Hornby Thompson coaches, an early whinge.

[tetleys]

Having been starved of decent RTR ex LNER coaches all my life and then two come along like buses.

 

I bought a full third and composite version of Hornby's Gresley version shortly after their release and I am waiting to complete my rake as and when they re-manufacture the third brake all of which were sold out when I purchased the other two coaches, I really don't fancy dismantling and spraying.the teak version

 

I spotted a review of the Hornby Thompson versions in last months Model Rail so knowing they were now available and before the dust had settled from my latest Model Rail hitting the hall floor yesterday I turned to Hattons advert and with credit card poised made the call. Only to be told, "Sorry sir, the brake third is discontinued, I tried to buy one myself without success." (Discontinued means out of stock).

 

What's that all about?

 

I did manage, as with the Hornby Gresley version to grab a full third and a composite but where the Devil have all the third brakes gone and who's buying just a third brake without iether of the other coaches or is everybody modelling The Hemyock Branch line circa 1958?

 

Why, I ask myself, having obviously under-produced third brakes in their Gresley version did Hornby not forsee a demand for extra production in their forthcoming Thompsons?

 

Come on you clever people and those within Simon Kohler's inner circle / Christmas card list put me out of my misery, I've had more success contacting Lord Lucan than tracking down the elusive Hornby ex LNER brake thirds in BR livery.

 

(Third) Brake Dancer of Ancaster

[45156]

I've found this a few times now, as many rakes include two brakes, one at each end, so they tend to sell out first - why the makers don't make two at the same time with different running numbers - buyers are happy - job done

[Ceptic]

The very same thing happened with the Maunsell Brake coaches.

 

It's been re-iterated, here, and elsewhere,... time, and time again, that, Hornby have, yet to understand / come to terms with their market / customers

 

All the best, Ceptic

[BrushVeteran]

Would you believe I purchased my Gresley Brake from a model shop in Perth..........................................AUSTRALIA!!!!!

[Guest Max Stafford]

Managed to bag the last one at Bourton Model Railway. Jeez; £9 more than at 87029's!

Still, needs must!

 

Dave.

[tetleys]

I've found this a few times now, as many rakes include two brakes, one at each end, so they tend to sell out first - why the makers don't make two at the same time with different running numbers - buyers are happy - job done

I agree that brakes were often used on both ends of a multi coach train and with quite a few extra brake composites where one, two or three coaches were detached en-route but with shorter non corridor trains and in particular LNER locals I believe the consist was one of each, brake, composite and full third.

 

However, life goes on, I wasn't going to buy any locos or rolling stock until my layout was up and running since I've got enough problems storing my railway stuff but I know that with batch manufacturing sometimes I have to grab while I can or wait years for repeat production, if anybody from Hornby reads RMWeb please understand there are eager customers out there who want to buy your products.

[coachmann]

Trains were just a likely to include a Gresley vehicle and/or a regrouping vehicle in the consist. Purchasing two brake thirds/brake seconds with one full third and one lavatory composite shows how people want perfect trains.

 

Good luck Tetleys in locating your prey....

[Barry Ten]

On the other hand, second hand bits of model shops always seem to be clogged up with Centenary brake coaches so I guess sometimes they make too many of those as well.

[Mallard60022]

Ebay speculators?

P

[Guest Max Stafford]

Update on that coach I ordered. Further email; "sorry, out of stock"...

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There could be a variant whinge relating to the Thompson maroon composites: my perception is that at least in the Kings Cross area it was these vehicles that outlived the others, providing the comfort in the outer sub sets otherwise made up of BR mk1 non-gangwayed.

[tetleys]

I have just received the two Thompsons ordered a couple of days ago and despite my whinging over the lack of a brake third they are lovely!

 

I have spent many,many hours over the previous few years making a three coach rake of these Thompsons (complete with brake third) from etched brass kits with white metal bogies etc and although clever and more enthusiastic kit builders such as Coachman can create fantastic fully detailed and correctly roofed and side profiled examples I could never hope to better the Hornby RTR examples. I'm sure if I had tried to add door stop buffers and hinges I'd spend more on broken drill bits than what these Hornby coaches cost although I do have a BR crimson coach that once weatherd looks very much better than BR maroon even though that colour is authentic for my period.

 

Unfortunately I cannot afford to have professionals build the coaches I really lust after but if Hornby and Bachmann continue to raise the bar of RTR stock I'll keep support them, that's if I can find the coaches to buy!

[robmcg]

It wouild be an interesting exercise to see what a brake 3rd Thomspon would reach on Ebay. Unable to find one, I bought a 3rd and a composite to add to photos of models of BR regional trains of the 50s and would pay, say as much a 35 quid.... who says there isn't profit in the hobby eh?

[stewartingram]

Don't forget a lot of the shorter formations would only have 1 brake, somewhere near the middle, with 1 or 2 other coaches (not necessarily of the same style) either side of it. Lots of photographic evidence around.

 

Stewart

[robmcg]

Indeed it is a comfort to know that the use of Gresleys and Thompsons and other carriages were commonly varied, with a single Thompson composite turning up in many parts of the country, and all kinds of variations, corridor Staniers I think excluded?

 

One question; were the Gresley and Thompson non-vestibule carriages carrying blood and custard or some variation of paint at all, or for very long, or did some or all go from teak straight to maroon?

 

Rob

[tetleys]

Indeed it is a comfort to know that the use of Gresleys and Thompsons and other carriages were commonly varied, with a single Thompson composite turning up in many parts of the country, and all kinds of variations, corridor Staniers I think excluded?

 

One question; were the Gresley and Thompson non-vestibule carriages carrying blood and custard or some variation of paint at all, or for very long, or did some or all go from teak straight to maroon?

 

Rob

I am certainly no expert and I'm sure Coachman can give the definitive answer but it is my understanding that, the original Gresley non corridor teak coaches were re-finished in plain brown paint as they needed works attention although when built, the Gresley and LNER period Thompsons received a mock teak paint finish from the very skilled artisans although this was unlikely to be the case during the war period for any new builds. After the war I believe brown paint was the norm and this could have been carried for some years since the named main line corridor coaches were given priority, there is certainly plenty of photographic evidence from the early nationalisation years. I believe the non corridor coaches were finished in plain crimson although any full brake coaches and short six wheel BZs likely to run with main line corridor trains were finished in the crimson and cream. Re-paints after 1956 were in maroon but again it is likely that some coaches carried crimson for several years even until withdrawn, I consider these crimson coaches when, weathered and mixed in with a maroon rake really add visual interest.

 

Coachman rightly suggests that the consists 'down the pecking order' and additions to replace a faulty coach were often a mish mash of designs and even regional origins but for secondary services the LNER often put out the classic brake/composite/third which is what I like to emulate.

 

An aside note is that full 10 or 12 coach trains of non corridor coaches were often used on excursions and the platforms of intermediate stations such as Sleaford between Skegness and Nottingham carrying day trippers (who probably spent much of the day drinkings Batemans Best) were 'awash' during and after trains stopped!

[coachmann]

As far as I am aware, Gresley designed non-corridor coaches carried stained and varnished teak thoughout the LNER period, the 'brown' paint being reserved for coaches of pre-grouping origins that had carried a painted finish up to the Grouping of 1923. Okay, some coaches were stripped right back to wood and then stained and varnished, but I suspect the majority of coaches such as ex-North Eastern, which carried maroon before 1923, were given brown 'teak' paint. They may even have scumbled & grained finish in early LNER days.

[dandg]

I spotted a review of the Hornby Thompson versions in last months Model Rail so knowing they were now available and before the dust had settled from my latest Model Rail hitting the hall floor yesterday I turned to Hattons advert and with credit card poised made the call. Only to be told, "Sorry sir, the brake third is discontinued, I tried to buy one myself without success." (Discontinued means out of stock).

 

(Third) Brake Dancer of Ancaster

 

tetleys - please see pm sent yesterday

[robmcg]

So I can assume that Thompson and Gresley non-corridor or non-vestibule coaches in the 1948-56 era were either teak or brownish, crimson, or later, maroon, with varying degrees of grime and wear, and blood and custard was reserved for corridor and full brake coaches approx 1949-57?

 

That would accord with the many photos I've seen.

 

Rob

[Metr0Land]

So I can assume that Thompson and Gresley non-corridor or non-vestibule coaches in the 1948-56 era were either teak or brownish, crimson, or later, maroon, with varying degrees of grime and wear, and blood and custard was reserved for corridor and full brake coaches approx 1949-57?

 

That would accord with the many photos I've seen.

 

Rob

 

Don't forget the maroon could be lined or unlined, oh and depots mixed their own paints. (Have seen pics of suburban rakes on MML and GN where there's 3 shades of red. One is crimson, one is maroon, so what's the 3rd? Fresh maroon? Grimy crimson?)

[coachmann]

So I can assume that Thompson and Gresley non-corridor or non-vestibule coaches in the 1948-56 era were either teak or brownish, crimson, or later, maroon, with varying degrees of grime and wear, and blood and custard was reserved for corridor and full brake coaches approx 1949-57?

 

That would accord with the many photos I've seen.

 

Rob

Regarding Gresley and Thompson non-corridors, they entered BR stock in 1948 in teak. Teak livery continued to be applied until the early months of 1949. From then on until around May 1956, carmine red was applied to all new coaches as well as repaints. From 1956, maroon replaced carmine red (blood).

[robmcg]

Good, that's clear. I have no problem with that, having many years ago made quite a lot of furniture stained in any number of shades (no teak though)... I will try to add the odd teak carriage, a bit careworn, to trains of equally careworn carmine red non-corridors, with maybe different shades of carmine to go with later maroon, but probably it will be a pretty subjective interpretation, and as already done in the Bachmann D11/1 thread, with a blood and custard Mk1, as in my pic of 'Prince Albert' here... apologies to those who have seen it before...

 

 

 

Rob

[tetleys]

Coachman,

 

Thanks for clearing up the livery question, you might be able to help again.

 

I like the crimson coaches but as produced RTR it is as 'out shopped' and I've sprayed a couple of my own kit builds using the handy Halfords aerosols but they look just too .......crimson!

Great Northern has a lot of crimson and crimson and cream kit built coaches and since red paint is one of the worst for fading if not polished, his professional builders, yourself included have managed to re-create this washed out crimson effect. What colour do you recommend and is there a Halfords car paint that would suite?

 

I recall yawning through endless debates in the modelling mags a few years ago between modellers (all of whom weren't born or spotting pre 1923) on the true colour of Midland Crimson lake. As if anybody else cared and since I certainly don't want another debate on the 'true colour of BR Crimson' I just want advice on the washed out, 4 or more years in traffic and the elements crimson.

 

Thanks

[coachmann]

For 1949-56 carmine red (blood) I use an Alfa Romeo car colour. It was very close to the early Precision Paints gloss and was less expensive than having it specially mixed by Keeps.

 

For Midland/LMS pre-1945 crimson lake/BR post 1956 maroon, I had some paint given to me by my old friend the storekeeper at Derby Works. It was used as a pattern for J.T.Keep to mix it for me, then ICI later on.

 

There is a list of car colours somewhere on RMweb. They have been recommended by members as good matches for proprietory railway paints. I was asked to assist Railmatch when they were first setting up their then new model paint range and so Railmatch LMS crimson lake is pretty close to that paint obtained from Derby, with one proviso......It looks dandy in the wet but it contains a matting agent and so the colour looks quite drab once dry.