5Bel Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Hi All, Inspired by Colin Parks' 2Hal build, I went into the loft to bring out my Blacksmith 4Sub with the intent to finishing it. I bought this many years ago for £18 per coach which seemed good value at the time. It was my first foray into etched brass kit building and so far it is only lack of patience on my part that has stopped it's completion. The parts in the kit are good with pre formed sides and roof. The castings are excellent, but the lamp tops need to be replaced with brass ones. I used Southern Pride. I finished one of the trailer cars and sprayed it green, but now I want the unit finished in Blue so I have srtipped it back to bare metal. The bogies look the same as the Roxey ones and are excellent. Cab front folded Door bumpers and hinges fittted Hinges and bufferbeam. I have built two of the coaches as per the instructions with removable roof, but I couldn't see a way of motorising the unit, so the other motor coach has been built with a removable floor. DMBS with removable floor DMBS with removable roof and detailed. Bogies are the same as Roxey kits. TS before stripping. The kit comes complete with it's own power bogie kit but I couldn't get it to work, so this one will be powered by a Hornby 5pole bogie. I just have to work out how to get it in! I still have one Trailer Second in it's unopened box. The instructions are good and there is also a history of the class and some prototype photos included. It is going to be quite a long haul getting this one up and running and as long as my enthusiam for it doesn't wane, I will have something that you don't often see. Cheers for now, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Hi Ian, That looks to be a very good kit and well built too. I thought you were making a model of the 1st series 4 SUB, so it came as a surprise to see these pictures of a 1948 production series 4 SUB . The trailer coach looks very handsome in green - pity to strip it. I am intrigued to know how the roofs can be made to be removable and why the designer of the kit thought to do it that way around. It seems best to keep the body and roof as one piece and have a separate chassis as you have done. Fitting the interior detailing in is going to be like getting a ship in a bottle, even if you are modelling one of the sets with open saloons! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 Hi Colin, Thanks for the comment. I have pondered the interior question for quite a few years! I have some full width seats which will go in from the roof, but it is going to be a bit challenging to get them all in with the partitions as well. I agree about keeping the body and chassis separate. I am going to try and build the remaining trailer car this way. If that goes well I will try and desolder the other two and rebuild them. The green paint on the TS is from a Plasticote spray called lawn green. To my eye it looks quite a good match for BR(S) green. I sprayed it years ago so I don't know if it is still available. Cheers for now,Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Hi Colin, Thanks for the comment. I have pondered the interior question for quite a few years! I have some full width seats which will go in from the roof, but it is going to be a bit challenging to get them all in with the partitions as well. I agree about keeping the body and chassis separate. I am going to try and build the remaining trailer car this way. If that goes well I will try and desolder the other two and rebuild them. The green paint on the TS is from a Plasticote spray called lawn green. To my eye it looks quite a good match for BR(S) green. I sprayed it years ago so I don't know if it is still available. Cheers for now,Ian. Hi Ian, You realy are going to have trouble getting full-width seats into the completed trailer coach from above. From recent experience I can tell you it will be hard enough from below, as there is quite a curve on the 4 SUB bodyside that creates an undercut. On my Tin HAL it was possible to fit the full-width seating and partitions but easing the sides apart gently an popping the things in. It could be harder with brass sides and especially closer to the ends. Some 4 SUBs were built as open and semi-open saloons, others with compartments. The Brian Golding book lists units 4277-4299 as having open saloons, although it is unlcear from the book if both trailer coaches of these units were open saloons, but at least one in each unit seems to have been. (Apparently, there was a change of mind about interior layouts as passengers preferred the 'open' arrangement.) This information might influence your choice of unit number, as the saloon seating would be a much easier proposition to fit than the ship-in-a-bottle compartment situation. Then there is the question of luggage racks. The real things were fabricated from tubular steel and netting. They are probably so fine as to be best left off (unless there is someone out there who produces a very fine etch for these). All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted December 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 10, 2012 The 4SUBs of the 4277-4299 series had the same formation as the later SR-design 4EPBs, namely both motor coaches and one trailer were saloons, and the other trailer had 10 compartments. When the 4SUBs were withdrawn, their saloon trailers were used to replace compartment trailers in the 4EPBs in order to provide better security for passengers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 The 4SUBs of the 4277-4299 series had the same formation as the later SR-design 4EPBs, namely both motor coaches and one trailer were saloons, and the other trailer had 10 compartments. When the 4SUBs were withdrawn, their saloon trailers were used to replace compartment trailers in the 4EPBs in order to provide better security for passengers. Well RFS, That clarifies what was not clear in the book I quoted from. It would mean that Ian could indeed use the already-built trailer coach as the one with the open saloon layout and fit the full-width seats/partitions to the other trailer coach to be built with a removable chassis/floor. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted December 11, 2012 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 Hi, RFS, thanks for the info about the trailer coaches. Colin your idea could be the way forward. I haven't yet decided on a number for the unit so could do one from the batch mentioned. I am going to try and work out how I am going to get the motor bogie in over the next few days, so I will keep you posted of progress. Cheers for now, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Can you get the full width seating/partitions in by having three sections? Two outer sections and a separate centre that you drop in between? I suppose the down side is you get more joins to disguise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted December 11, 2012 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 Hi All, I have just read the history of the class that is included with the instructions. It seems most of the later survivors had their compartment tailers replaced with an open saloon. This makes my life a lot easier as I plan to model the unit in late 70's condition. The history notes were collated by Alistair Rolfe and go into some depth about unit formation changes. Rod I hadn't thought about doing the way you suggest, but it sounds like a good method. Cheers for now, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Hi Ian, I've just received the set of orignal 4 SUB instruction sheet from you. One question that did occur to me, having had a quick look through the plans is: is your unmade trailer coach a composite type with first class compartments used as third class? The 'green' coach is obviously all-third, so do you use a side from each etch? The composite coach would appear to need two different side etchings, so how did Blacksmith arrange that?! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 Hi Colin, My unmade trailer is a 10 compartment all third. I think Blacksmith used to sell the composite as a seperate kit. They also used to advertise a Tin Hal as well but I have never seen one. The kits may become available again now that Coopercraft has the Blacksmith range. Cheers for now, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Hi Colin, My unmade trailer is a 10 compartment all third. I think Blacksmith used to sell the composite as a seperate kit. They also used to advertise a Tin Hal as well but I have never seen one. The kits may become available again now that Coopercraft has the Blacksmith range. Cheers for now, Ian Thanks for the clarification Ian. Looking at the list of parts included in the kit, it seems a pretty good deal, with all underframe parts etc. included. There is even the mystery vee-hanger included on the motor coach chassis. I believe this is something to do with the hand brake system. The only small gripe I would have is that the resistance banks look to be a bit two-dimensional, but it's nothing that can't be easily rectified. All in all, a nice looking kit - and I don't say that about all kits! It would be interesting to see a Blacksmith Tin HAL model. All the best and looking forward to more pictures of your progress with this project. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Interesting that Ian (5BEL) had a problem with the motor bogie. Mine had its motor bogie pre-built but I have never been able to get it to run properly and I doubt that I would have done any better if I had built it myself. I was looking at getting a Black Beetle ... or, more likely, two Black Beetles as I don't think one would cope with the weight of the four car unit. Mine came with one motor coach (DMBS) half-built and it too has the roof loose with the chassis soldered in so the seat-fitting problem has also been taxing my mind somewhat. I'll be watching the rest of this build with great interest, learning from Ian's mistakes (sorry, Ian!!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Hi SRman, Thanks for the comment. Mistakes are how we all get better, and I have made a few so far on this one. I started it years ago when my soldering wasn't the best and I really didn't have a clue about etched brass coach building. I tried making the Blacksmith motor bogie but failed miserably. I still don't see how they would have worked!! Cheers for now, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Thanks for the clarification Ian. Looking at the list of parts included in the kit, it seems a pretty good deal, with all underframe parts etc. included. There is even the mystery vee-hanger included on the motor coach chassis. I believe this is something to do with the hand brake system. The only small gripe I would have is that the resistance banks look to be a bit two-dimensional, but it's nothing that can't be easily rectified. All in all, a nice looking kit - and I don't say that about all kits! It would be interesting to see a Blacksmith Tin HAL model. All the best and looking forward to more pictures of your progress with this project. Colin Hi all. Colin, I've been looking into the question of the 'V' hangers and, after asking my nipper and looking at photos, they do, indeed, carry the linkage from the Handbrake pedestal, on the Secondman's (off)side of the cab, via bevel gears, cranks and levers, to the actuating arm / lever of the brake piston. You'll notice that the hangers are always on the Secndman's side of the U/f, close to the inner end of the motor bogies on 4 car units and both motor and trailer cab end collector bogies on 2 car units, be them Westinghouse or EP Braked. Regards Frank. P.S. A wooden 'Paddle' would, often, be placed across the driving controls to signify that the Hand / Parking brake was 'On' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 It was good to read Ceptic's comments on the vee-hanger situation on these units. There would appear to be a pair of hangers on each vehicle fitted with a hand brake mechanism. The second vee-hanger would, I would presume, be bolted to the inner longitudinal chassis member on that side approx. 3ft in from the back of the solebar. There is certainly a lot going on underneath motor coaches in terms of equipment, pipes and so on. Good luck Ian! Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share Posted January 5, 2013 Hi All, Happy new year. Thanks for the comments, over the Christmas period I have made some progress on the 4Sub. I have made a new plastic floor and fitted the bracket for the motor bogie. The completed Roxey underframe eqipment has been fitted and the non powered bogie wired to the power bogie. I have decided to keep the two already built coaches as they are rather than unsolder them to get the old underframes out. The unbuilt one will be built the same as this one, with a plastic underframe. I need to get some Southern Pride roof conduit boxes for the roof, then it will be final detailing. Cheers for now, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Hi there Ian/5BEL and everyone, Colin has certainly got us all digging out our old EMU kits, your 4SUB is looking really good. I'm pleased to see you using the Hornby Ringfield type motor, always been one of my favourites, i think their reputation was always tainted by poor pick-up arrangements, but it's a good, tough and reliable unit. I've never been all that keen on the Tenshedo tram motor bogies, not really meaty enough for the job. I've built dozens of the Branchlines MB35 motor bogie, they can run well, but can be terribly noisy, especially when they "upgraded" the kit from nylon to metal gears! I've tried all kinds of things to quieten them down, the noise is no doubt generated by the worm-and-wheel arrangement. The sub-frame on the Branchline bogie needs beefing up as well, because they can be prone to twisting or sagging. I too have one of these Blacksmith 4SUBs to build on a rainy day, but haven't even touched it after all these years, i want to get a few other projects finished first. I bought mine in two halves, i.e. two cars per box and i seem to vaguely recall there was a trailer option available, both my trailers are 10-compartment. You mentioned their kit for the Tin Hal, i've got one unbuilt, i'll dig it out and post a pic later. I've also got a Branchlines 2HAL conversion body to do, designed to incorporate the Ian Kirk 2BIL, however it may be possible to build it on to the new Hornby 2BIL perhaps? Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted January 6, 2013 Author Share Posted January 6, 2013 Hi Brian, I agree with you about the Hornby motor bogie, especially the new 5pole version. I rewheel mine with Hornby's own 14mm coach wheels and when given some decent pick ups on the trailing bogie you get a smooth powerful unit. The Tenshodo units are ok for two coach units but I have never tried the Branchlines MB35. Thanks to Hornby, my half built Kirk 2Bil will now become something else, either a 4Lav or a de-icer. Cheers for now, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Hi Ian, Regarding Kirk 2-BILs, i was thinking along similar lines myself, wondering if one kit could provide the motor coach material for a 4-LAV, or use two kits if you don't want to convert the corridor sides to compartment style. It might be possible to create the trailer cars by using three Hornby Maunsells, two stretched to the longer length with re-arranged compartments? I'll check and compare the Kirk and Hornby roof profiles. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Hi All, I have made quite a bit of progress over the last few weeks. All the coaches are now substantially complete, with just the roof details to go on two of them. I decided to remove the floor from the two coaches that had them built in so I could get at the interior easily. For the interiors I will be using Replica seating units which I found are a nice snug fit. Here are some pics of progress. Almost all the detailing bits are included in the kit. I have replaced the lamp tops with Southern Pride products and the rainstrips are from plastic strip. Hopefully I should have the unit ready for undercoating by the end of the week. Cheers for now, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Nice. and the rainstrips are from plastic strip Stuck on with??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Nice. Stuck on with??? Hi, Miss Prism,the rainstrips are stuck on with superglue. They are quite solid, I know this because I overdid the superglue and had to rub it down and the strips did not move. Cheers for now, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Hi Ian, Just seen the latest pictures of your 4 SUB. The model looks really nice. Looking forward to seeing it finished. I am inspired to have a go at one now I've seen yours! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgeT Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Hi lan, l love to watch your build's as they progress as they are very inspirational to me and many other modellers, your build's alway's take me back to my youth in the 60s in Portsmouth where l used to travel on many of your model's to Havant, in green and blue, well done. George.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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