Battery powered/Radio controlled locos

[raymw]

Hi Dave,

I've had a phone call back, and a long chat. I've been asked for more details, I'll let them know requirements wrt size, and more or less power needs. The polymer batteries have not been developed in the way I thought, but there are apparently a fair number of rectangular li-po batteries inside of phones and the like.

 

I know little about the more normal (planes/cars/boats) model rc side of things, but it seems that the lipo's used have no protection built in. They are protected via the charger, but 'run free' when powering the motor, since there is a high current flow for most motors in planes, etc. Unless you have a wiring problem, it should be OK for our little loco motors.

 

I've a feeling, that the more ideal battery solution may involve changing to, say a 6V motor, and/or a step up regulator. But, it hasn't got to be perfect first time.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

[Robin2]

if you have a pair of conductors (maybe 3 if OH) why do you need to use radio for control?

In my opinion it was a silly comment precisely because of what you say. He knew perfectly well that those of us who like BPR/C were not suggesting that that sort of train should be converted to batteries.

 

...R

[raymw]

Hi Robin,

 

Why didn't you say that, then - something like 'I don't think that type of loco would benefit from much from converting to BP or R/C'. Or acknowledge the other postings made by those who are pointing out other shortcomings in some of the other statements made in this forum.

 

I am interested, for example, in the sort of connector that can carry the current required to charge a 1Ah battery in one minute. If the new cells we dream of, become available at a price suitable to us, I think that still will be a problem, unless maybe room temperature superconductors hit the market at about the same time.

 

I am in favour of everybody trying anything experimental, as many are on here.  At the moment, if looking at it from a rtr point of view, the battery part is probably what is holding it back - the electronics is trivial. An individual can develop software and get pcbs made for little cost. Financing the production of special shaped batteries, for individual locos, that is the tricky bit. Oh, and standards, of course.

 

It may be better to start a new thread, specifically about fitting bprc to a specific type of loco, with what you expect to achieve. e.g. 'fitting rcbp to a 00 tank loco, designed to pull/shunt 20 wagons, half an hour between  charging'. I read/scanned  through the whole of this thread, couldn't find anything specific which caused the annoyances with some posters, other than comments being ignored from those who were not excited about bprc.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

[davetheroad]

Hi Robin,

 

Why didn't you say that, then - something like 'I don't think that type of loco would benefit from much from converting to BP or R/C'. Or acknowledge the other postings made by those who are pointing out other shortcomings in some of the other statements made in this forum.

 

I am interested, for example, in the sort of connector that can carry the current required to charge a 1Ah battery in one minute. If the new cells we dream of, become available at a price suitable to us, I think that still will be a problem, unless maybe room temperature superconductors hit the market at about the same time.

 

I am in favour of everybody trying anything experimental, as many are on here.  At the moment, if looking at it from a rtr point of view, the battery part is probably what is holding it back - the electronics is trivial. An individual can develop software and get pcbs made for little cost. Financing the production of special shaped batteries, for individual locos, that is the tricky bit. Oh, and standards, of course.

 

It may be better to start a new thread, specifically about fitting bprc to a specific type of loco, with what you expect to achieve. e.g. 'fitting rcbp to a 00 tank loco, designed to pull/shunt 20 wagons, half an hour between  charging'. I read/scanned  through the whole of this thread, couldn't find anything specific which caused the annoyances with some posters, other than comments being ignored from those who were not excited about bprc.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

Amazing timing!. i was taking photos this morning for a new thread i am going to entitle 'Battery Powered Radio Controlled Locomotives for Pengarigg'

 

Pengarigg is my 00 scale steam era layout under construction. The first loco to be featured is one of my favourites, a Hornby Railroad Midland Compound 4-4-0.

 

Watch this forum !

[Robin2]

Hi Robin,

 

Why didn't you say that, then - something like 'I don't think that type of loco would benefit from much from converting to BP or R/C'. Or acknowledge the other postings made by those who are pointing out other shortcomings in some of the other statements made in this forum.

Simply because what I was referring to was written as sneering criticism of us folk who like BPR/C and was not a request for information.

 

I am quite comfortable with my own credentials in the BPR/C field

 

...R

[Ken Anderson]

Hey chaps I'm back.

A bit said to see some of the comments criticising others.

Each is entitled to their own "on subject" topics.

If you don't like a particular contributor or he writes then just don't read them.

You are adult after all.

[Robin2]

 then just don't read them.

 

I haven't figured out how to do that yet.

 

...R

[Tiptonian]

You are adult after all.

 

 

I've never been so insulted in all my life!

[28XX]

Here is my ancient Hornby frame motor chassis. It is a LNER prototype no 8477 in green livery and was given to me by a friend. As I model LMS/BR London Midland it might only get an occasional outing.

 

It moves just fine with a Deltang receiver and quite happily climbs over the first Peco code 100 point frog it encounters. The running is a bit erratic at slow speed but it appears that the quartering is off and the back to backs need looking at!

 

I will not be able to check the haulage capicity, speed and power consumption until the wheels etc are sorted.

 

Hornby frame motor.jpg

Thanks very much! This is the basic Triang Jinty / 87XX / 4F / diesel shunter etc. chassis, so your experience should read across ok.

 

Time to order some DT gear I think.

[SimonME46]

Just revisiting this after a break from modelling. Looks like things are really coming along. With the Deltang system, BPR/C looks to be readily achieved, even for O gauge. Time to purchase a test setup and then look to sell all the DCC stuff!

 

Having spent a bit of my time with computers, I would prefer to play trains, not computer games, so I want hand held controllers with regulators/cutoff/brake handles etc. I don't want a computer controlled layout/touchscreens/phones/tablets etc. I love the experience of sound and don't intend to exhibit (tho I have and could do so again).

 

I've fired a bunch of questions at David from Deltang, mostly about customising the tx box to have more use specific buttons, and also about sound.

 

Following on from Robin2's posts, I'm pondering options including;

*onboard sound (likely to be a long wait for a modest result. You can't get past the physics of small speakers)

*under layout sound using Deltang tx and the rx transmits engine speed and load, and we have something such as a raspberry pi listening to both transmission and then generating load and speed dependant sounds. Taking this further would be detection (rfid?) so that the sound can be faded appropriately around the layout. Could also have other triggers for rail joints/points etc

*drop the Deltang tx and just use the Deltang RX as deltino as Robin2 has done, talking to a Rasberry Pi, which does all the smarts including sound per above

[Robin2]

*drop the Deltang tx and just use the Deltang RX as deltino as Robin2 has done, talking to a Rasberry Pi, which does all the smarts including sound per above

In case of misunderstanding I use one of the deltino devices as the master (or transmitter) - in my case connected to my PC, but could also be used with an RPi

 

...R

[SimonME46]

Thanks Robin. I had a prompt and helpful reply from DavidT. Seems there is a way to go before an integrated solution is available?

[Corbs]

I've taken the plunge and bought a transmitter and a couple of receivers from DelTang. Dropped David an email and as mentioned above he was very quick to get back to me.

 

David suggested I start with a Tx22-Built and an Rx61-22-W.

 

Just need to get batteries and charger now, am looking around but if anyone might possibly have a direct link to batteries + charger that definitely work with a 00 gauge loco and a means to buy it online then I would be very appreciative

[DaveyH]

Over the last few weeks I have installed a Deltang receiver, battery, switch and charging circuit in an old Lima Western. I decided to replace the Lima 12v pancake motor with a 5v susomotor and power the loco with just a 1s Lipo at 3.7v. Works beautifully and, after finding the shoehorn, all fits in nicely!

Next project is to fit out a Lima HST power car. This one will be powered with a 7.4v 2s Lipo and the voltage uprated through a Pololu voltage regulator to 12v. Might possibly use the Tgs as a host for the electronics in this one as they run as a fixed set.....we'll see when I open the power car up?

[fallen]

Hi Corbs,

 

I generally use single cell (1S) batteries for 009 but have used a two cell (2S) battery for an O-16.5 loco that has a Mehano OO chassis. The two cells are just single cells wired in series to give 7.4v nominal.

 

The single cell batteries are fairly widely available, they are used in model helicopters and the like. Different shapes and sizes are available, with different capacities. You can pick ones that fit your loco. I use these most often

 

http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/lipo_hyperion.html

 

Although the best selection is from Hobbyking

 

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/index.asp

 

For the single cells I use this charger

 

http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/batteries/usb-lipo-charger

 

It can be set to 100mA or 500mA. I use it on 100 mA for the smaller cells and its fine. You also need a USB adapter AKA phone charger to power it.

 

For the two cell setup you need a balance charger and I use this one

 

http://robotbirds.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=9_269&products_id=6255

 

although it charges a bit fast for the smaller cells; you can of course charge the cells separately using the single cell charger.

 

Alternatively you can use a single cell with a voltage multiplier for OO locos as supplied by Popolu, as mentioned by Cornerman, this means you only need a single cell battery but it needs to be bigger as what you gain in voltage you lose in battery duration. It does however do away with the need for balance charging.

 

Hope this helps

 

Frank

[DaveyH]

I already had several Nimh rechargeables before I discovered Lipos and the need to balance multi-cell batteries, so I bought one of these, with which I can do all sorts (short of boiling an egg or two   )

 

http://www.emodels.co.uk/etronix-powerpal-80w-ac-dc-pro-charger-discharger-et0200-8.html

 

For the Western I use a very small, (but beautifully formed) Hubsan 1s 240 mah lipo.

 

http://www.emodels.co.uk/hubsan-x4-mini-quadcopter-lipo-battery-h107-a05.html

 

Happy with both solutions............

[raymw]

maybe, in a few years time, better batteries http://phys.org/news/2015-04-ultra-fast-aluminum-battery-safe-alternative.html  but maybe not. Reminds me of the primary cells used in Polaroid film packs, but a different chemistry. If you cut the Polaroid battery in half, it welded up your scissors.

[davetheroad]

maybe, in a few years time, better batteries http://phys.org/news/2015-04-ultra-fast-aluminum-battery-safe-alternative.html  but maybe not. Reminds me of the primary cells used in Polaroid film packs, but a different chemistry. If you cut the Polaroid battery in half, it welded up your scissors.

Another promising technology that might be available in a few years. What we can be certain of is the desire for light, high capacity, small batteries to power all those billions? of electronic devices. The first to market with a suitable product could make billions of pounds!.

[StuartM]

It's been a couple of years since I started this thread and asked Andy if it would be possible to create a separate section just for radio control/Battery power and I'm really pleased and impressed with all the people who have taken the idea much further than I have.

Perhaps one the manufactures will cotton on the the idea, we live in hope.

Please carry on posting your excellent models and ideas

Stuart

[Argos]

Hi all,
 
I am currently in the throes of adding RC/battery control/power to my emerging 7mm scale layout (detailed in http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/104831-the-taddington-branch-of-the-lnwr/page-12 )
 
I think I've got most of the details sorted.
I am using Deltang equipment linked to LiPo 2S batteries, I am shortly going to playing around with best fit for the batteries, on/off switch and charging sockets etc.
 
The main issue I think I will face is mounting the receiver.
 
Most of the loco on the layout will be kit built from brass and nickle silver.
Has anyone any experience of mounting the receivers in such locos?
 
Information on the web seems to be scant.
Reference is made to diminished range if mounted in metal bodies.
But how much?
I will be operating in a garage with maximum dimensions of 12' x 18' so will not be more than 20' away with line of sight.
Clearly range would be an issue in the garden but would the body inhibit the signal to reduce range below 20'?
 
I intend to have a play to see what works but am a few days off receiving the last pieces of equipment.
 
I have also seen reference to replacing the cab roof with plastic and mounting the receiver under this.
Presumably bending the antenna down vertically in the cab to assist with the signal.
 
Would this be sufficient?
 
All advice and experience gratefully received.
 
Thanks

[Argos]

Hi Simon,
 
During my research trawl of the interweb I found this useful page:-
 
 http://www.brianjonesmodels.co.uk/rc4gr.pdf
 
Most of the advice is around 40 & 27Mhz but 2.4Ghz is also covered.
 
Brian recommends the square aerial approach for the lower frequencies but not the higher.
Talking about metal bodied locos he says:-
 
"An effective solution is to cut out a section of cab roof, say 2" x 1" and fit a removable plasticard roof. This can be shaped, if necessary, by heating it between shaped metal plates, with a hot air gun. A thin brass shim can be stuck to the underside of the plastic roof, 6mm smaller all round, so that it breaks down any inductive or capacitive link to the body. The end of the aerial lead can then be soldered to the shim."
 
"These instructions apply mainly to 27MHz AM and 40MHz FM equipment. With a 2.4GHz set, it’s probably best if you don’t attach the aerials to aerial plates, but just have them as high up on the loco, or tender, as possible, preferably not resting on any metalwork."
 
Has anybody got a square aerial working in the context of 2.4 Ghz, if so is size critical as with  standard aerial (0.25 x wave length I believe)?

Edited August 6, 2016 by Argos

[SimonME46]

Snap. I'm headed down a very, very similar path. Deltang gear in 7mm FS, I want under layout sound (no more expensive and tinny sounding Dcc speakers or wiring thx). And I've done a Modratec interlocked signal box.

 

My current thinking is receiver under the coal. And I'm thinking about where to hide a charging jack..I'm looking at small boards on each loco which will handle the balance charging. They can be had for cheap, so all I need to do is provide a 2 pin charging jack. This could be a 2.5mm or 3.5mm stereo Jack? Worst case down the chimney, otherwise hidden in the coal space?

[fallen]

Hi,

 

I have a few radio control locos, mostly 009 but some other scales. All use Deltang electronics.

 

Mostly they are either plastic bodies or whitemetal bodies, and for these I have the RX in the cab and usually have a styrene roof, partly because of RF shielding concerns but mostly to improve the loco balance as otherwise they are often tail heavy. Range seems not to be a problem, I can get at least 30 ft and usually the problem is seeing what the loco is doing!

 

I do have one 3mm loco that is a brass etch kit. It is a diesel and the RX is in the cab with the usual small diesel style windows and otherwise totally enclosed in brass. I have just checked the range of this. It will keep control up to 30 ft away quite nicely. Much beyond 30 ft it loses contact and then you have to go back to just over 20 ft to regain contact. So I think 20 ft should be OK.

 

I would not recommend changing the antenna. The ones on the Deltang boards are quarter wave at 2.4 GHz and this is the best antenna to use.

 

I do have a couple of locos one at OO scale and one at O-16.5 that run on two cells, with the Deltang Rx 6 series receiver. I charge these with a balance charger that plugs in to a socket under the footplate. I use a standard servo connector for this as it is three contact and works fine. For charging the other locos which run on single cells I use the same connectors as the LiPo batteries use, again under the footplate.

 

I have found if you put the connector and switch under the footplate, one each side, with the wires coming up into the cab, then wiring up is straightforward and usually there are steps below the cab door that hide the connector and switch very nicely. All of my locos are tank locos so no tender option!

 

Frank

Edited August 6, 2016 by fallen

[fallen]

Thanks Simon,

 

I do have a couple of videos on YouTube, quite old ones now.

 

Argos, I have never had to worry about fitting the antenna into a loco, and that includes 009 tank locos, so this should not be a problem,

But I do tend to put the RX up under the cab roof, mainly so you can see the status LED if you need to. This seems much the easiest place, and unless you pick the loco up and turn it over it is pretty much invisible.

 

If you are interested in radio control, ther is a very good discussion on the Freerails forum, its a US forum but actually the radio control people are from across the globe. The best UK forum is probably NGRM-online which is a narrow gauge forum but has a fair amount on radio control. Radio control seems to have taken hold in narrow gauge in the UK.

 

 

Frank

[Argos]

Thanks for the advice so far.

It has been most useful.

 

It looks like plastic roof with the receiver and antenna below is the way to go.

 

 

I've just realized I've made a numpty mistake and ordered some standard 2.1mm power jacks for the charging connection.

I will be using 2S LiPos so will need three connections.......Doh!

 

Back to the drawing board on that one.

I could just use the standard JST-XH connector supplied on the battery but I'm not convinced by the longevity of this connector.

like SimonME46 above I was thinking of using the chimney as the power socket (although a couple of my locos have a solid white metal chimney so another approach is required). 

This approach won't work with the JST-XH connectors.

 

For charging I'm currently thinking of a small shed layout accessed off the fiddle yard.

Locos would be parked up and plugged in for charging so would be visible, a socket under the chassis seems the most discreet.

 

I like the idea of the locos going onto shed to "refuel".

Edited August 6, 2016 by Argos