Wright writes.....

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I don't have a temperature controlled iron either. I have wondered whether I could run one from a light dimmer. An iron is a resistive load, much like a traditional tungsten bulb, so it should be ok.

 

Not really, and here I disagree with polybear.

 

A temperature controlled iron maintains its power (wattage) at allset  temperatures. A dimmer reduces the voltage and hence the power to the iron, which is counter productive. What you need is the power to melt the solder and cope with the heat dissipation through the work, while doing so at a specific temperature. A TCU does that, a power limited standard soldering iron doesn't.

[t-b-g]

I would have thought that anybody melting whitemetal kits with a temperature controlled iron either has a faulty one or has it set wrongly.

 

If I set my iron at 200 degrees and hold it on for a long time, it will just melt the types of whitemetal found in kits.

 

Set at 180 degrees, I cannot melt even the smallest components. For bigger lumps of metal I usually set it at 185 degrees.

 

There are plenty of temperature controlled irons available at sensible prices. If people want to rig up their own then good luck to them. I tried it once many years ago and it sort of worked but getting the right power/heat level for a particular task was very much guesswork and a bit too random for my liking. As has been said, you are in danger of reducing not just the temperature but the power too. You still need to get the metal and the solder hot, so really you need to lose the temperature but keep the power.  

[Chuffer Davies]

8 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

I've no experience with the Gibson ones, sorry.

They use 1mm  diameter  bolts if that’s any help? Ultrascale crankpins are better quality (in my personal opinion) and are a BA (16BA I think) equivalent of the 1mm diameter.  
Frank

[t-b-g]

12 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

They use 1mm  diameter  bolts if that’s any help? Ultrascale crankpins are better quality (in my personal opinion) and are a BA (16BA I think) equivalent of the 1mm diameter.  
Frank

 

I am fairly confident that they are 14BA rather than 16BA Frank. That is the nearest BA equivalent to a 1mm thread.

[rodent279]

8 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

I also put an iron through the cabside of a DJH E1. It was temperature controlled, but I'd forgotten to dial it down. I learned another thing that day - how to fill a big hole in white metal with low-melt solder. All part of life's rich tapestry!

How did you do it? Plug the hole as best you could, then take a file to it?

[Manxcat]

If you would like to try a new way of filling a hole accidentally made in a white metal casting you may be interested in some videos currently on you tube. All you need is some duct tape for the back of the hole, some baking soda and a tube of free flowing super glue. 

 

Search on you tube for Baking Soda and Super Glue and watch one of the videos entitled Pour Super Glue on Baking Soda.

 

If you watch the whole of one of these short videos you should not need any written instructions other than the fact that deeper holes need more than one application, a bit at a time. The result may be even stronger than the white metal and can be drilled.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Manxcat

[Barry Ten]

2 hours ago, rodent279 said:

How did you do it? Plug the hole as best you could, then take a file to it?

 

Yes, but the only way I've been able to do these repairs is to build up the solder a tiny blob at a time, so it's quite a slow process.

 

This is the offending cab sheet (the damage was near the top) after filing back smooth.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Barry Ten

[APOLLO]

Many years ago I "assembled" my BEC and GEM TT gauge white metal kits with Bostik. A bit on each seam / part, wait 15 mins and bingo !!  A "super glue" was Bostik back then.

 

They are still all in one piece though a bit worn and bashed, and nowt's fallen off  (not much to fall off anyway such was the level of detail back then) !!!!!!!

 

Brit15

[Barry Ten]

1 hour ago, Manxcat said:

If you would like to try a new way of filling a hole accidentally made in a white metal casting you may be interested in some videos currently on you tube. All you need is some duct tape for the back of the hole, some baking soda and a tube of free flowing super glue. 

 

Search on you tube for Baking Soda and Super Glue and watch one of the videos entitled Pour Super Glue on Baking Soda.

 

If you watch the whole of one of these short videos you should not need any written instructions other than the fact that deeper holes need more than one application, a bit at a time. The result may be even stronger than the white metal and can be drilled.

 

 

 

I've also seen videos of people fixing split gears using super glue and baking soda.

[Northmoor]

11 hours ago, rodent279 said:

My dad, despite being trained and qualified as a mechanical engineer (served his time in a railway workshops), spent most of his railway career as an electrical engineer, mainly involved in electrification. He was also a competent bricklayer and carpenter, to the extent that he built his own house extension. I wouldn't dare have a go at bricklaying!

Bemoan it if you like, but it just isn't as necessary in the modern world as it was.

My father did similar, a civil engineer through University (he scraped through, not a natural student) but taught himself building skills and converted a barn into a holiday home at our house in Wales.  I tried bricklaying once and after a few feet of wobbly topped wall, decided I WOULD pay for a professional.

 

As for the modern world not needing these skills, I think that assumption by the public in general (and the Department for Education in particular) will eventually bite us.  Because we don't have practical skills, we pay professionals to do everything for us.  Unfortunately, because "we" also consider our children to be too good to learn a trade* and should go to University, there are not enough professionals around with those skills.  The laws of supply and demand thus result in their day rates rising faster than those for professions and means that even the cowboys can earn a living, being employed by the desperate.  However, rather than accepting that a trade might be a good career, it will take the middle classes a long time to overcome their outrage that three years at Uni and £50,000 of student debt earns them significantly less than a skilled electrician.

 

For many years I worked for the defence research arm of the MoD.  We probably employed more masters degree and PhD-qualified scientists than anywhere outside academia.  It was common though to hear complaints about how bad their pay was - "I could earn more as a plumber".  I often thought if money was that important to them, why they didn't devote their intelligence to checking that out before opting to do a PhD?  These individuals seemed to assume there was a fixed relationship between qualifications, status and earnings.  They were wrong.

 

*How many MPs, of all parties, who talk up the value of apprenticeships, have children who have done an apprenticeship?

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I think most of the original kit instructions for white metal suggested the use of (the then new?) epoxies because of the risk of melting the castings.

DIdn't some really early ones recommend Pafra or Durofix? At least it wasn't the dreaded Seccotine.

[D-A-T]

Following a recommendation on here I bought one of these:

https://www.circuitspecialists.eu/csi-premier75w-digital-temperature-controlled-solder-station-with-75w-soldering-iron

Has a wide variety of tips to choose from and good spares back up if needed. I think it is excellent value for money.

I’ve since added a RSU to my armoury after seeing a great demonstration at an S4 North. Between them they cover most of my soldering. I also have a big 60 or 80 watt iron for large pieces of metal but I’ve only used it once.

I think I understand TW’s attitude towards glues but modern adhesives are so advanced these days as to be just as strong as soldering etc. The next time you fly to sunny climes on holiday just remember a lot of the aircraft you are on is glued together!

Edited December 2, 2022 by D-A-T
Tautology!

[Jesse Sim]

With my masters permission I’d like to post some things I’ve been working on….

 

First up, a rescue attempt in the shape of a DS Sheldon Crane. This came to me 75% complete, in EM, with no instructions and half the remaining parts missing from a deceased estate. I re-gauged the wheel set frames by eye, un-soldering and then re-soldering where I wanted them- my fingers were burnt to a crisp for a week. It was then a matter of working out what went where from photographs, thankfully Jonathan Wealleans sent me some photos of the instructions and I was able to piece everything together.  There are some parts missing and I had to scratchbuilt a couple of things but it’ll do. It certainly looks the part, especially with the scratchbuilt runner wagon next to her. The crane just needs a weather and she’s finished. 
 

 

The inside of the runner wagon has all kinds of bits and pieces, even coal to fire the crane itself. 
 

 

I picked up this DJH C2 over a year ago for about 100 quid, it was part completed with a motor and wheels. I finally got it running this afternoon, so I finished off some bits and pieces, mostly building the tender. Hopefully she’ll be getting finished off soon. It’s not as good as yours Tony, but she’ll do!!
 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Jesse Sim

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

DIdn't some really early ones recommend Pafra or Durofix? At least it wasn't the dreaded Seccotine.

They did John,

 

Those are names from the past!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Just a point about repairing holes in castings caused by clumsiness and/or too hot an iron............

 

If it's, say, a largish hole in a tender side or cab side, I solder a piece of shim brass to the rear, large enough to cover the hole with a bit of 'land' left around the 'behind' edges, the brass being pre-tinned with 145 degree solder first. 

 

I then 'puddle' low-melt on top of the brass, letting gravity level the fluid solder until its flush with the edge of the hole. Full levelling off can then be achieved by scraper/curved-blade knife/file. 

 

Just one point of note. Over time, low-melt shrinks slightly, so one can end up with a slight depression, though it's not too noticeable. I now leave a model a few months before it's painted, just in case any shrinkage manifests itself. 

[Bernard Lamb]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

DIdn't some really early ones recommend Pafra or Durofix? At least it wasn't the dreaded Seccotine.

In the back of my mind I associate Pafra with K's.

I also remember a GWR railcar kit where one side was 1/8" longer than the other.

I was pointed towards a product called Brummer's Stopping. Spelling might be wrong, but it wa sold as a wood filler and was very good if rather messy.

Bernard

[Michael Edge]

My first white metal kit (a K's Fowler 2-6-2T in 1966) was assembled with Araldite, the proper slow setting stuff, although I later discovered how to speed it up with a hairdryer or even putting it in the oven. Many years later I stripped the paint off it with Nitromors and found I had a nice clean kit again, all separate pieces in the sink. I built it again (though not on the original K's frames), this time welded together with a soldering iron at normal temperature - I've never used low melt solder for anything. It still runs regularly on Herculaneum Dock and Chapel en le Frith.

[Barry Ten]

4 hours ago, D-A-T said:

 The next time you fly to sunny climes on holiday just remember a lot of the aircraft you are on is glued together!

 

I saw a recent TV documentary where they showed how an elecric London bus is put together. The aluminium side sheets were all glued onto a sub-frame.

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Barry Ten

[Tony Teague]

5 hours ago, D-A-T said:

Following a recommendation on here I bought one of these:

https://www.circuitspecialists.eu/csi-premier75w-digital-temperature-controlled-solder-station-with-75w-soldering-iron

Has a wide variety of tips to choose from and good spares back up if needed. I think it is excellent value for money.

 

I too have one of these and can recommend.

[Tony Teague]

44 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

 

I saw a recent TV documentary where they showed how an elecric London bus is put together. The aluminium side sheets were all glued onto a sub-frame.

 

 

I saw that too.

I wonder how much nitro-mors it would take to make it fall apart?

[Barry Ten]

1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

 

I saw that too.

I wonder how much nitro-mors it would take to make it fall apart?

 

You'd need a bigger sink!

[Tony Wright]

I'm certainly not suggesting that glues (of all types) don't work, I'm only reporting on my own findings with regard to the glued-together metal loco kits I've come across. Almost without exception, bits drop off in handling; sometimes large, but usually small. 

 

Geoff Haynes has just finished painting a 3D-printed carriage for me. Now, obviously, that can't be soldered, but, in cleaning it up he told me he'd encountered something which has never happened before with all the models he's painted for me; that is something dropping off during the washing/cleaning process. In this case, the battery boxes; I'd fixed them in place with superglue (obviously, not very well!). 

[gr.king]

On 01/12/2022 at 10:34, rodent279 said:

I don't have a temperature controlled iron either. I have wondered whether I could run one from a light dimmer. An iron is a resistive load, much like a traditional tungsten bulb, so it should be ok.

 

On 01/12/2022 at 11:52, polybear said:

...

Yes you can, quite safely.  But:

Most traditional dimmer switches need to drive a minimum load of 40W, so if the iron is lower than this then this then the dimmer has to supply a small lamp (ideally with a 40W incandescent bulb fitted) at the same time in order to get the load up.

The iron does of course have to be a basic resistive jobbie (such as a basic Antex etc.) with no added electronics involved.

 

It was a common method many years ago, but solder stations have become so cheap in recent years it really isn't worth the bother anymore.  However, if you already have such a station but the iron isn't powerful enough for a particularly large job then it could be useful for controlling an iron that's the size of a poker....

 

 

On 01/12/2022 at 11:01, MikeParkin65 said:

Are you electrically qualified? Sounds a potentially dangerous bodge to me - decent temp controlled irons start around the £80 mark. 

 

Here's where practical application / experience trumps sceptical theory. For 20+ years I have used 25 watt irons wired through two different models of standard household lighting-dimmer switch ( both dimmers from B & Q, bought years apart) both for 73C solder for white metal and for 145C solder on etched parts, cleaning the bit when switching solders of course. I haven't had to use a light bulb or other ballast resistor in order to get the power reduction by the dimmer switch to work. I established the typical best settings on the dimmer dial by trial and error. I do not dispute that the temperature recovery time of the iron is longer after soldering a joint than it perhaps would be with a posh proprietary temperature-controlled outfit, and the ability to continue to supply heat at the pre-set temperature into a larger joint isn't present of course, but that hasn't stopped me from getting results. I don't seem to have electrocuted myself or others, blown any fuses, or burned the house down either, in fact I'm sure I haven't done any of those things. That's not because I have a nanny-state prescribed piece of paper to say that I was electrically competent on the particular day of an official test, it's because I listened when mains electricity was covered in 1970s secondary school physics lessons up to A-Level, I have since continued to watch and listen to those who demonstrate things like correct plug-wiring, and I still apply care and common sense.

Edited December 3, 2022 by gr.king
Clarification

[D-A-T]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm certainly not suggesting that glues (of all types) don't work, I'm only reporting on my own findings with regard to the glued-together metal loco kits I've come across. Almost without exception, bits drop off in handling; sometimes large, but usually small. 

 

Geoff Haynes has just finished painting a 3D-printed carriage for me. Now, obviously, that can't be soldered, but, in cleaning it up he told me he'd encountered something which has never happened before with all the models he's painted for me; that is something dropping off during the washing/cleaning process. In this case, the battery boxes; I'd fixed them in place with superglue (obviously, not very well!). 

Gorilla Glue Clear Superglue is the current favoured Superglue for resin, not Loctite or similar. But Epoxy Resin is still the preferred choice by many. Obviously it takes a lot longer to cure but has a higher sheer/structural strength than Superglue. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by D-A-T
Clarification

[Willie Whizz]

My experience of soldering for kit-building is rather limited, and I only once built a whole loco, many years ago now. One aspect I found (and still find on other projects) especially challenging was keeping parts in the correct position while the solder was applied, which given their weight but small size was far from simple unless one had three hands with asbestos fingers …

 

Using tape or blu-tac doesn’t seem to help much, and “helping hands” gadgets don’t give the fine adjustment needed. So this present discussion prompts me to ask what may or may not be a naive question:  is it feasible to use small amounts of modern glue-type adhesives to “tack” parts into position first, and then apply solder to make the permanent joint?