RMweb Gold Argos Posted December 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 4, 2012 I am looking to source drawings for the Caley Macintosh 439 0-4-4t - any scale - any era. I vaguely recall some in a relative recent Railway Modeller but having searched I can't find it so maybe the drugs have since worn off.... I am not a member of the Caledonian Railway Society so would appreciate if anyone can point me in the direction of another source. I have loads of photographs and reference literature for the locomotive but need a good drawing to enable a model to be built. Thanks Argos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 It's just possible I have a spare CRA drawing but it will be tomorrow before I can check. It's just possible I have a spare CRA drawing but it will be tomorrow before I can check. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhar Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 I don't think it's been in RM in the last 5 or 6 years at least. May 1972 has some sketches in connection with converting an old-style M7, but not a full drawing. Join the CR Soc and buy it, a good drawing is probably be worth a year's subs, plus it supports one of the line societies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard of the Moor Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Railway Modeller of November 1955 has a drawing. I've no idea if it's any good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Hi, I have the O gauge CRA drawing and a 00 Skinley Drawing. The Skinley drawing is I think OK for 00 and is still available from Phil Bryce 01273 581265. best wishes, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted December 5, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 5, 2012 Thank you gentlemen, I have the November 1955 Railway Modeller on order and a PM from an RMWEBer offering a drawing. Argos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted December 8, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2012 November 1955 Railway modeller has arrived and the drawing does indeed appear to be a good one. Thanks all. Argos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted December 12, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 12, 2012 By way of update I've now spent some time studying the Railway Modeller drawing, the drawing provided by and RMWEBer and the 2mm etch of the locomotive purchased from the Worsley Works (http://www.worsleywo...m_Loco_Kits.htm) The Railway Modeller drawing appears to have an error in that the bunker is about 1ft short. This is only 2mm in the scale modelled but significant and noticeable. The picture below shows both drawings and the etch in section:- I am aware that the water capacity increased through the build period, which in itself was quite long starting in 1900 with the final 10 locomotives being out-shopped by the LMS in 1925. However, looking through the photos I have in various sources I cannot find a short bunkered example. The photo below seems typical across the class and is the intended subject 55222. Does anyone out there know the answer or is the drawing wrong? I am keen to know as there are a few other discrepancies between drawing and the etch (e.g. the cab spectacals are at different centres), I'd like to get the model right! I wonder if the Railway Modeller drawing draftsman Mr Emslie realised his work would be critiqued 60 years after he drew it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Hi, I know that measuring paper drawings is not the right way to do it but quickly putting a rule over the two drawings I have gives the cab rear to end of bunker size of 36mm on the O gauge one and 20.5mm on the 00 one.Both drawings seem to show the front and rear spectacle plates as being identical. Dr John Emslie was usually pretty accurate but he was really a GNof S enthusiast. I presume he did this drawing for his own use as by that time some of these locos had been drafted in to work some of the GNofS branches. I think this pre-dates BR selling off GA drawings so he probably measured up a real loco at a windswept Moray Coast terminus in which case an error in one dimention is probably quite forgivable. A lot of drawings from this period have been found to have dimentional errors as "modern" railway modellers/historians have access to more material and the pioneers had to clinb over the original with a tape measure. best wishes, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted December 13, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 Ian, Thanks for the information above, the drawing in the Railway Modeller measure just over 4 feet, so is about a foot short. I appreciate that when this drawing was done it was probably done the hard way, no search engines to find photos to quickly check appearance! Could I trouble you to check the Spectacles centres? On the Etch these are at 4ft centres and on the drawing 5ft centres. Unfortunatley my other drawing is only an elevation. Checking photos, I am inclined to think the drawing is correct, which will be a challenge during the build! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Hi, The O gauge drawing is 30.5mm between centres or 4ft 6in. 4mm Skinley gives 16.5mm just over 4ft. It would not work with 5ft centres as the openings would pretty well reach the outside of the cab. The windows ( O gauge) are just over 10mm dia in the clear and 12mm over the frame. Overall width of cab/bunker 47.5mm. best wishes, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted December 13, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 Ian, Many thanks for your time. Much appreciated. It sounds like I can use the etch unadulterated Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flubrush Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Ian, Thanks for the information above, the drawing in the Railway Modeller measure just over 4 feet, so is about a foot short. I appreciate that when this drawing was done it was probably done the hard way, no search engines to find photos to quickly check appearance! There were two versions of the 439 class and the later Pickersgill version had alterations to the wheelbases which were lengthened. I can't find confirmation if the frames were lengthened as well, which, if they had been, might have meant a longer bunker. For what was the standard tank class of the Caledonian, there are no actual official drawings of it in the NRM/OPC lists but there are drawings of the Y59 order for a batch of the 92 class condensing tank which was the basis for the Mcintosh 439 class minus the condensing apparatus. NRM drawing number 3/GW/12502/E(2 sheets). A friend was looking for a 439 drawing some months ago and I did a lot of digging around for him at the time. Jim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted December 14, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 14, 2012 Cheers Jim. According to Locomotives Illustrated 144 (LMS Scottish Passenger Tank Locomotives) the later engines had 6ft wheel base bogies instead of the usual 5ft 6 inch, looking through the photos there does not appear to be a corresponding increase in frame length the rear bunker apears the same length for all builds. The photo extract I posted above is of 55222 (part of the 1914 build, the longer wheelbase build commenced in 1915) and exhibits the long bunker. I think Ian's postulation above is the most likely explanation for the discrepancy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottW Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I’ve been a bit late picking up on this thread, and even later getting round to posting a reply. With help from Jim I have been doing some research into the 439 class with a view to scratchbuilding a model in S-Scale. Information and photographs of the class can be found in Locomotives Illustrated #144 and LMS Locomotives Vol. 3 written by Bob Essery & David Jenkinson. Three distinct versions of the 439 class were built, the original being built by McIntosh, then by Pickersgill and finally by Nasmyth, Wilson for the LMS. The Pickersgill locomotives differed slightly from the McIntosh version in that they had a longer wheelbase bogie. On the McIntosh locomotives the distance from the trailing wheel, to the centre of the bogie, was 11’ 9”; the wheel base of the bogie being 5’ 6”. Pickersgill increased the distance from the trailing wheel, to the centre of the bogie, to 12’ 0” and increased the bogie wheelbase to 6’ 0”. The other difference between the two versions was that Pickersgill removed the rear sandbox from inside the cab and fitted it below the side tanks. The Nasmyth, Wilson version pretty much mimicked the Pickersgill locomotive except that the water capacity was increased; McIntosh/Pickersgill locomotives had a water capacity of 1,270 gallons and the Nasmyth, Wilson locomotives 1,380 gallons. Nasmyth, Wilson achieved the slightly greater water capacity by increasing the length of the side tanks from 10’ 5 1/2” to 10’ 9 7/8”. As previously mentioned scale drawings do exist and the two which I have found are a Skinley 4mm drawing and a 7mm drawing from the CRA. Unfortunately I haven’t managed to source a GA drawing of the original McIntosh locomotive but there is a copy of the GA produced by Nasmyth, Wilson for their LMS version. As Jim pointed out the 439 class was a direct development of the final series of 92 class locomotives (sometimes regarded as the 879 class) but without the condensing gear, GA drawings of both these classes also exist. All these GA drawings are held in the NRM and copies can be purchased from them. So with regards to your question on the size of the bunker, the size of the bunker did not change and all three versions of the 439 had the same size cab/bunker. The width of the cab was 6’ 6” and the distance between the spectacle centres being 4’ 2”. I hope this information is of some use to you and I look forward to seeing the finished product. Regards, Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted January 27, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 27, 2013 Thanks for the response Scott, you've confirmed my suspision about the Emslie drawing. Regards Argos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 I am looking to source drawings for the Caley Macintosh 439 0-4-4t - any scale - any era. [...] I am not a member of the Caledonian Railway Society Do you need to be? I thought they sold their drawings to anyone off their stand at shows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasp Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Do you need to be? I thought they sold their drawings to anyone off their stand at shows. I can confirm that drawings are available to all at exhibitions Jim P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_man Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I am painting a 1:76 CR 439 Class 0-4-4T in Caledonian Railway livery for a customer and need to source a pair of etched cabside numberplates. I have been unable to find any listed at my usual suppliers - Fox and Modelmaster or by doing a Google search. Does anyone know of a supplier? Thanks in advance, Steve Canada Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasp Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 My friend, Allan Ferguson has a number of plates, among which there may be something suitable allanferguson@tiscali.co.uk Alternatively, try asking on the CRA forum (crassoc.org.uk/forum) Jim P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_man Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 My friend, Allan Ferguson has a number of plates, among which there may be something suitable allanferguson@tiscali.co.uk Alternatively, try asking on the CRA forum (crassoc.org.uk/forum) Jim P Thanks Jim, I shall contact Allan. Steve Canada Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_man Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Thanks Jim, I shall contact Allan. Steve Canada Thanks to Jim and his friend Allan, a pair of CR 439 0-4-4T ex DJH kit numberplates arrived in this morning's mail - only 6 days after posting my original query! Steve Canada Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted July 20, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 20, 2013 By way of completeness, for anyone searching in the future, the July August 2013 Railway Modeller contains an article and drawings of the early batch (upto 1914) 439 tanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjgardiner Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 By way of completeness, for anyone searching in the future, the July 2013 Railway Modeller contains an article and drawings of the early batch (upto 1914) 439 tanks. That's good to know, good thing we are so far behind on UK magazines in Canada, i should still be able to find that issue on the shelves and obtain a copy for when i eventually get around to building a model of the first steam locomotive i remember seeing as a kid at Bo'Ness while visiting my grandparents -Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Alder Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Without seeming to be a pedant, but in the interests of those without easy access to copies, the dated issue with this drawing is actually the August 2013 Railway Modeller, although it is on sale in July. HTH, Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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