that he got to where he wanted to go.   He kept a fairly detailed diary of his trainspotting up until the late 60's.   This was done in two colours of ink with red for new cops and detailed totals at the end of each journey. I have inherited the two notebooks and as well as being a great guide to my youth and where our various holidays were spent, they are a great source of prototype information.  From this source I know where he was when I was born.(I was in Carlisle he was on Liverpool Exchange watching a Clan), which duchesses I saw on Shap when we had a picnic where the M6 now runs, which GWR locos I saw en route to a holiday in Wales and most galling of all which BR Standard hauled a 3 yr old me over Stainmore while I slept.

 

JAMIE

 

Come to think about it , my Fathers Grandfather, my Great Grandfather was a Midland railway signalman. I have a photo of him stood on the station platform and tucked away in a in a little box are the buttons from his uniform.

[mullie]

I never train spotted, the succession of EMUs through Brentwood didn't appeal and I'm too young to remember steam. I'm just fascinated by places connected with travel; airports, harbours as well as train stations. My brothers are similar and I think we got it from our father. One of the first things I did when my parents let me travel to London on my own was go round all the termini even though I wasn't sure what I was really looking at, just found it fascinating to see the places I had read about and seen pictures of. I would usually combine it with a trip to Kings Cross Models or similar. Occasionally I would go to stay with my sister who lived in St Neots which meant a trip up the ECML which if I could a front seat in the DMU from Hitchin was amazing. This was after the introduction of HSTs and the Deltic's were still running.

 

I've dabbled in railway modelling for around 40 years, only started to get into it properly over the last ten years nad my modelling has really changed over the last two as a result of threads like this.

 

Strangely, I never considered a career on the railway or in transport, no member of my family had ever done so, and none of us followed our family trade of farm work as we were told by my father that we could do anything other than work on farms, should get a trade or in my case go to University. 

 

Martyn

[Tony Wright]

I never train spotted, the succession of EMUs through Brentwood didn't appeal and I'm too young to remember steam. I'm just fascinated by places connected with travel; airports, harbours as well as train stations. My brothers are similar and I think we got it from our father. One of the first things I did when my parents let me travel to London on my own was go round all the termini even though I wasn't sure what I was really looking at, just found it fascinating to see the places I had read about and seen pictures of. I would usually combine it with a trip to Kings Cross Models or similar. Occasionally I would go to stay with my sister who lived in St Neots which meant a trip up the ECML which if I could a front seat in the DMU from Hitchin was amazing. This was after the introduction of HSTs and the Deltic's were still running.

 

I've dabbled in railway modelling for around 40 years, only started to get into it properly over the last ten years nad my modelling has really changed over the last two as a result of threads like this.

 

Strangely, I never considered a career on the railway or in transport, no member of my family had ever done so, and none of us followed our family trade of farm work as we were told by my father that we could do anything other than work on farms, should get a trade or in my case go to University. 

 

Martyn

Thanks Martyn,

 

However, before all Armageddon rains down on your head, please do not use the (now, unfortunately, too familiar in the media) term 'train station'. They are, and always will be railway stations. Even an advert for the Manchester Show used the term, which has completely put me off attending. 

[coachmann]

Also, avoid words like choo choo, moo cow, chucky egg, baa lamb, pussy cat and inky-winky spider....  

[Tony Wright]

Good morning Tony,

 

from a pure geek perspective, I would be interested to know the build dates (roughly) of your fleet of A1's down the years. The train spotting thing is an interesting one, I guess it is one that is familiar to perhaps the majority of people involved within the hobby. Not my cup of tea I'm afraid, I would love to know what all those locomotives in your list were doing though, times of day, what workings etc. I have come across a couple of spotters books that have been incredible because of the amount of detail they record, sadly they are few and far between, most are just random collections of numbers without any context in which to place them. I suppose that LB is a magnificent way of retrospectively filling in the details of your own spotting lists after the event.

Good evening Andrew,

 

Because I didn't keep diligent records (except accounts when I ran my own business), the actual build-dates for my A1s are rather 'fluid'. I built the first of my DJH ones in the late-'80s, and then at regular intervals up to this year. The A1 (before nearly every OO ECML layout became swamped with Bachmann A1s) was by far my most popular loco ordered by customers; I'd often build three at once, two for clients and one for me. 

 

As Clive has said, to the average trainspotter the obtaining of a 'cop' was most important, scant regard being given (in written form) to what service the loco might have been on. Once 'copped', a loco was not wanted to be seen again and, if it were, shouts of 'Scrap it!' would be heard. Our 'spotting gang, rather parochially, called locos we'd already seen 'stinks'. Some services worked (because of their status) are indelibly fixed in the mind and I recall such great things as copping 46204 on 'The Merseyside Express', 35023 on 'The Bournemouth Belle' and 60027 on 'The Elizabethan' for instance. More humble services were forgotten in the mists of time. 

 

If I did have any 'order' to my 'spotting years, it was in the underling of the cops in my Ian Allan abcs. Poverty meant I only ever had two Combined Volumes (1957 and 1960, ten and six each - what is that in today's money?), but the Locoshed book was bought every two years (only half a crown!). On receipt, any numbers were underlined in blue Biro from the previous volume (often with great sadness as favourites were no longer present) and then any subsequent cop was underlined in red. Amazingly, for me. such foresight has enabled me to fix a time (at least within a year) when I copped a loco. I still have all my old Ian Allans, but, sadly, only the one notebook survives. It was rare to take a Combined Volume on a trainspotting trip, such was their value. 

 

So, in a way (a very important way), my personal modelling takes me back to those marvellous (and innocent) years. It's still more important to me that I make my 'cops', rather than just wave the chequebook, but that's a personal point of view. 

 

Speaking of chequebooks, I had a most enjoyable day today taking pictures of John Emerson's Gifford Street while he entertained the 'Loggies', the Luton Gauge O Group. It would seem that Gauge O is rapidly going the way of 4mm, with a constant stream of RTR models becoming available (at amazingly low prices) Three Jinties appeared, all bought for under £200.00 each. I saw some stuff which had been made, but it seemed to be in a minority, and much of what had been made was on commission. The tale was just the same as I hear in 4mm - 'What's the point? I can't make it as well as the RTR version and, even if I could, it's a lot more expensive and I couldn't possibly match the painting'. 

 

 

One 'made' thing I was re-acquainted with was this Tower/DJH Black Five in O Gauge. I built this in 2003/4 for review in BRM, and Ian Rathbone painted it. I'm glad to tell it's still going strong. I've built about five O Gauge locos and every 7mm modeller has told me that when one 'graduates' to the 'senior school', that's it; you never go back. I have, and I doubt if I'll ever build in the larger scale again (except for a wagon or two for a friend). It's just too big, and cannot possibly give me what I 'want'. That is what I have now in OO. Just imagine doing LB in O. Twice the length, twice the width, and 150 steam-outline locos, not to mention all the stock. If I won the lottery? Perhaps, but I don't know how to enter it. 

 

 

This rather pretty Ivatt 2-6-2T was built on commission by DJH for its owner. 

 

 

Who built this is not known, but it's from a DJH kit. Though actually 'correct', the style of '6' on this model's front numberplate is wrong. It should have a curly-tailed '6'. Retford has been mentioned. If out of shops, this loco could be seen every day stopping at Retford on its daily out-and-back turn, Doncaster-Kings Cross. It ceased to exist nearly 60 years ago! 

 

Thanks to all for a most enjoyable day. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Clearwater]

Tony

 

The ONS publishes RPI data since the war:

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/timeseries/chaw/mm23

 

Other people have produced calculators using the data:

 

http://inflation.stephenmorley.org

 

10s6d (52.5p I think? I’m a post decimalisation baby..). I make that about £11.66 in today’s money

 

David

[petrovich]

Good evening Andrew,

 

Because I didn't keep diligent records (except accounts when I ran my own business), the actual build-dates for my A1s are rather 'fluid'. I built the first of my DJH ones in the late-'80s, and then at regular intervals up to this year. The A1 (before nearly every OO ECML layout became swamped with Bachmann A1s) was by far my most popular loco ordered by customers; I'd often build three at once, two for clients and one for me. 

 

As Clive has said, to the average trainspotter the obtaining of a 'cop' was most important, scant regard being given (in written form) to what service the loco might have been on. Once 'copped', a loco was not wanted to be seen again and, if it were, shouts of 'Scrap it!' would be heard. Our 'spotting gang, rather parochially, called locos we'd already seen 'stinks'. Some services worked (because of their status) are indelibly fixed in the mind and I recall such great things as copping 46204 on 'The Merseyside Express', 35023 on 'The Bournemouth Belle' and 60027 on 'The Elizabethan' for instance. More humble services were forgotten in the mists of time. 

 

If I did have any 'order' to my 'spotting years, it was in the underling of the cops in my Ian Allan abcs. Poverty meant I only ever had two Combined Volumes (1957 and 1960, ten and six each - what is that in today's money?), but the Locoshed book was bought every two years (only half a crown!). On receipt, any numbers were underlined in blue Biro from the previous volume (often with great sadness as favourites were no longer present) and then any subsequent cop was underlined in red. Amazingly, for me. such foresight has enabled me to fix a time (at least within a year) when I copped a loco. I still have all my old Ian Allans, but, sadly, only the one notebook survives. It was rare to take a Combined Volume on a trainspotting trip, such was their value. 

 

So, in a way (a very important way), my personal modelling takes me back to those marvellous (and innocent) years. It's still more important to me that I make my 'cops', rather than just wave the chequebook, but that's a personal point of view. 

 

Speaking of chequebooks, I had a most enjoyable day today taking pictures of John Emerson's Gifford Street while he entertained the 'Loggies', the Luton Gauge O Group. It would seem that Gauge O is rapidly going the way of 4mm, with a constant stream of RTR models becoming available (at amazingly low prices) Three Jinties appeared, all bought for under £200.00. I saw some stuff which had been made, but it seemed to be in a minority, and much of what had been made was on commission. The tale was just the same as I hear in 4mm - 'What's the point? I can't make it as well as the RTR version and, even if I could, it's a lot more expensive and I couldn't possibly match the painting'. 

 

Tower Black Five.jpg

 

One 'made' thing I was re-acquainted with was this Tower/DJH Black Five in O Gauge. I built this in 2003/4 for review in BRM, and Ian Rathbone painted it. I'm glad to tell it's still going strong. I've built about five O Gauge locos and every 7mm modeller has told me that when one 'graduates' to the 'senior school', that's it; you never go back. I have, and I doubt if I'll ever build in the larger scale again (except for a wagon or two for a friend). It's just too big, and cannot possibly give me what I 'want'. That is what I have now in OO. Just imagine doing LB in O. Twice the length, twice the width, and 150 steam-outline locos, not to mention all the stock. If I won the lottery? Perhaps, but I don't know how to enter it. 

 

Ivatt 2-6-2T 03.jpg

 

This rather pretty Ivatt 2-6-2T was built on commission by DJH for its owner. 

 

W1.jpg

 

Who built this is not known, but it's from a DJH kit. Though actually 'correct', the style of '6' on this model's front numberplate is wrong. It should have a curly-tailed '6'. Retford has been mentioned. If out of shops, this loco could be seen every day stopping at Retford on its daily out-and-back turn, Doncaster-Kings Cross. It ceased to exist nearly 60 years ago! 

 

Thanks to all for a most enjoyable day. 

Hi Tony my combined volume cost 11'6d in 1962 and if I remember correctly it was several weeks milk round and evening paper round money plus some help from my father (value now would be around £10.50 approx). Great images again by the way.

 

Regards

 

Peter

[mullie]

Thanks Martyn,

 

However, before all Armageddon rains down on your head, please do not use the (now, unfortunately, too familiar in the media) term 'train station'. They are, and always will be railway stations. Even an advert for the Manchester Show used the term, which has completely put me off attending. 

But then again many of you will use the term 'classical music' with abandon. I have to teach people that it actually refers to  a specific period in musical history, most well known composers being Mozart and Haydn so I know how you feel! 

 

Martyn

[Clearwater]

By way of comparison, to the£11 quoted above, link to today’s equivalents:

 

http://www.booklaw.co.uk/shop/index.php?id_category=34&controller=category

 

Appreciate smaller print runs but they’re not pocket money cheap (unless my perception of 11yo pocket money is wildly out!). Preserved loco book c£16, combined loco and coach book listed at £20.

 

David

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony my combined volume cost 11'6d in 1962 and if I remember correctly it was several weeks milk round and evening paper round money plus some help from my father (value now would be around £10.50 approx). Great images again by the way.

 

Regards

 

Peter

Thanks Peter,

 

So the Combined Volume went up a shilling 'twixt '60 and '62? 

 

I suppose current equivalent prices are slightly more, but most of the facsimile abcs I've bought down the years have been a combination of the Combined Volume and the Locoshed book - 1960 prices, 13 shillings. 

 

I know I got five bob a week for a paper round at the time, so it was over two weeks' wages for me if I'd have wanted the latest Combined Volume. I personally bought neither of mine. The first was given to me on my 11th birthday and the second was a school prize for writing a history essay in 1960. I can't believe the first one (with 46112 SHERWOOD FORESTER on the front) is 60 years old!

[petrovich]

By way of comparison, to the£11 quoted above, link to today’s equivalents:

 

http://www.booklaw.co.uk/shop/index.php?id_category=34&controller=category

 

Appreciate smaller print runs but they’re not pocket money cheap (unless my perception of 11yo pocket money is wildly out!). Preserved loco book c£16, combined loco and coach book listed at £20.

 

David

Hi David

 

I think I got 5 shillings a week for my combined rounds but I had to give my parents some (50%) of that as good practice for later when a proper job was taken. I have to say decilmilisaltion considerably improved things financially but I can't remember why. Five weeks of saving and not using some of my sweet allowance I think got me there. Oh, plus my fathers influence and taking me to other London spotting points free of bus fares helped.

 

Regards

 

Peter

Edited November 5, 2017 by petrovich

[petrovich]

Thanks Peter,

 

So the Combined Volume went up a shilling 'twixt '60 and '62? 

 

I suppose current equivalent prices are slightly more, but most of the facsimile abcs I've bought down the years have been a combination of the Combined Volume and the Locoshed book - 1960 prices, 13 shillings. 

 

I know I got five bob a week for a paper round at the time, so it was over two weeks' wages for me if I'd have wanted the latest Combined Volume. I personally bought neither of mine. The first was given to me on my 11th birthday and the second was a school prize for writing a history essay in 1960. I can't believe the first one (with 46112 SHERWOOD FORESTER on the front) is 60 years old!

Mine has the Blue Pullman on the front is hanging together quite well for 50 odd years of age, at some point I copied my fathers sightings into it and he must have gone far and wide according to his shed visits underlined near the front.

 

Regards

[Andy R]

Tony G

Wonderful overview of one of many innovative ideas used on this iconic layout- even my novice operating was assisted by such innovation!

Alway love hearing about your progress with Buckingham restoration

Regards Andy R

Edited November 6, 2017 by Andy R

[Tony Wright]

 

Another image from yesterday at Gifford Street. 

 

There's no doubt O Gauge has a 'presence' which cannot really be captured by anything smaller. That said, 'errors' are even more apparent - such as the erroneous air pump on BR-numbered Austerity on the left. Did any retain the equipment into BR days? I don't believe so. The one on the right was built/painted/weathered by Tony Geary as a commission for its owner. Tony is one of the foremost current builders. 

 

Chatting to many yesterday (and I've alluded to this before in the previous post), I think O Gauge is rapidly following the mainstream 4mm path with a growing dependence on RTR or having stuff built on commission. Perhaps the latter was always there in the senior scale, but previous RTR O Gauge (in my experience) was either high-priced 'tinplate' (new) or high-priced Far East brass. With Dapol's 0-6-0s coming out (fully-finished) at around £200.00 and Heljan's forthcoming Gresley Pacifics fully-finished at around £700.00 (?), along with the same firm's diesels, then the O Gauge kit manufacturers (as in 4mm) will start feeling the pinch. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Tony Wright

[thegreenhowards]

Austerities.jpg

 

Another image from yesterday at Gifford Street. 

 

There's no doubt O Gauge has a 'presence' which cannot really be captured by anything smaller. That said, 'errors' are even more apparent - such as the erroneous air pump on BR-numbered Austerity on the left. Did any retain the equipment into BR days? I don't believe so. The one on the right was built/painted/weathered by Tony Geary as a commission for its owner. Tony is one of the foremost current builders. 

 

Chatting to many yesterday (and I've alluded to this before in the previous post), I think O Gauge is rapidly following the mainstream 4mm path with a growing dependence on RTR or having stuff built on commission. Perhaps the latter was always there in the senior scale, but previous RTR O Gauge (in my experience) was either high-priced 'tinplate' (new) or high-priced Far East brass. With Dapol's 0-6-0s coming out (fully-finished) at around £200.00 and Heljan's forthcoming Gresley Pacifics fully-finished at around £700.00 (?), along with the same firm's diesels, then the O Gauge kit manufacturers (as in 4mm) will start feeling the pinch.

 

Tony,

 

I don't think that your last point necessarily follows. Having a greater range of RTR in 'O' gauge may persuade some people to make the move 'upscale'. They then may provide more of a market for kit manufacturers and builders to fill in the inevitable missing gaps in their fleet. There will surely be many missing gaps for the foreseeable future.

 

Just leaving Kings Cross and look forward to seeing you later to continue this debate (and doubtless many others!).

 

Regards

 

Andy

[jwealleans]

Both the 7mm layout owners I operate for can only afford it because they build almost everything. I think the move towards RTR will take longer in that scale and for the moment they’re still well supplied with the bits and bobs you need to (kit/scratch)build and detail stock.

[glo41f]

"Chatting to many yesterday (and I've alluded to this before in the previous post), I think O Gauge is rapidly following the mainstream 4mm path with a growing dependence on RTR or having stuff built on commission. Perhaps the latter was always there in the senior scale, but previous RTR O Gauge (in my experience) was either high-priced 'tinplate' (new) or high-priced Far East brass. With Dapol's 0-6-0s coming out (fully-finished) at around £200.00 and Heljan's forthcoming Gresley Pacifics fully-finished at around £700.00 (?), along with the same firm's diesels, then the O Gauge kit manufacturers (as in 4mm) will start feeling the pinch. "

 

Tony

 

You have rather come to the same conclusion that many of us in 7mm have. Already the kit market is declining in the scale and I fully expect this to accelerate over the next few years. However, I remain to be persuaded that this is a bad thing overall. A lot of folk are turning to 7mm precisely because cheaper quality RTR items are now readily available and one does not have to be a Billy Wizz at construction. I strongly suspect that many of the Hattons forthcoming Gresley pacifics will rarely if ever turn a wheel on a layout being purchased because of other reasons. (Hand up as I have ordered one and no A4 ever worked regularly in Norfolk!). Your Black 5 really looks good and clearly your talents extend to other scales. I would love to have a LB type layout but it is not possible at this time. Sitting at the side of the railway watching the trains roll by is to be transported back to those days when the only cloud on the horizon was the nagging worry that ones Latin homework had not been fully completed! There is a series on Yout tube (German) Esienbahn Romantic where the theme of the layouts portrayed is often related to the "dream" and that is what you have achieved. By the way I wonder why in Germany particularly they are far more appreciative of railway modellers than we are in the UK?

 

Martin Long

[Tony Teague]

Tower Black Five.jpg

 

One 'made' thing I was re-acquainted with was this Tower/DJH Black Five in O Gauge. I built this in 2003/4 for review in BRM, and Ian Rathbone painted it. I'm glad to tell it's still going strong. I've built about five O Gauge locos and every 7mm modeller has told me that when one 'graduates' to the 'senior school', that's it; you never go back. I have, and I doubt if I'll ever build in the larger scale again (except for a wagon or two for a friend). It's just too big, and cannot possibly give me what I 'want'. That is what I have now in OO. Just imagine doing LB in O. Twice the length, twice the width, and 150 steam-outline locos, not to mention all the stock. If I won the lottery? Perhaps, but I don't know how to enter it. 

 

Tony

Hope you will forgive my self indulgence, but your post brought back a more recent memory for me, of photographing the same loco, which still exists on the GCR - in 2015.

 

 

Tony

[Lecorbusier]

sometimes you see the smoke/exhaust billowing white ... sometimes as here pretty black?  Why?

[Headstock]

sometimes you see the smoke/exhaust billowing white ... sometimes as here pretty black?  Why?

 

The locomotive is being driven badly to produce lots of crud for photographic purposes.