Battery powered/Radio controlled locos

[Robin2]

 

I am just wondering if track power is required for radio control or whether it can be done by setting up the control circuits in some coaches/wagons and connect them to a loco without track power being necessary at all.

Whether a loco is powered from the track or from on-board batteries is separate from the question of whether it is radio-controlled. You can use RC with either power source. However if you are using track power you have the choice between using the track for control (like DCC or even regular DC) or using RC. When you are using batteries and you have no track power then RC is the only option.

 

It is possible to fit the RC receiver and motor control system and the battery in most 00 Gauge locos. I have fitted it into some N Gauge locos. That means there is no need to carry stuff around in a carriage or wagon that is permanently attached to the loco.

 

I'm sure the first 500 posts in this Thread have a lot of useful info if you take the time to read them.

 

...R

[davetheroad]

The main thing thats seems to get forgotten is that layouts have points , signals, track/block  circuit detection, fixed lights etc etc , a model locomotive is Not the same thing as a model boat or a model plane, unlike the others it has to exist on a " layout ".

 

this means we still have plenty of wiring and in fact adding DCC wiring is not much of an additional chore 

 

yes get proper points, and proper  loco pickup and no judders.  DCC is capable of providing excellent slow speed running better then DC , and slower then the prototype typical operated at.  

BPRC will be a niche and the best off luck to it . people over estimate the complexity of wiring track. 

Let me make a prediction, BPRC will become another standard for controlling model locomotives. There are already systems available that can switch automatically between track and battery power and users of those systems will become to realise that just using the battery means you don't have to worry about track wiring, hex juicers, return loops etc. I suspect the tipping point will come when the promised new battery technologies arrive.

 

Not everyone uses DCC to control their points, even on a DCC layout and I would consider track block circuit detection as a niche market!. My layout has no wiring at all and, like many I find wiring a chore and detest crawling about underneath the baseboard. Wirefree is truly a joy.

[davetheroad]

Whether a loco is powered from the track or from on-board batteries is separate from the question of whether it is radio-controlled. You can use RC with either power source. However if you are using track power you have the choice between using the track for control (like DCC or even regular DC) or using RC. When you are using batteries and you have no track power then RC is the only option.

 

It is possible to fit the RC receiver and motor control system and the battery in most 00 Gauge locos. I have fitted it into some N Gauge locos. That means there is no need to carry stuff around in a carriage or wagon that is permanently attached to the loco.

 

I'm sure the first 500 posts in this Thread have a lot of useful info if you take the time to read them.

 

...R

Glad you mentioned this Robin as I am just starting to convert some diesel locomotives and, depending on the model there is a lot of room to fit in batteries etc. For some of them I have found that using 4 AAA size rechargeable NiMH cells with a voltage converter works well with up to 4 hours of use before battery replacement. NiMH has the advantage of being a standard consumer product that you can buy in any supermarket and is considered safe and perhaps not as scary as lithium batteries.

[Giles]

Just to clear something up - I've been using mini-jacks for charging for six years now - and I use them because they're nice and safe. The plug is fitted to the charging lead, and the socket to the loco or vehicle. Any momentary short you might get is on the charger side, not the LIPO side, as the LIPO is only fully connected into the circuit when the jack plug is fully pushed home (after the opportunity for the short). The other benefit is that the socket automatically disconnects the RX from the circuit whilst charging, which I like.

 

I would never put a pair of exposed live studs on the underside of a loco, as they could very easily be shorted out by any stray piece of conductive material  - even my wedding ring when picking the loco up! I do agree about the hazards of shorts, and the need to sensibly keep the batteries safe.

 

Best

 

Giles

[Corbs]

Hey guys, you may have already seen on my other thread, I've been converting some of my 00 gauge shunting engines to RC, mainly as I was fed up of the poor running over points etc.

 

You can see pics of the installs here

 

Here's a couple of videos of them on test. At present neither loco is fitted with a switch or charging socket, I'm just unplugging the batteries and taking them out to charge them. A bit lazy, a lot less work!

 

 

A little test of how slowly I could try and get No.5 to run across the layout with the minimum of jerkiness....

Edited April 3, 2017 by Corbs

[davetheroad]

Nice Corbs, that's the way I do it with my 0-6-0 Jinty and 0-4-0 Smokey Joe.

 

Your green loco has much smoother acceleration and deceleration than my Smokey Joe. What loco is it and how did you get it to perform so well?

 

I presume it is Deltang?

 

edit I should read the text, it is a Hornby/Dapol pug

Edited April 3, 2017 by davetheroad

[Corbs]

Yes but it is a lot smoother than the red one which shares the same chassis. I suspect the green one has a much newer chassis as it's always been a better runner. I'm not sure if its also that the receiver in the green one is about 3 years newer?

Red No.5 - Rx61-22

Green No.106 - Rx41d-22

Edited April 3, 2017 by Corbs

[davetheroad]

The obvious difference between the receivers is the PWM frequency. The Rx-61 will default to either 12Khz or 16Khz, that is 12 or 16 thousand power pulses per second. The Rx-41 defaults to 130Hz, that is 130 power pulses per second. Apparently lower PWM frequencies can give more torque to a motor. Does the loco make a noise? The Rx-61 frequency is considered to be silent.

[Corbs]

Well they were both a bit noisy when they were DC powered, the croaky sound of the motor on the red one is a slowed down version of that.

The green one and the 009 Skarloey (using the Rx41) both have better low speed control than the red one.

In the second video you can hear the green loco making a fair bit of noise before pulling away, as the inertia builds up.

[fallen]

It is possible to program the receivers for different PWM frequencies, so you could change them if you wanted to. You do need a different transmitter though, either a normal aircraft "two stick" transmitter or one of the special programming units DelTang produce. This is because you need control of channels 1-4 to invoke the programming mode, and the normal DelTang transmitters do not have channel 4 controls. You only need it to make the change though, so you could just borrow one and try it out.

 

Frank

[davetheroad]

According to the Deltang site the Rx-61 PWM can be programmed for

 

16 KHz

8 KHz

2 KHz

500 Hz

120 Hz

 

I must try the settings on my smokey joe.

[davetheroad]

I just tried changing the PWM settings on my smokey joe and it worked!

 

The default setting was 16KHz so I tried it on 500Hz first. The loco started on a lower voltage but not a lot of difference. There was a high pitched hum which was noticeable on acceleration.

 

On 120Hz there was a definite improvement with a lower starting speed and a low volume low pitched hum, actually better than at 500Hz. On reverse there was some binding evident which was masked before because of the higher speed. That should be fixable.

 

Smokey Joe has a pretty awful motor and a low gearing ratio but I tried converting it to radio and battery because someone said they would be surprised if it was possible to convert a 0-4-0

 

Another question - does a low PWM frequency damage the motor?

[Chris M]

I must say I am impressed with some of the work being done on this subject. I wish everyone success in their endeavours. If a loco chassis was designed to be BPRC from the outset it would be possible to have some very good OO locos with today's technology. As battery technology improves the viability of BPRC in smaller scales will also improve.

 

My experience of BPRC is in G scale. I use Deltang tx and rx and, as space isn't much of a problem 10 either AA or AAA NiMH batteries. All of my smaller locos are now BPRC and this gives excellent stall free running. There is something really nice about driving a loco that doesn't rely on track power. Somehow you do feel more empowered when driving. I get over four hours continuous running on a charge which is fine. All the locos have a socket underneath for easy recharging. I always put a fuse next to the battery pack as a short would not be pretty.

 

My larger locos are still track power as they pull very heavy loads and being heavy with lots of pick ups they are very good at picking up power from the track. Also the current Deltang rx range can't cope with 24 volts with somewhere around an 8 amp stall current.

 

Going slightly off topic I also have an indoor layout where I use a Deltang rx to control power to the track. So my one tx can control BPRC locos and track powered locos at the same time.

 

I really hope BPRC can become mainstream in the smaller scales sometime in the future.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Chris M

[fallen]

Hi Dave,

 

Glad to see you are making progress with the PWM frequency.

 

As regards the question of damage to motors, the generally agreed wisdom is that it depends on the type of motor.

 

For ordinary motors, low PWM can be beneficial, as you have seen with your Smokey Joe. The low frequency but longer pulses gives a motor fewer but bigger kicks so this can help with starting and low speed running. Traditional "DC" pulse controllers running on mains derived 50 or 100 Hz pulses used this to improve running at low speeds. However, more modern lighter coreless motors may be damaged by low frequencies as the motor responds much more quickly and the motor in in effect being started and stopped by each pulse. P

 

So the general advice is to run coreless motors with higher PWM frequencies at the top end of the Deltang range, but try the lower frequencies for more traditional designs.

 

Hope this helps

 

Frank

[fallen]

Hi Chris,

 

Thank you for your positive comments.

 

You are quite right about the driving experience with BPRC. It's just like driving a real loco, you turn the knob and it sets off, and keeps going, no need to tap it or nudge it or shake the baseboard, it just goes. No need to take a run at the points where it always stalls or the dodgy bit of track, it just goes. You have complete confidence in the loco you are driving, which you just do not have with track power.

 

I do demonstrations of BPRC in the smaller scales, mainly 009, at shows and I like to get people to try it out just to experience the difference.

 

BPRC is certainly viable in the smaller scales, the thing is that I have found it a lot easier to incorporate when building a loco from a kit than to backfit to a RTR loco as there may be modifications required to free up the internal space you need which are easier when building the loco. So this suits my main scales of 009 and 3mm, although I have backfitted BPRC in an OO RTR loco too, and it is certainly possible, as Corbs has shown.

 

The setup you describe is very similar to what I generally use. Also, as you have found, you can run BPRC locos on DC or DCC track successfully, so can use them alongside DC locos used for high power or long running time duties.

 

Frank

[Butler Henderson]

Realised that I will need a battery operated radio controlled loco as having got Warmington home there is no way I am going to easily be able to clean the hidden 5ft length of track that runs down the back of one board - was fine set up at an exhibition as there was access from the rear but hard up against a wall no chance. Advise on the following thoughts would be gratefully received.

 

Thinking of a Heljan 33 (have three of them) as

1. They will negotiate the hidden track okay so in the worse case situation that track could be solely worked by a battery/ rc loco.

2. They can easily shift the cmx track cleaning car

3. Reading articles on fitting dcc sound imply there is bags of space for such so presumably the same applies to battery / radio control.

 

 Looking at http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/rc_model_rail.html seems that I will need a Rx60 (or Rx61) receiver as the 33s have a stall current around 1.2A together with an appropriate battery. To control it at first I thought a Tx20 would do but if I have read the info sheet right as it does not mention programming I would need a separate programming unit or a controller that offers programming such as a Tx72.

[Chris M]

Realised that I will need a battery operated radio controlled loco as having got Warmington home there is no way I am going to easily be able to clean the hidden 5ft length of track that runs down the back of one board - was fine set up at an exhibition as there was access from the rear but hard up against a wall no chance. Advise on the following thoughts would be gratefully received.

 

Thinking of a Heljan 33 (have three of them) as

1. They will negotiate the hidden track okay so in the worse case situation that track could be solely worked by a battery/ rc loco.

2. They can easily shift the cmx track cleaning car

3. Reading articles on fitting dcc sound imply there is bags of space for such so presumably the same applies to battery / radio control.

 

 Looking at http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/rc_model_rail.html seems that I will need a Rx60 (or Rx61) receiver as the 33s have a stall current around 1.2A together with an appropriate battery. To control it at first I thought a Tx20 would do but if I have read the info sheet right as it does not mention programming I would need a separate programming unit or a controller that offers programming such as a Tx72.

 

If you are only going to use it to drive up and down why do you need programming? The receiver basically works out of the box. The only thing I can think of is you might want to change the pwm frequency but you could probably ask your supplier to change it if it was a problem.

[fallen]

Hi,

 

I am not familiar with the Heljan 33's but here are some things to think about.

 

The model of receiver you need is determined by the size and the stall current, as you say. The Rx65 is probably the most comprehensive in what it will do and higher power than the others so worth looking at this too. After that, the particular variant depends on what other controls you may want eg on/off channels for lights, and which transmitter system you want to use.

 

The TX20 and TX21 will only control one loco at a time, all the others must be switched off. The TX22 will control up to 12 locos with control switched from one to another by the transmitter knob. So if you might want to control the three 33's then the TX22 would be the one to go for. You then need a "Selecta" enabled receiver to work with this, ie the "22" variant.

 

The receivers come set up for a particular transmitter and with standard outputs for lights etc. set up as well. If you explain to Micron what you want they will come ready set up and so you do not need to program them yourself. If you want to change the program you can do so, this includes settings for individual outputs as well as the variant eg from "1" to "2" to "22" etc. To do this you need either a standard Spectrum aircraft two stick transmitter or one of the DelTang PROG devices (eg PROG3). The TX72 also gives some programming capability, but this is still being developed and it is currently restricted as to what it can do, so may not be the best solution for you.

 

The DelTang website lists the different receivers etc here

http://www.deltang.co.uk/index.htm

 

And what the RX65 receiver can be programmed to do is listed here, for example

http://www.deltang.co.uk/rx65b-v611-p.htm

 

There is a corresponding page for each receiver.

 

Hope this helps

 

Frank

[Butler Henderson]

If you are only going to use it to drive up and down why do you need programming? The receiver basically works out of the box. The only thing I can think of is you might want to change the pwm frequency but you could probably ask your supplier to change it if it was a problem.

 

 

Hi,

 

I am not familiar with the Heljan 33's but here are some things to think about.

 

The model of receiver you need is determined by the size and the stall current, as you say. The Rx65 is probably the most comprehensive in what it will do and higher power than the others so worth looking at this too. After that, the particular variant depends on what other controls you may want eg on/off channels for lights, and which transmitter system you want to use.

 

The TX20 and TX21 will only control one loco at a time, all the others must be switched off. The TX22 will control up to 12 locos with control switched from one to another by the transmitter knob. So if you might want to control the three 33's then the TX22 would be the one to go for. You then need a "Selecta" enabled receiver to work with this, ie the "22" variant.

 

The receivers come set up for a particular transmitter and with standard outputs for lights etc. set up as well. If you explain to Micron what you want they will come ready set up and so you do not need to program them yourself. If you want to change the program you can do so, this includes settings for individual outputs as well as the variant eg from "1" to "2" to "22" etc. To do this you need either a standard Spectrum aircraft two stick transmitter or one of the DelTang PROG devices (eg PROG3). The TX72 also gives some programming capability, but this is still being developed and it is currently restricted as to what it can do, so may not be the best solution for you.

 

The DelTang website lists the different receivers etc here

http://www.deltang.co.uk/index.htm

 

And what the RX65 receiver can be programmed to do is listed here, for example

http://www.deltang.co.uk/rx65b-v611-p.htm

 

There is a corresponding page for each receiver.

 

Hope this helps

 

Frank

Thanks - I was thinking of only fitting one 33 as rc on the basis that once its shoved the track cleaner down the 03/04/08 that normally use that line should run along it okay but thinking on it might be useful to have the extra capacity so a Tx22 or Tx72 would be a sensible purchase. What size battery would be recommended?

[Robin2]

If the purpose is just for track cleaning in a behind-the-scenes location why do you need radio control?

 

Just build a crude vehicle with battery power and a limit switch that sticks out in front and gets toggled when it hits the buffers so it changes direction.

 

...R

[Butler Henderson]

If the purpose is just for track cleaning in a behind-the-scenes location why do you need radio control?

 

Just build a crude vehicle with battery power and a limit switch that sticks out in front and gets toggled when it hits the buffers so it changes direction.

 

...R

Needs to be something powerful enough to shift the brass track cleaner  and controllable in some fashion as one end is into a dead end fiddle and the other a station throat. Thinking of incorporating a DPDT switch so the 33 can be used normally.

[fallen]

Batteries mainly depend on the motor. You need to decide how many, which depends on the voltage the loco needs to run a typical speed (not flat out!) and what capacity to ginve a reasonable duration.

 

As I said, I know nothing about the 33''s, but a fairly modern OO loco would typically need two LiPo batteries in series, nominal voltage 7.4 volts, to run reasonably and perhaps 200 mAh to give reasonable duration (an hour at least, possibly two), more if you have space.

 

You will need an Rx6 series receiver to run this, the exact model depending on what else you might want to do.

 

If possible, measure the voltage you need on the rails to drive the loco with the track cleaner, and the current it takes.

 

Frank

[Butler Henderson]

Batteries mainly depend on the motor. You need to decide how many, which depends on the voltage the loco needs to run a typical speed (not flat out!) and what capacity to ginve a reasonable duration.

 

As I said, I know nothing about the 33''s, but a fairly modern OO loco would typically need two LiPo batteries in series, nominal voltage 7.4 volts, to run reasonably and perhaps 200 mAh to give reasonable duration (an hour at least, possibly two), more if you have space.

 

You will need an Rx6 series receiver to run this, the exact model depending on what else you might want to do.

 

If possible, measure the voltage you need on the rails to drive the loco with the track cleaner, and the current it takes.

 

Frank

Thanks for the info.

[Corbs]

I've posted this elsewhere already but thought it was worth adding to the thread.

A video showing how my 009 Bachmann 'Skarloey' works, including charging and running.

[davetheroad]

Nice video Corbs

 

How big is the battery in the loco?

 

I like the idea of using a USB power bank for the E-flite USB charger as it makes you independent of a leccy supply.