Wright writes.....

[Clem]

This Toad E is built from the recent Parkside kit.  I've never been able to make the loops in the ends of the safety bars or at least not four all the same (perhaps scope for an etching?) so I content myself with straight wires across the openings.  I think I used the 0.45mm brass wire that came with the kit for the handrails on this one, but would probably use 0.33mm if I were to do it again - they do look a bit heavy!  I did make new stepboards, from milled brass angle.

 

P1020529.jpg

 

Hi Steve, The trick with the safety bars is to make an elongated 'U' in 0.3mm by forming it around 0.45mm wire with your thin nosed pliers. The safety bars were/are wider than grab-rails and I use 0.45mm wire for the bars. The top part of the 'U' is lightly cramped against the end of the 0.45 wire. Then it's a simple job of dabbing a touch of solder on it and Bob's your uncle. It's more fiddly trying to get the holding loop in the brake van itself, though. I used to drill a couple of 0.3mm holes and try and fit a small loop at the corner of the window but lately I've found that a single hole will do if the the holding loop is formed of a 'U' with one long leg and the other butted up against the brake van, secured with tiny drop of that hot rocket stuff.

 

I always start off doing a brake van with great enthusiasm and end up just being relieved that it's over when it's complete, though. :-)  They certainly do have their fiddly moments.

[31A]

Hi Steve, The trick with the safety bars is to make an elongated 'U' in 0.3mm by forming it around 0.45mm wire with your thin nosed pliers. The safety bars were/are wider than grab-rails and I use 0.45mm wire for the bars. The top part of the 'U' is lightly cramped against the end of the 0.45 wire. Then it's a simple job of dabbing a touch of solder on it and Bob's your uncle. It's more fiddly trying to get the holding loop in the brake van itself, though. I used to drill a couple of 0.3mm holes and try and fit a small loop at the corner of the window but lately I've found that a single hole will do if the the holding loop is formed of a 'U' with one long leg and the other butted up against the brake van, secured with tiny drop of that hot rocket stuff.

 

I always start off doing a brake van with great enthusiasm and end up just being relieved that it's over when it's complete, though. :-)  They certainly do have their fiddly moments.

 

Thanks Clem, I'll give it another go if I ever build another brake van!  You make it sound so easy ....

Just echoing Bonafide, Steve that looks excellent.

 

You’ve also made me decide to do the same as you and add wire across! Looks good to me!

 

Oh and I love the repainted planks (something else I might have to copy, sorry!!)

 

Copy away, Tom!

[queensquare]

As it seems to be brake van season I thought I would add a couple I have completed recently - plus a loco. 

 

Bulldog No62 is a John Greenwood scratchbuild originally built to N gauge. I've rebuilt it to 2FS, fitted a Faulhauber motor, CT chip and touched up the paintwork where I removed the BR insignia. I've been running the loco for a while in plain black but whilst doing a guest demo at the excellent 3mm do in Ilton  a few weeks ago my good friend Mike Corp gave me some SDJR 3mm transfers produced by the HMRC. They are consequently a tad big but I think they look ok and certainly a lot better than my hand painted efforts.

The brace of ballast brake vans utilise laser cut bits courtesy of Nick Bastable with the underframes cobbled together from Association bits.

 

The SDJR 20T van uses more laser cut bits for the body with an etched 6 wheel chassis drawn up for me by Bob Jones.

 

Jerry

Edited October 24, 2018 by queensquare

[Compound2632]

But are wagon kits actually cheaper?

 

With many if they have wheels, you will want to replace them with metal tyred ones - add £2.  Plus bearings - add £0.50  (OK your kit is now a higher standard than many rtr offerings)

If they have couplings, you might want to change those too - another pound.

What about those plastic buffers - probably not strictly necessary if you use rtr type couplings but some are really crude.  At the least you might want to replace the heads with metal ones.

Glue - not a lot until you need to replace the bottle.

Then there is paint - at least greys and browns are less particular than locomotive greens, maroons etc, but not as forgiving as loco black.  You might get away with a near enough shade from your box of paints, but you might also want to buy the "correct" shade.

Then the transfers - probably 50p per wagon

Then varnish.

 

The cost difference between a kit and rtr wagon is narrowed considerably.  

 

Surely the relevant question is: which is more fun?

[gr.king]

This Toad E is built from the recent Parkside kit.  I've never been able to make the loops in the ends of the safety bars or at least not four all the same (perhaps scope for an etching?) so I content myself with straight wires across the openings.  I think I used the 0.45mm brass wire that came with the kit for the handrails on this one, but would probably use 0.33mm if I were to do it again - they do look a bit heavy!  I did make new stepboards, from milled brass angle.

 

P1020529.jpg

Whilst I accept that 0.45mm wire will be just a little over-scale in appearance for some handrails, especially if painted heavily, I think that when used with care that size is perfectly acceptable and I've settled on 0.45mm as the minimum size for various practical reasons. I find that anything thinner bends and distorts too easily which isn't a good thing if you want to create rails that look straight and stay looking straight. It occurs to me that ultra fine rails sometimes just make any handrail knobs used look further over-scale than they really are, and the wire can be a slack fit in them. Drill bits under 0.5mm diameter are frighteningly easy to break and are not cheap to repeatedly replace - they are a real nuisance if they break off deep in the hole too. Also, drill bits under 0.5mm won't fit securely in anything but a fairly new, un-abused chuck, unless you buy bits with a wider shank. Finally, if you are trying to solder up T-joints in brake van handrails it's tricky enough to create a true, flush, neat, strong joint when using 0.45mm wire - if you go down to 0.33mm you lose over 45% of the area of the square-cut end of the wire, making any attempt to produce a good joint even more challenging.

[Tony Wright]

But are wagon kits actually cheaper?

 

With many if they have wheels, you will want to replace them with metal tyred ones - add £2.  Plus bearings - add £0.50  (OK your kit is now a higher standard than many rtr offerings)

If they have couplings, you might want to change those too - another pound.

What about those plastic buffers - probably not strictly necessary if you use rtr type couplings but some are really crude.  At the least you might want to replace the heads with metal ones.

Glue - not a lot until you need to replace the bottle.

Then there is paint - at least greys and browns are less particular than locomotive greens, maroons etc, but not as forgiving as loco black.  You might get away with a near enough shade from your box of paints, but you might also want to buy the "correct" shade.

Then the transfers - probably 50p per wagon

Then varnish.

 

The cost difference between a kit and rtr wagon is narrowed considerably.  

I think you're right in the main, Andy,

 

But, I replace most RTR rolling stock wheels, anyway, plus couplings. 

 

I also repaint/renumber/weather them as well, so the cost of materials/transfers is the same. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

This Toad E is built from the recent Parkside kit.  I've never been able to make the loops in the ends of the safety bars or at least not four all the same (perhaps scope for an etching?) so I content myself with straight wires across the openings.  I think I used the 0.45mm brass wire that came with the kit for the handrails on this one, but would probably use 0.33mm if I were to do it again - they do look a bit heavy!  I did make new stepboards, from milled brass angle.

 

P1020529.jpg

What a great-looking van Steve, but tension-lock couplings?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Many thanks for all the recent comments and pictures of brake vans. Most interesting.....................

 

I looked at a selection of LB's various vans and thought, 'why not take some pictures?'

 

Since I've not made nor modified any of these (apart from the last one - the Hornby brake), I cannot comment on their origins, but they're the work (as far as I can recall) of Rob Davey, John Houlden and the late Pete Lander.

 

Some have track-cleaning pads fitted and if some of the lamp positions are wrong, my apologies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some are modified RTR and some are kits, either plastic or etched.

 

And finally..................

 

 

This is the brand new Hornby Toad in service on Little Bytham. As mentioned, as a 'layout piece of rolling stock', I think it's just fine. And, it's the only 'van I've got which has some of my work in it.

 

 

[jwealleans]

What you could do with, Tony, are a couple of ex-GN relics:

 

 

 

I reckon there were still a few of these kicking about as late as 1958. The 8 wheeler you might struggle to find other than second hand now, but the 6 wheeler is from a fairly recent batch Dan did.

Edited October 24, 2018 by jwealleans

[PMP]

I'm almost certain that the current Parkside Peco wagons now come with waterslide transfers included, just as the 7mm kits do.

[31A]

Whilst I accept that 0.45mm wire will be just a little over-scale in appearance for some handrails, especially if painted heavily, I think that when used with care that size is perfectly acceptable and I've settled on 0.45mm as the minimum size for various practical reasons. I find that anything thinner bends and distorts too easily which isn't a good thing if you want to create rails that look straight and stay looking straight. It occurs to me that ultra fine rails sometimes just make any handrail knobs used look further over-scale than they really are, and the wire can be a slack fit in them. Drill bits under 0.5mm diameter are frighteningly easy to break and are not cheap to repeatedly replace - they are a real nuisance if they break off deep in the hole too. Also, drill bits under 0.5mm won't fit securely in anything but a fairly new, un-abused chuck, unless you buy bits with a wider shank. Finally, if you are trying to solder up T-joints in brake van handrails it's tricky enough to create a true, flush, neat, strong joint when using 0.45mm wire - if you go down to 0.33mm you lose over 45% of the area of the square-cut end of the wire, making any attempt to produce a good joint even more challenging.

 

 

I agree entirely with all the reasons you've given!  Especially the rigidity, and difficulty of drilling holes smaller than 0.5mm.

 

I have got round the difficulty of holding smaller bits in the chuck by first threading the bit into a piece of wire insulation (say an offcut of 'layout wire'), and then putting them into the chuck, which then seems to grip firmly enough to at least drill into plastic.  Not sure whether it stops them breaking, though!

 

I have recently however used 0.33mmm wire for some handrails on rolling stock models, and found it to be more rigid than I expected, and looked better.  This included the T-shaped handrails either side of the Guard's door on LNER passenger coaches, which are quite long.

 

I've been lucky enough to be involved with the LNER Society's activities at the NRM, helping to catalogue their drawings archive and in one session we were going through the Doncaster C&W Drawings collection.  Some drawings in this gave the dimensions for grab rails, unfortunately I can't remember what that dimension was (and neither did I take a photo of a relevant drawing) but I remember thinking at the time that it equated more or less to 0.33mm wire in 4mm scale.

[31A]

What a great-looking van Steve, but tension-lock couplings?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Thank you, Tony.

 

I think I may have mentioned before, on my layout goods trains arrive, are shunted by a shunting engine, and depart again in different formation; some of this involves coupling and uncoupling in places where it would be impossible to reach to manage 3-link couplings, even if the propelling moves involved could be made to work reliably enough, therefore I'm afraid tension lock couplings are a compromise I have to accept in the interests of reliability.  If I'd realised that I was going to post the photo on your thread, I'd've unshipped the coupling first!

 

You may have noticed, in the other picture I posted the van has Peco couplings with the dropper cut off, and I have said many times elsewhere I think this is the best form of auto coupling for British stock.  I used it when I modelled the LNER in the 1930s, but sadly the "NEM" fittings on modern RTR stock have led me to adopt the tension lock these days for my BR period stock.

 

I like the vans in your other post, but sorry to see the ancient Bachmann (Mainline?) short ER van behind the J6, with its grossly distorted body (too long for a Toad D and too short for a Toad E); this sort of thing may have been OK for train sets in the 1970s when it was introduced but surely has no place on a modern scale layout.  Thank goodness Hornby have at last produced a decent model of this type of van!

[jwealleans]

sorry to see the ancient Bachmann (Mainline?) short ER van behind the J6, with its grossly distorted body (too long for a Toad D and too short for a Toad E)

In the spirit of Mr. King's Margate conversions, though, you can take the 'no use for anything' body, cut it down slightly, add a suitable ducket (Dave Geen) and make a passable NER V4 van.

 

 

 

I think Hattons were doing the bodies for a quid when I bought mine.

[PMP]

Brake van WIP from me, foreground left is the Oxford Rail GW brake van modified with steel end panels, rather than the planks as supplied, foreground right a Mainline GW brake with an etched chassis and handrails removed. Started well before Hornby’s current excellent version, so one day it’ll be finished! Background are three Parkside’s the two LNER built for review, and the LMS built as through piped. The LMS and Mainline versions were started before their RTR equivalents were released, I subsequently finished the LMS van, and rather than discard the GW Mainline one, I’ll complete it, as I’ll still learn and get something out of the project.

[Mallard60022]

Hi Steve, The trick with the safety bars is to make an elongated 'U' in 0.3mm by forming it around 0.45mm wire with your thin nosed pliers. The safety bars were/are wider than grab-rails and I use 0.45mm wire for the bars. The top part of the 'U' is lightly cramped against the end of the 0.45 wire. Then it's a simple job of dabbing a touch of solder on it and Bob's your uncle. It's more fiddly trying to get the holding loop in the brake van itself, though. I used to drill a couple of 0.3mm holes and try and fit a small loop at the corner of the window but lately I've found that a single hole will do if the the holding loop is formed of a 'U' with one long leg and the other butted up against the brake van, secured with tiny drop of that hot rocket stuff.

 

I always start off doing a brake van with great enthusiasm and end up just being relieved that it's over when it's complete, though. :-)  They certainly do have their fiddly moments.

I might be mistaken about what you are discussing, however I have been re reading one of Ian Rice's loco building books and he does loops to hold handrails at cab doors by using a sort of loop with one end of the wire stuck in the cab side,rear edge (if white metal) and the other side of the 'u' stuck to the inside of the cab side.  Is that what you mean above? On these plastic kits, the Rice method would work for a securing ring I am sure and this is maybe what you are doing?

Apologies if this is not what you meant. I had forgotten this 'trick' and have used Handrail Knobs if appropriate for the model if it is a loco and if they fit. Easier to do various rails when the bits are brass sheet IMO (e.g. coach sides) and use this trick on B Vans.

Phil

Edited October 25, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Tony Wright]

 

I like the vans in your other post, but sorry to see the ancient Bachmann (Mainline?) short ER van behind the J6, with its grossly distorted body (too long for a Toad D and too short for a Toad E); this sort of thing may have been OK for train sets in the 1970s when it was introduced but surely has no place on a modern scale layout.  Thank goodness Hornby have at last produced a decent model of this type of van!

Thanks Steve,

 

It's been removed from the layout now. I didn't realise it was so bad a model. 

[31A]

Thanks Steve,

 

It's been removed from the layout now. I didn't realise it was so bad a model. 

 

 

Jolly good, Tony!  I'm afraid I'm not able to report that the tension lock couplings have been removed from my layout!

[Barry Ten]

This 7mm Toad is from the Parkside kit. 

 

 

Every now and then a model feels like it has a curse on it, and it's definitely the case with this one. I made a bad start by getting the solebars the wrong way around, so that the rivet and gusset detail was at the wrong ends. Too late to undo the parts, so I sanded off the detail and then reinstated it using plastic card.

 

With the model nearly finished, I then broke one of the buffer spindles. I finally found the right type to replace them, but only after a year or two of searching.

 

The model was then complete, barring painting, but I snagged the end of it with my sleeve and knocked it onto a hard wooden floor. The uprights at the veranda end snapped, as did all the supports for the footboards. Deciding that the Parkside arrangement had always been too flimsy for my liking, I soldered up new footboard brackets from code 55 rail, bent and filed to shape. The model was then finished, painted, and transfers applied.

 

With it looking good, but overly glossy, I then went to spray a coat of Humbrol matt varnish over it, making the fatal mistake of not doing a test-spray first. Disaster! The varnish bloomed horribly, leaving the model in a catastrophic blotchy milky grey.

 

I've now rubbed back and part-repainted the grey, trying to work around the decals, but it's at that point where I'm debating whether to accept the finish as it stands or strip back to square one. This model is definitely testing my patience!

 

Al

[chris p bacon]

What you could do with, Tony, are a couple of ex-GN relics:

 

 

 

I reckon there were still a few of these kicking about as late as 1958. The 8 wheeler you might struggle to find other than second hand now, but the 6 wheeler is from a fairly recent batch Dan did.

 

 

 I have a couple of those. The last unmade 8 wheeler kit I saw on Ebay (6-8 months ago?) went for £95, I need a second one but will probably make it from styrene.

[dibateg]

O gauge version, Slaters kit - also with a giant lamp! A photo from 10 years ago ( where did that go? ), I cant remember if I built it or bought it. Looking at it now, horrible gap under the roof, missing lettering, at least it's got the red vac pipe. They are fascinating vehicles, often scruffy with great scope for variation. Enjoying the thread, as always.

 

 

Regards

Tony

[St Enodoc]

I'm almost certain that the current Parkside Peco wagons now come with waterslide transfers included, just as the 7mm kits do.

I thought that too but the Peco website said not when I checked - perhaps it needs a refresh.

[Tom F]

I have an ever growing fondness for Brake Vans. I currently have two GWR Toad's on the workbench. The Oxford, AA3 'Bala' Toad which is being reworked to have correct steel ends, plus converting a Hornby AA15 Toad into an AA19....I really need to crack on with these.

 

In the meantime here is a photo of my Hornby Standard BR Brake Van. Other than weathering, I've added a low hanging Vac Pipe, Instanter couplings and new buffers (Hornby had added 'later, Oleo' type buffers). Modelu lamps help give the finishing touches, as the lonely Pannier takes it's pick up goods over the Welsh Mountains.

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by 9793

[Barry Ten]

Anyone built a smaller brake van than this Rhymney Railway 6 ton version? Posed next to an ancient Ratio toad I built as a nipper.

 

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Tony and Everyone,

We will all remember Tony and Wolverhampton MRC's splendid model of Charwelton, on the Great Central

London Extension, sadly the real thing is crumbling away in places. The black iron bridge at the north

end of the station is the latest casualty, having been closed since June for safety reasons, after being

hit underneath by a digger truck. Some reports say the bridge will be repaired and strengthened, other

reports suggest demolition. A new road has been built under the bridge and north through the cutting.

The A361 over the station, was flattened many years ago, the station site is now being developed as an

industrial estate.

 

 

The new road through the cutting, runs to the southern entrance of Catesby Tunnel, which as previously

announced, is now to be used for automobile aerodynamics testing, complete with the construction of a

workshop complex. These developments, plus the new canal marina built across the line at Barby and Onley,

could be the final nail in the GC coffin. The route is clearly not safeguarded, elsewhere many other

sections have disappeared, particularly through, and north of, Nottingham.

Regards, Brian.

 

[Clem]

I might be mistaken about what you are discussing, however I have been re reading one of Ian Rice's loco building books and he does loops to hold handrails at cab doors by using a sort of loop with one end of the wire stuck in the cab side (if white metal) and the other side of the 'u' stuck to the inside of the cab side.  Is that what you mean above? On these plastic kits, the Rice method would work for a securing ring I am sure and this is maybe what you are doing?

Apologies if this is not what you meant. I had forgotten this 'trick' and have used Handrail Knobs if appropriate for the model if it is a loco and if they fit. Easier to do various rails when the bits are brass sheet IMO (e.g. coach sides) and use this trick on B Vans.

Phil

 

Hi Phil,

I'm relating to the small loop via which the safety bar is fixed to the brake van cabin end at the outer bottom corner of the windows. Another 'U' which I make out of plastic strip is used for the other end of the safety bar to sit in when it is across the entrance. I must admit that I don't  bother with the retaining loop which holds the bar against the side when it is in the dropped vertical position. I try to make my vans capable of having all safety bars either closed or open. But (no doubt, to Tony's horror) I've yet to fit lamps - my excuse is that until I have working signals and the correct signal box, there is no signal man looking for the tail-lamp when my trains run by ;-)