Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

Have you ever built any of them with the bars which can be lifted and secured across the exits at both ends in the closed position? I don't think I've ever seen a RTR brake van with that feature. It would probably add to the cost and could be fragile if a scale diameter bar was used made from plastic. I cannot imagine that any of the RTR manufacturers would want to include a moveable one which could be secured in either position.

 

Archie

No, Archie, I haven't.

 

The Dapol O Gauge one has them, though. All four!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

I w

 

 

Tony,

 

I would be interested to see how the handrails compare to the O gauge model from Dapol. Going by the two photographs, the OO version looks to be at least the same size as the O gauge if not larger. I would say that they are double the size that they should be, that's massive. Surely brass or other wire would be a more appropriate material than bendy plastic? A quick look around the internet provides plenty of examples of this model were the hand rails are as straight as a nine bob note.

 

I think that it is diplorable that they replicate the exact same model from the same company. Another three models crossed off from the Parkside catalogue in the last couple of months, yet if you are an LMS modeler for example, not much joy from the RTR manufactures. A somewhat bizarre situation given the size of the LMS wagon fleet. Is it a coincidence that LMS models are also thin on the ground in the Parkside catalogue? It seems to me that R & D 101 for the RTR manufactures is google Parkside.

Andrew,

 

I think it's the stark white of the handrails which makes them appear larger than they really are. 

 

If this little model comes back to me, one of the first thing I'll do (after chucking away the tension-locks) is to weather it. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[31A]

 

 

I think that it is diplorable that they replicate the exact same model from the same company. Another three models crossed off from the Parkside catalogue in the last couple of months, yet if you are an LMS modeler for example, not much joy from the RTR manufactures. A somewhat bizarre situation given the size of the LMS wagon fleet. Is it a coincidence that LMS models are also thin on the ground in the Parkside catalogue? It seems to me that R & D 101 for the RTR manufactures is google Parkside.

 

 

Since Hornby have (or will have, when the wooden lookout version also comes out) introduced models of the brake vans most widely used throughout the LNER and ex LNER system from the early grouping years until the early Diesel period, I don't really know what other kind of brake vans they might be expected to produce for the "Eastern" market.  Any pre-Grouping designs were much more geographically restricted, and disappeared quite soon after nationalisation.  Rather than being 'deplorable' I think it's more a case of Parkside and more recently Hornby coming to the same conclusion as to what will sell well.  I say that having made three vans from Parkside kits, but looking forward to buying at least one Hornby wooden lookout version and not having to replace the feeble step boards with brass ones, and hold my breath whilst wielding a soldering iron in close proximity to the plastic sides to produce the handrails!

[Headstock]

Since Hornby have (or will have, when the wooden lookout version also comes out) introduced models of the brake vans most widely used throughout the LNER and ex LNER system from the early grouping years until the early Diesel period, I don't really know what other kind of brake vans they might be expected to produce for the "Eastern" market.  Any pre-Grouping designs were much more geographically restricted, and disappeared quite soon after nationalisation.  Rather than being 'deplorable' I think it's more a case of Parkside and more recently Hornby coming to the same conclusion as to what will sell well.  I say that having made three vans from Parkside kits, but looking forward to buying at least one Hornby wooden lookout version and not having to replace the feeble step boards with brass ones, and hold my breath whilst wielding a soldering iron in close proximity to the plastic sides to produce the handrails!

 

Evening Steve,

 

They could have produced a Toad D, nobody dose one RTR or the NER progenitor of the Toad B. I would add that Pre grouping types were not geographically restricted and did not disappear soon after Nationalization, except on model railways. I am in favor or more variety in rolling stock not more replication. For example, why more 1922 RCH mineral wagons from one manufacturer, replicating a type already available from another? The 1905 RCH design would have provided more variety. Also, it was a type that was more common than the 1922 design through most of the time that they were in service.

 

Edit to add The Toad D is also almost impossible to get hold of as a kit.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Headstock

[Hollar]

I've looked at your observations, Tone, and thanks for making them. 

 

The 7mm model's handrails might have become distorted in the packaging.

 

In every picture and drawing I've consulted (Larkin, Tatlow, numerous books, my own pictures), all the LNER 'Toads' have no windows in the end doors and two windows either side - just like the Hornby model. 

 

Where are the safety loops on the brake rigging (wear? - worn out?)? Good question. Missing, but that's the case with most RTR (and kit-built) models. Some Bachmann RTR wagons have them, but it makes changing the wheels difficult.

 

Moulded lamp brackets? I just put lamps on brakes with a tiny dab of superglue. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

I didnb't do thorough research, but I think the later LNER Toads had twin-pane doors and there are pictures on the Bartlett site which support this. 

 

The distortion on the handrails indicates that they are probably made of the same bendy plastic used by Hornby and Bachmann for their 4mm vans.  I've found that as week as being fundamentally too fat (like some of us) they distort much too easily and I always replace them with .4mm nickel wire. 

 

If we are talking about finescale modelling, I think the lack of brake safety loops is the wagon equivalent of wonky reversing links or plastic coal on a loco.  When changing wheels, if you are deft you can make a single sip just above the axles and then just spring the new wheels through the gap.  For the rest of us, it's amazing the huge gap you can clip out without either destabilising the  wire "loops" or  making it noticeable on a wagon on the rails.  I wouldn't have mentioned it at all, but in a 7mm wagon the loops are surely necessary.

 

And finally, the moulded lamp irons just make the model look second-rate, in 7mm that is.

 

And really finally, a picture of a hardworking British brake van - can't remember if the core is Hornby or Bachmann.  And it needs better lamp irons, too.

 

Tone

[31A]

Hi Andrew,

 

I was particularly thinking of brake vans, rather than other goods wagons.

 

An LNER Toad D is easy enough surely, using the Airfix (now Dapol) kit?  Here's one I made earlier - about 40 years ago, with a Parkside Toad B I finished in 1995:

 

 

I believe Bachmann have also done the Toad D RTR (?) although I've not bought one as I'm not keen on trenches where there should be plank join lines.

 

From photos I've seen, I get the impression that not many pre-Grouping ex LNER brake vans remained in 'traffic' use by the end of the 1950s - I presume the influx of BR Standard vans would have seen them off, apart from some in Engineers' use?

 

I also meant to say earlier, I don't think Hornby and Parkside serve the same markets.  Whereas we on here may well decry the duplication I think a large number of railway modellers never think of building rolling stock kits.  I enjoy putting together Parkside kits as relaxation (even if I do have to use soldering irons on plastic kits!), but a couple of my friends, although quite decent layout builders, would never do it.  One ( a 'transition' era modeller) said he tried one once but it didn't run very well.  The other (Diesel & Electric) modeller wanted air braked 'Vanwides" and I pointed out Parkside make one.  He tried it but struggled with painting and transfers.  Yet both are keen and talented railway modellers.

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to start an argument, but am pleased to see the Hornby LNER brake vans.

[Hollar]

I didnb't do thorough research, but I think the later LNER Toads had twin-pane doors and there are pictures on the Bartlett site which support this. 

 

The distortion on the handrails indicates that they are probably made of the same bendy plastic used by Hornby and Bachmann for their 4mm vans.  I've found that as week as being fundamentally too fat (like some of us) they distort much too easily and I always replace them with .4mm nickel wire. 

 

If we are talking about finescale modelling, I think the lack of brake safety loops is the wagon equivalent of wonky reversing links or plastic coal on a loco.  When changing wheels, if you are deft you can make a single sip just above the axles and then just spring the new wheels through the gap.  For the rest of us, it's amazing the huge gap you can clip out without either destabilising the  wire "loops" or  making it noticeable on a wagon on the rails.  I wouldn't have mentioned it at all, but in a 7mm wagon the loops are surely necessary.

 

And finally, the moulded lamp irons just make the model look second-rate, in 7mm that is.

 

And really finally, a picture of a hardworking British brake van - can't remember if the core is Hornby or Bachmann.  And it needs better lamp irons, too.

 

Tone

And speaking of interiors - this was what happened to one year's Airfix Christmas quickie.  Some handy newspaper were added before the roof was clipped on.  I like a brake van, as youv'e probably gathered.

[Clem]

The Parkside vans do scrub-up (down?) quite well. But (with a certain amount of resignation), I suppose I'll cave in and try one of the Hornby ones too. At least you can improve them with nickel silver handrails..... And anyway, you can never have enough brake vans, can you? :-)

 

[Headstock]

Hi Andrew,

 

I was particularly thinking of brake vans, rather than other goods wagons.

 

An LNER Toad D is easy enough surely, using the Airfix (now Dapol) kit?  Here's one I made earlier - about 40 years ago, with a Parkside Toad B I finished in 1995:

 

P1020936.jpg

 

I believe Bachmann have also done the Toad D RTR (?) although I've not bought one as I'm not keen on trenches where there should be plank join lines.

 

From photos I've seen, I get the impression that not many pre-Grouping ex LNER brake vans remained in 'traffic' use by the end of the 1950s - I presume the influx of BR Standard vans would have seen them off, apart from some in Engineers' use?

 

I also meant to say earlier, I don't think Hornby and Parkside serve the same markets.  Whereas we on here may well decry the duplication I think a large number of railway modellers never think of building rolling stock kits.  I enjoy putting together Parkside kits as relaxation (even if I do have to use soldering irons on plastic kits!), but a couple of my friends, although quite decent layout builders, would never do it.  One ( a 'transition' era modeller) said he tried one once but it didn't run very well.  The other (Diesel & Electric) modeller wanted air braked 'Vanwides" and I pointed out Parkside make one.  He tried it but struggled with painting and transfers.  Yet both are keen and talented railway modellers.

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to start an argument, but am pleased to see the Hornby LNER brake vans.

 

Steve,

 

the grab handles on your Toad B look much better than the Hornby version. The Bachmann model is a BR brake van pretending to be a late build Toad D. All they have done is fit shorter stepboards, nothing has been done as regards the other differences such as the door, the ventilators, the grab handles, the lamp brackets and the platform and the lack of underframe trussing on the pre war examples etc. There is enough variations to produce quite different pre war and later builds

 

I agree with you as regards the planking, though wagons that generally used tongue and grove construction don't always scale very well in 4 mm and end up looking like plywood. Sometimes a little over emphasis is required. That said, the Bachman brake van has gaps in the planking you could get your hand in, Hornby are just as bad with some of their modern NPV's in this respect. I can't find the dimensions at the moment but I recall the the grab handles scale to about 0.2 or 0.25 mm in 4 mm scale, not very practical, 0.3 seems to be a workable compromise for most.

[Headstock]

The Parkside vans do scrub-up (down?) quite well. But (with a certain amount of resignation), I suppose I'll cave in and try one of the Hornby ones too. At least you can improve them with nickel silver handrails..... And anyway, you can never have enough brake vans, can you? :-)

 

Evening Clem,

 

a Craftsmanship clever from me, very smart handrails, also it is nice to see the safety thingamabobs in the up position. I've had a go at this myself, they look a lot better up, especially when the brake van is in motion.

[Tony Wright]

Well, for no more than a (short) evening's work, this is what I've done to the latest Hornby brake van.

 

 

Chuck away the couplings, replace them with three-links, add a rear lamp (a bit chunky), paint the gels of the lamps, weather it (dry-brush) and install a guard. 

 

I think it's entirely adequate as a 'layout van' on LB. It's good enough for me. 

 

What do these cost? Just over £20.00? 

[Headstock]

Well, for no more than a (short) evening's work, this is what I've done to the latest Hornby brake van.

 

Hornby BR (ex-LNER) Toad brake van weathered.jpg

 

Chuck away the couplings, replace them with three-links, add a rear lamp (a bit chunky), paint the gels of the lamps, weather it (dry-brush) and install a guard. 

 

I think it's entirely adequate as a 'layout van' on LB. It's good enough for me. 

 

What do these cost? Just over £20.00? 

 

Tony,

 

Ilike your point rodding.

[31A]

Steve,

 

the grab handles on your Toad B look much better than the Hornby version. ds

 

 

 

 

Thank you; I can't remember what I used now.  In the early days I used soft iron florists wire stretched straight (no wonder I found it difficult to solder!) but by the time I made that one I suspect it was brass wire.  For some reason I lost interest in that model during construction, and it sat on the shelf for years, to be finished eventually in 1995!

 

The planking on the Bachmann "Toad D" was enough to put me off when I was about to buy one once; I put it down again without looking any further at it and didn't really notice the other things you mention!  For the same reason haven't bought any of their BR Brake Vans.  I think the over emphasised planking on certain models looks worse when the planks being depicted are narrower than usual - I also found the more recent Bachmann A Type container disappointing in that respect.

[Bonafide]

Chuck away the couplings, replace them with three-links, add a rear lamp (a bit chunky), paint the gels of the lamps, weather it (dry-brush) and install a guard. 

 

I think it's entirely adequate as a 'layout van' on LB. It's good enough for me. 

 

 

It was rare, if ever, for brake vans in service to be seen without the safety bars in position across the openings of the verandas.

 

The guard here, leaning back against the bulkhead, appears not even to be holding on to anything.  

[Clem]

Evening Tony, Andrew, Steve et al,

 

Is this what you call a brake van special?

 

Tony, I do like your humans. As good as I've ever seen. (visually that is... I don't know what they're like morally) .    

 

I didn't know the Hornby vans were out yet. But that's a lovely weathering job.

 

Anyway - a couple more vans... The first a Bachmann which I obviously haven't yet bothered to finish (sheepishly, I must admit I've only just realised it - I must revisit this one! ) and the second an old Airfix kit converted to Toad D by cutting off the concrete platform.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

It was rare, if ever, for brake vans in service to be seen without the safety bars in position across the openings of the verandas.

 

The guard here, leaning back against the bulkhead, appears not even to be holding on to anything.  

He's just got on, and the train's stationary. Not only that, he's firmly superglued in place, so can't fall out!

 

In the light of what you say, I reckon that over 99% of brake vans running on layouts are contravening regulations.

 

Anyway, I've just looked at a picture of one of the BR-built vans in service I took some years ago at Lincoln, and only one safety bar is in use. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

Evening Tony, Andrew, Steve et al,

 

Is this what you call a brake van special?

 

Tony, I do like your humans. As good as I've ever seen. (visually that is... I don't know what they're like morally) .    

 

I didn't know the Hornby vans were out yet. But that's a lovely weathering job.

 

Anyway - a couple more vans... The first a Bachmann which I obviously haven't yet bothered to finish (sheepishly, I must admit I've only just realised it - I must revisit this one! ) and the second an old Airfix kit converted to Toad D by cutting off the concrete platform.

Lovely work, Clem,

 

Thanks for posting these images.

 

All the figures on the layout have been provided by several friends, all as donations. I'm very lucky.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[St Enodoc]

I don't know whether I'd call the handrails 'massively' over-scale, Andrew. I don't think they're really too wobbly, either. Not all prototype pictures show handrails dead straight. 

 

As to an incentive (I assume that's what you mean) to buy one, to me the incentive to buy an equivalent kit is twofold. One, you'll have made it yourself (much more satisfactory), and, two, it'll probably be cheaper. 

 

Whether it's 'deplorable' that RTR manufacturers produce the same thing as kit manufacturers (and not just in wagon kits) is a moot point. Though (as is well-known), my preference is for building things, I cannot deplore any RTR manufacturer for making things which he/she thinks will sell well. 

 

I've taken on board the criticisms made about these vans, but, all in all, I think they're both quite good. I must admit to not making many brake vans, and I've never taken the trouble to include a stove and handbrake wheel in their interiors. Hornby has! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Interesting point buried in there Tony. I wonder why RTR locos are cheaper than kits whereas the converse is true for wagons?

[Jesse Sim]

Morning Tony, I received the care package last Friday, I've been so busy, thank you ever so much. The photos look wonderful and thanks for the bolts and tender wheels.

 

Hope you and Mo are adjusted back into normal time zone. 

 

Jesse 

[31A]

This Toad E is built from the recent Parkside kit.  I've never been able to make the loops in the ends of the safety bars or at least not four all the same (perhaps scope for an etching?) so I content myself with straight wires across the openings.  I think I used the 0.45mm brass wire that came with the kit for the handrails on this one, but would probably use 0.33mm if I were to do it again - they do look a bit heavy!  I did make new stepboards, from milled brass angle.

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by 31A

[Andy Hayter]

Interesting point buried in there Tony. I wonder why RTR locos are cheaper than kits whereas the converse is true for wagons?

 

But are wagon kits actually cheaper?

 

With many if they have wheels, you will want to replace them with metal tyred ones - add £2.  Plus bearings - add £0.50  (OK your kit is now a higher standard than many rtr offerings)

If they have couplings, you might want to change those too - another pound.

What about those plastic buffers - probably not strictly necessary if you use rtr type couplings but some are really crude.  At the least you might want to replace the heads with metal ones.

Glue - not a lot until you need to replace the bottle.

Then there is paint - at least greys and browns are less particular than locomotive greens, maroons etc, but not as forgiving as loco black.  You might get away with a near enough shade from your box of paints, but you might also want to buy the "correct" shade.

Then the transfers - probably 50p per wagon

Then varnish.

 

The cost difference between a kit and rtr wagon is narrowed considerably.  

[Bonafide]

This Toad E is built from the recent Parkside kit.  I've never been able to make the loops in the ends of the safety bars or at least not four all the same (perhaps scope for an etching?) so I content myself with straight wires across the openings.  I think I used the 0.45mm brass wire that came with the kit for the handrails on this one, but would probably use 0.33mm if I were to do it again - they do look a bit heavy!  I did make new stepboards, from milled brass angle.

 

P1020529.jpg

 

That's a very good looking model.  Having the safety bars in the horizontal position makes a brake van look so much better when it is in service.

 

The repainted planks above the ducket and the two full length ones is a nice touch and adds interest, as does the repainted brackets at the lower corners. 

[Tom F]

Just echoing Bonafide, Steve that looks excellent.

 

You’ve also made me decide to do the same as you and add wire across! Looks good to me!

 

Oh and I love the repainted planks (something else I might have to copy, sorry!!)

[St Enodoc]

But are wagon kits actually cheaper?

 

With many if they have wheels, you will want to replace them with metal tyred ones - add £2.  Plus bearings - add £0.50  (OK your kit is now a higher standard than many rtr offerings)

If they have couplings, you might want to change those too - another pound.

What about those plastic buffers - probably not strictly necessary if you use rtr type couplings but some are really crude.  At the least you might want to replace the heads with metal ones.

Glue - not a lot until you need to replace the bottle.

Then there is paint - at least greys and browns are less particular than locomotive greens, maroons etc, but not as forgiving as loco black.  You might get away with a near enough shade from your box of paints, but you might also want to buy the "correct" shade.

Then the transfers - probably 50p per wagon

Then varnish.

 

The cost difference between a kit and rtr wagon is narrowed considerably.  

Hornby R6834 Toad E GBP 21.99 before discounts.

 

Parkside PC89 Toad E GBP 14.35 before discounts.

 

Metal wheels and bearings are included in the kit.

 

Couplings need changing in both cases as far as I am concerned (I use DGs).

 

No need to change bufers as far as I am concerned but if you did then MJT heads are typically GBP 9.00 for 20 so GBP 1.80 per wagon.

 

Glue/paint/varnish - irrelevant really as I have these in stock. For the sake of argument say 50p in total.

 

Modelmaster transfers MMPC89 GBP 2.63 for three wagons so 88p each.

 

Time - not costed as it is part of enjoying the hobby.

 

Overall cost of the finished kit is therefore GBP 17.53.

 

As Tony has pointed out many times, to buy, build and finish a loco kit will cost about twice the price of the equivalent RTR model.

[Beechnut]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-23rd-october/?p=3340931

 

Brendan