Newhaven Harbour

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin

 

More good photos, really enjoying this thread, can I just comment on the photo of 73128, there would be no reason for the driver to sit where he is and wait for the banner to be pulled off, he would pull down to the main signal, the function of a banner repeater is exactly what it says is to repeat the main aspect on or off where the main signal is badly sighted or obscured.

 

Ian

 

Dear Ian, I think my lack of signalling knowledge is being exposed! My banner repeater is mean to be linked to the outer home signal right around the curve to the left of the picture (and in my imagination obscured). I presume that the Class 73 driver would not pass the repeater and draw his train forward to the outer home signal - thus blocking the single main line. On this layout it is hard to get enough distance between signals but I had placed the outer home where it was so that the yard could be shunted using the main line without passing a signal. Should I have had a starter siganal for the goods loop?

[Colin parks]

I've dug out some early pictures of the layout under contruction downstairs in my workshop.

The layout actually started off as one piece of 76" x 10" WBP 22mm plywood with two yards of Peco track and two points tacked on it. I quite quickly realised that bullhead track was going to look better and have used SMP plastic base point kits and track for all the scenic boards. I wish that there was some ready-to-lay British flat-bottom track system as it would have been correct for modelling the running lines.

 

It was a further two years before I added the traverser and fourth board (shown with the track temporarily in place in the second and third photos. The original baseboard shown in the first picture had a section grafted onto the r/h front to give space for a second platform track, a siding and the station yard/approach. All baseboards are 2mm ply with 4,mm ply sides braced with softwood from front to back.

 

I found out that you can 'bend the SMP point bases to make curved turnouts when needed, which give a more realistic feel. The double slip is the only PCB/soldered point - made by SMP in the 70's - Cost ??8.50! I still have six H&M point motors dating from the 70's but use Peco switches for these and the nine Peco point motors too. These switches change the polarity of the point common crossings - with the switch rails bonded to the stock rails, it makes for reliable running. The signal box was the first structure that I completed. These photos all date from June 2008.

 

You can see that I do indeed still have the totem sign as mentioned in a previous post!

 

 

 

[karabuni]

Hi Barry. Thanks for those photos! I'm interested to see the ones of the beach sidings, however distant. It looks to be a view from earlier than I can remember of the location. By the time I went there, the sidings were roughly laid in a curve towards the camera position - over that area of water. The one of Kemptown is nice to see. there were quite a lot of detail differences between Kemptown, Seaford and London Road, so I'm think I can get away with my station as it has a bit of everything.

Something else for you to research: Was the building at Newhaven Harbour the original Terminus Station converted to a pub?

My Class 73 is just another flying guess at which ones really ran down to Newhaven. I certainly remember seeing one on a Saturday idling on the old West Quay spur.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Hello Colin,

 

The original station, was a platform known as Newhaven Wharf Station on the side of the London & Paris Hotel (demolished 1958) and later had another platform added where the current Seaford direction platform is - hence the footbridge going in opposite directions, and wrong for the current position of the up platform.

It seems that the building was never part of the station, as the railway offices & waiting room were to the right of the L & P Hotel. I don't remember what there was in the 1960s, but an photo from around that time shows a porter(?) on the platform - perhaps the building he used was in the way of the new ferry ramp and occupied the void in the sheeting of the present platform.

The building to the north of the pub was used to stable horses used for shunting until the 1950s.

 

The Pub (Shades/Harbour Tavern) is shown as PH on an undated map where the station is referred to as "Newhaven Wharf Station (London & Paris Hotel)". This is pre-Seaford branch and East Quay construction south/east of the hotel.

There's a picture here (undated, but quite a long time ago):

Shades Bar

This might be it too:

Newhaven: gateway to the North!

An aerial view for anyone not familiar with the area:

Newhaven Harbour

 

E6042 (73 114) visited on 26th September 1969, and E6035 (73 128) 29th June 1969.

In 1970/1 4COR units were used.

Class 40s & 45s worked Glasgow-Newhaven car sleeper trains in the 1960s (when did these finish?).

Units berthed at Seaford from May 1969 were 2 x 4COR, 1 x 4BUF, 4 x 2BIL, and 1 x CIG (7437). Numbers of units in the 70s: 5619, 6166, 7437, 80s: 7429, 3210.

 

Most of the stock detail is from the Oakwood "Newhaven & Seaford Branch" by R.W. Kidner (who coincidentally lived "near" you at Llandre in the 1990s - might still do so).

 

The brake van on the CCE tip is a D1890 van (first long LMS brake van).

 

Regards,

 

Barry.

[ianwales]

Dear Ian, I think my lack of signalling knowledge is being exposed! My banner repeater is mean to be linked to the outer home signal right around the curve to the left of the picture (and in my imagination obscured). I presume that the Class 73 driver would not pass the repeater and draw his train forward to the outer home signal - thus blocking the single main line. On this layout it is hard to get enough distance between signals but I had placed the outer home where it was so that the yard could be shunted using the main line without passing a signal. Should I have had a starter siganal for the goods loop?

 

 

Hi Colin

 

I am no signalling expert despite having worked in boxes for the last 30 years, I would relace the banner repeater with a ground signal which would perform the function you require and protect the main running line, but, when the signal was cleared would allow the trains to shunt forward to the outer home, or section signal in prototype terms. You wouldn't then need a seperate starting signal on the goods loop.

[Oldddudders]

 

Anyone able to say when 'orange' ducting for cables going under the track was introduced?

 

I can be confident it was well after 1974. The problem of On Track Plant cutting through invisible cables was quite old by then. I recall the Gatwick Airport low-aircraft tripwire being cut in 1967, putting all sigs to danger, of course, with not a plane in the air! When I went to Grove Park in 1976, there was an experiment with little wooden pegs being placed where an UTX (Under Track Crossing) existed. They bore a little "L" to instruct OTP operators to pick up their tines or whatever. Shortly before I arrived there, a locomotive had run through the buffers of Grove Park Shed No 1 Reception Siding in the dark - the driver believing himself to be on the adjacent Down Local. The Grove Park drivers put it about that the "L" was to tell Ashford drivers that this was the Local line!

[Colin parks]

Hello Colin,

 

The original station, was a platform known as Newhaven Wharf Station on the side of the London & Paris Hotel (demolished 1958) and later had another platform added where the current Seaford direction platform is - hence the footbridge going in opposite directions, and wrong for the current position of the up platform.

It seems that the building was never part of the station, as the railway offices & waiting room were to the right of the L & P Hotel. I don't remember what there was in the 1960s, but an photo from around that time shows a porter(?) on the platform - perhaps the building he used was in the way of the new ferry ramp and occupied the void in the sheeting of the present platform.

The building to the north of the pub was used to stable horses used for shunting until the 1950s.

 

The Pub (Shades/Harbour Tavern) is shown as PH on an undated map where the station is referred to as "Newhaven Wharf Station (London & Paris Hotel)". This is pre-Seaford branch and East Quay construction south/east of the hotel.

There's a picture here (undated, but quite a long time ago):

Shades Bar

This might be it too:

Newhaven: gateway to the North!

An aerial view for anyone not familiar with the area:

Newhaven Harbour

 

E6042 (73 114) visited on 26th September 1969, and E6035 (73 128) 29th June 1969.

In 1970/1 4COR units were used.

Class 40s & 45s worked Glasgow-Newhaven car sleeper trains in the 1960s (when did these finish?).

Units berthed at Seaford from May 1969 were 2 x 4COR, 1 x 4BUF, 4 x 2BIL, and 1 x CIG (7437). Numbers of units in the 70s: 5619, 6166, 7437, 80s: 7429, 3210.

 

Most of the stock detail is from the Oakwood "Newhaven & Seaford Branch" by R.W. Kidner (who coincidentally lived "near" you at Llandre in the 1990s - might still do so).

 

The brake van on the CCE tip is a D1890 van (first long LMS brake van).

 

Regards,

 

Barry.

 

Hi Barry, I'm grateful for the info on units and locos, especially verification that 73 128 had been to Newhaven. I have looked through old magazines and found an article in BRM by Ian Fleming on detailing a Dapol LMS brake, Sadly the wrong Diagram to that one in the picture.

As to the TOPS number carried by the 08 in a photo at Newhaven dated 1972, I'm still looking. There is a chance that 08 221 is the correct TOPS number for D3220 but there is no hard evidence - as yet.

 

One of those 4 CORs might well have been 3142. That is the preserved one and certainly ran to Seaford in the BR blue/full yellow end livery.

 

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

I'm posting a picture of 08 221 shunting a couple of ex SR brake vans. They would have been detached from their ballast train whilst it was being unloaded. This picture might prompt someone to tell me if I have got the 08 number right! I know that an 08 regularly shunted at Newhaven and the one number I do know is that of D3220, recorded there in 1972 in BR blue but with red coupling rods and bufferbeams. Did it become 08 221 under TOPS????

 

The model itself is by Hornby, almost 'straight out of the box' but with some weathering. It runs very well although a first it was binding a little at low speed. This turned out to have been caused by a tiny blob of yellow paint on one of the crankpins. Since that was remedied it has run faultlessly. It can run so slowly that at the two shows I have done so far I have to speed it up a little so as not to make it too boring.

 

I recollect seeing an 08 from Newhaven being thrashed through Lewes station at top speed on a Saturday after shunting the Beach Sidings. It was on its way back to Brighton. The driver must have been eager to get home!

 

The two brake vans are Cambrian kits aren't they karabuni?!

 

 

 

[Colin parks]

I can be confident it was well after 1974. The problem of On Track Plant cutting through invisible cables was quite old by then. I recall the Gatwick Airport low-aircraft tripwire being cut in 1967, putting all sigs to danger, of course, with not a plane in the air! When I went to Grove Park in 1976, there was an experiment with little wooden pegs being placed where an UTX (Under Track Crossing) existed. They bore a little "L" to instruct OTP operators to pick up their tines or whatever. Shortly before I arrived there, a locomotive had run through the buffers of Grove Park Shed No 1 Reception Siding in the dark - the driver believing himself to be on the adjacent Down Local. The Grove Park drivers put it about that the "L" was to tell Ashford drivers that this was the Local line!

 

Thanks Oldddudders. Your post does explain that the markings were born of bitter experience by the PW staff! The 'water pipe' warning that I copied was modern (there I go again!) and it had been applied with a spray can - very hard to reproduce. They did have spray cans in the 70's though.

So why then, would there have been yellow crosses and numbers painted on the platform face at approx. 30' intervals? I have copied that prototype feature too.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[zarniwhoop]

Class 40s & 45s worked Glasgow-Newhaven car sleeper trains in the 1960s (when did these finish?).

 

Are you sure those were to/from Glasgow ? I went on one in about 1964 (steam-hauled, I think) and the destination was either Stirling or Perth (I suspect Perth, but I'm no longer sure). By the next time we went to Scotland (maybe '69) the car sleepers went from Kensington Olympia (and to the other destination).

 

??en

[karabuni]

Are you sure those were to/from Glasgow ? I went on one in about 1964 (steam-hauled, I think) and the destination was either Stirling or Perth (I suspect Perth, but I'm no longer sure). By the next time we went to Scotland (maybe '69) the car sleepers went from Kensington Olympia (and to the other destination).

 

??en

 

The R.W. Kidner book actually says Stirling/Glasgow - Newhaven. These finished in the summer of 1969 according to the "Peak" site.

 

 

There should be pictures of the "Southerham" layout on RMweb but the link doesn't work, It must be in the archived old postings.

 

Nice detail including shunter & wagons in 1964, somewhere where the Fisher & Duforest warehouse was built:

beach sidings

This includes part of the Harbour box plus concrete platform fencing (also 1964):

4COR 3108

See revised link below

Sidings:

Tide mills

 

I couldn't possibly comment about the Brake vans.

 

Barry

[karabuni]

Great photo links Barry! Where do you manage to find such good stuff?!!

 

Cheers

Simon

 

Simon (in France, I believe),

 

From Google - various search words.

 

The second link should be:

Yer tiz: 4COR

(Forgot to copy url)

 

Not entirely relevant: if it happens, Newhaven Town signal box will be closed after resignalling due to be done 2009/10.

 

Barry.

[Colin parks]

The R.W. Kidner book actually says Stirling/Glasgow - Newhaven. These finished in the summer of 1969 according to the "Peak" site.

 

 

There should be pictures of the "Southerham" layout on RMweb but the link doesn't work, It must be in the archived old postings.

 

Nice detail including shunter & wagons in 1964, somewhere where the Fisher & Duforest warehouse was built:

beach sidings

This includes part of the Harbour box plus concrete platform fencing (also 1964):

4COR 3108

See revised link below

Sidings:

Tide mills

 

I couldn't possibly comment about the Brake vans.

 

Barry

 

Thanks for the links Barry. I must say that you find stuff that I can't! Good old Google. I will not enter the 'sleeper train' debate as it is before my time period for the model.

I shall be re-spraying the roof of my 73 matt black though and I'm giving thought as to how to remove its front lights without having a disaster!

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

I'm getting to grips with the new camera now that a friend has shown me where the 'super macro' focus setting is. This view shows 2 HAP 6059 just coming past the siganl box on its way into platform 2.

It's a picture which shows up my ragged paint edges a bit. I wish that someone produced transfers for the data panels for the front of EMUs - it would add some more character to the front end of this model. The headcode is deliberately modelled slightly out of line.

 

[Fat Controller]

The yellow crosses and numbers sound as though they're there to give some sort of datum for super-elevation or similar.

I hope I get to see this layout if you exhibit it- I might even try and bring my old boss along, as he was saying the other night that he reckoned it was watching long freights pulling away from Newhaven during childhood holidays that inspired him to work on the railways.

That car-sleeper was from Stirling, I think- I believe there was another portion which went to Brockenhurst, which lasted a bit longer. I wonder where they divided en-route?

[P.C.M]

I'm getting to grips with the new camera now that a friend has shown me where the 'super macro' focus setting is. This view shows 2 HAP 6059 just coming past the siganl box on its way into platform 2.

It's a picture which shows up my ragged paint edges a bit. I wish that someone produced transfers for the data panels for the front of EMUs - it would add some more character to the front end of this model. The headcode is deliberately modelled slightly out of line.

 

 

 

Hi Colin,

I think I have some Fox transfers somewhere that might be ok for the front of EMUs. I will have a look and let you know.

 

Cheers Peter,

[karabuni]

Thanks for the links Barry. I must say that you find stuff that I can't! Good old Google. I will not enter the 'sleeper train' debate as it is before my time period for the model.

I shall be re-spraying the roof of my 73 matt black though and I'm giving thought as to how to remove its front lights without having a disaster!

 

Colin

 

Rmweb seems to be a bit invisible in the evening ("Failed to open page")

 

Google: using site:.uk in the search field will restrict results to .uk sites. Using - (minus) can be used to remove the wrong sites from results. In the case of Newhaven, -leith -edinburgh will get rid of most sites referring to the Newhaven near Leith. Not sure if + works in the same way, but put in 48+97 and you'll get 145.

Use words that you expect might be on the sort of page you want to find, but not ones you don't, e.g. emu, rather than "electric" and "unit".

 

EMU numbers not to use - withdrawn by June 1970 and probably scrapped at Cashmore's, Cardiff:

2026/31/5/7/46-8/51/3/4/60/1/3/5/70/82/95;

2110/36/45/51/2;

2601/14/25/30/1/4/43/7/50/5/7/63/4/71/81/91;

3127,

5127

 

TOPS numbering of locos: e.g. Dn000 became last number of class or lowest vacant number

but D3000 was withdrawn 11/72 & never had a TOPS number.

All shunters were given new numbers filling gaps - D3004 was 08 001, and the last one, D4192 was 08 958

See:

08 list

08 220 was ppreviously D3290:

Preserved 08s

Top Menu does not work on this site, use browser back button or keyboard shortcut.

 

The Newhaven shunter D3220 became 08 152, withdrawn 7/80, not preserved.

Two pictures in 1972 here of D3220 (bottom of page):

D3220 at Newhaven

D3220 was working on the Kemp Town branch in July 1969; and D3669 there in April 1969. The latter became 09 005 and still in use 11/07!

 

The "Hornbys", 20001-3, were withdrawn in 1968 and the last loco-hauled boat train ran on 4th October 1970.

 

Motorail:

"A working of much interest that was discontinued after the summer 1969 timetable was the inter-regional service to Newhaven from the north, currently running to Stirling as a Motorail service. This had been instituted during 1958 as a through Glasgow - Eastbourne service, moving to Newhaven in 1964 to provide a connection with the cross channel car ferry service to Dieppe. Its long distance and roundabout route through London caused it to visit all of BR's regions."

(Took half an hour to pass over a bridge and then back under it on a different line, or might have under then over.)

See:

Motorail ending

I don't remember this, but there must have been an unloading ramp near the ferry. Cars were im/exported at Newhaven as the flat wagons with them on were parked in the down sidings parallel to New Road (Lewes side of Town LC)

 

This site has old maps of the BR system etc. and promising-looking links:

BR Maps etc.

such as Newhaven about 1940-50:

OS map of Newhaven

- worked with Firefox, but not Safari, IE has been cast into outer darkness so don't know.

 

RCH junction diagrams mid-Wales (does not include Newhaven!):

RCH map Central Wales

This will go quite big (technical term).

There are some diagrams for Sussex, but not Newhaven.

 

Barry.

[Colin parks]

Rmweb seems to be a bit invisible in the evening ("Failed to open page")

 

Google: using site:.uk in the search field will restrict results to .uk sites. Using - (minus) can be used to remove the wrong sites from results. In the case of Newhaven, -leith -edinburgh will get rid of most sites referring to the Newhaven near Leith. Not sure if + works in the same way, but put in 48+97 and you'll get 145.

Use words that you expect might be on the sort of page you want to find, but not ones you don't, e.g. emu, rather than "electric" and "unit".

 

EMU numbers not to use - withdrawn by June 1970 and probably scrapped at Cashmore's, Cardiff:

2026/31/5/7/46-8/51/3/4/60/1/3/5/70/82/95;

2110/36/45/51/2;

2601/14/25/30/1/4/43/7/50/5/7/63/4/71/81/91;

3127,

5127

 

TOPS numbering of locos: e.g. Dn000 became last number of class or lowest vacant number

but D3000 was withdrawn 11/72 & never had a TOPS number.

All shunters were given new numbers filling gaps - D3004 was 08 001, and the last one, D4192 was 08 958

See:

08 list

08 220 was ppreviously D3290:

Preserved 08s

Top Menu does not work on this site, use browser back button or keyboard shortcut.

 

The Newhaven shunter D3220 became 08 152, withdrawn 7/80, not preserved.

Two pictures in 1972 here of D3220 (bottom of page):

D3220 at Newhaven

D3220 was working on the Kemp Town branch in July 1969; and D3669 there in April 1969. The latter became 09 005 and still in use 11/07!

 

The "Hornbys", 20001-3, were withdrawn in 1968 and the last loco-hauled boat train ran on 4th October 1970.

 

Motorail:

"A working of much interest that was discontinued after the summer 1969 timetable was the inter-regional service to Newhaven from the north, currently running to Stirling as a Motorail service. This had been instituted during 1958 as a through Glasgow - Eastbourne service, moving to Newhaven in 1964 to provide a connection with the cross channel car ferry service to Dieppe. Its long distance and roundabout route through London caused it to visit all of BR's regions."

(Took half an hour to pass over a bridge and then back under it on a different line, or might have under then over.)

See:

Motorail ending

I don't remember this, but there must have been an unloading ramp near the ferry. Cars were im/exported at Newhaven as the flat wagons with them on were parked in the down sidings parallel to New Road (Lewes side of Town LC)

 

This site has old maps of the BR system etc. and promising-looking links:

BR Maps etc.

such as Newhaven about 1940-50:

OS map of Newhaven

- worked with Firefox, but not Safari, IE has been cast into outer darkness so don't know.

 

RCH junction diagrams mid-Wales (does not include Newhaven!):

RCH map Central Wales

This will go quite big (technical term).

There are some diagrams for Sussex, but not Newhaven.

 

Barry.

 

Thanks Barry, I can see you are better at research than me! I shall look on that list for the 08 number. I have seen the photos of D3220.

I am attaching a photo of the yard in your beach sidings link picture but taken in May 2009 looking west over a gate (out of picture to the left) into the area where the inset tracks curve round to the east. This gate gave access out to the actual beach sidings - they would have been back behind the camera position. A white sign with red letters (facing into the inset 'yard') still is attached to the gate post and reads: 'Speed limit 5mph'. In the undergrowth you can still see the ground frame above the old tyre to the right. There is also a red painted buffer stop of welded construction somewhere in there.

The banana van traffic was loaded by the long building across the yard.

 

[KevinWalsh]

Hi Colin,

 

I don't know if this helps you at all, but on wikipedia there is a page that has all the numbers of 08's including date of manufacture, and current location where known. Also useful for tracking down history of other locos and multiple units.

 

 

 

Kev

 

 

[Colin parks]

A postscript to the 08 question: I've just looked up the number on the web site that karabuni gave the link for. I shall be re-numbering my loco to 08 152 ASAP. Fortunately, it was not withdrawn until July 1980. There are detail differences between the Hornby model and this particular loco, but it's pretty close except for the steps up the front of the bonnet. Watch out for a photo update on this.

 

A postscript to the car traffic that karabuni mentions: I remember the car trains just about. The cars were made by Simca - I can be sure of that. Our ex-neighbour, Len Wyman was a driver/ mechanic for the company that handled the imports. I think that the cars were driven from the quayside (by the 'marine' station) and stored at the New road sidings until they were loaded onto the car trains - an interesting modelling possibility. What wagons were used karabuni?!

 

Thanks to Kevin Walsh too for his suggestions on this matter.

[thirty2a]

Hello,

just wanted to say this layout is really inspiring me, i love the 2 Hap must get mine finished one day. Keep up the great work.

Tony.

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin, I think I have some Fox transfers somewhere that might be ok for the front of EMUs. I will have a look and let you know. Cheers Peter,

Well Peter, I'm embarassed but grateful that you, all the way over there in Australia, know more about EMU transfers than me! I shall take a look on the Fox Transfers web site later. Colin, (location: not very near the beach and you wouldn't want to go to it if you were!).

[Fat Controller]

A postscript to the 08 question: I've just looked up the number on the web site that karabuni gave the link for. I shall be re-numbering my loco to 08 152 ASAP. Fortunately, it was not withdrawn until July 1980. There are detail differences between the Hornby model and this particular loco, but it's pretty close except for the steps up the front of the bonnet. Watch out for a photo update on this.

 

A postscript to the car traffic that karabuni mentions: I remember the car trains just about. The cars were made by Simca - I can be sure of that. Our ex-neighbour, Len Wyman was a driver/ mechanic for the company that handled the imports. I think that the cars were driven from the quayside (by the 'marine' station) and stored at the New road sidings until they were loaded onto the car trains - an interesting modelling possibility. What wagons were used karabuni?!

 

Thanks to Kevin Walsh too for his suggestions on this matter.

I think there may also have been British Leyland export traffic from there at various times. Car traffic would have been carried on BR or privately-owned Carflats, which were carriage underframes of various origins, fitted with drop-down ends, side rails and wooden floors. Sadly, no kit or R-T-R model exists, and the nature of the sides makes them pigs to try and scratch-build or kit-bash.

A bit later than your period, I suspect, but there was ISO container traffic to/from Newhaven- from the one photo I've seen (in one of the Shannon/Rhodes 'Freight Only' books), it looks as though it might be MoD traffic. I wouldn't be surprised to see other MoD stuff passing through in vans, rather like the traffic in more recent times from Ridham Dock.

[P.C.M]

Well Peter, I'm embarassed but grateful that you, all the way over there in Australia, know more about EMU transfers than me! I shall take a look on the Fox Transfers web site later. Colin, (location: not very near the beach and you wouldn't want to go to it if you were!).

 

 

Hi Colin,

There is a pic below of the sheet I was thinking of, my memory unfortunatley is not that good as the ones I was thinking would be of use are white on black which isn't much good to you.

I had a look at some of my photos and it would seem the white on black data panels were used on EMUs and DMUs during the 80s.

 

It may be worth getting in touch with Precision labels as he could make some up for you,

 

I have also attached one of my pics of two 2 HAPs on the Lymington Branch.

 

Cheers Peter,

[pwr]

Colin

 

Any pictures with the 4-Cep in yet?

 

regards

 

 

Paul Rowlinson

[Lyddrail]

Colin,

 

Love the layout, well done.

 

Regards EMU front data panels only source was Woodhead who did unit codes, depot codes and I think some data panel wording in black. Don't think anyone else does anything. For these data panels the writing is very small, you could get away with small black writing off any other transfer, or do some freehand with edding pen.

 

Cheers.