Goods Train Operation

[The Stationmaster]

Was the Royston cut fitted then? To achieve the required brake force, did it have to precede the unfitted Letchworth vehicles?

There is no requirement indicated there for it to be fitted (Letter F on the right would indicated that of course) so it could be fitted or unfitted and if it was seen as regular need to supply Brake Force the marshalling would be sub-divided as Royston (F) followed by Royston (UF).

 

Andy might know what the Royston traffic was and that would in turn probably let us know if it was fitted or unfitted but equally it could be that the Letchworth fitted portion alone regularly gave enough Brake Force - or the train was declassified to Class 9 when it didn't.

[LNERGE]

I can't find an entry for Royston at the moment but the chances are the fitted wagons were BGV's and the unfitted were older style grain wagons.

 

[28XX]

Was the Royston cut fitted then? To achieve the required brake force, did it have to precede the unfitted Letchworth vehicles?

Sorry, this post was badly worded, with an assumption.

 

What I should have asked is;  why were the fitted and unfitted portions for Letchworth separated by the Royston cut?

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry, this post was badly worded, with an assumption.

 

What I should have asked is;  why were the fitted and unfitted portions for Letchworth separated by the Royston cut?

 

I would think the logic was as follows -

1. The train needed some Brake Force to be provided by a fitted head and there was sufficient flow of fitted wagons for Letchworth to allow them to give the required Brake Force, and

2. The Royston traffic needed to be at the head of the train to give the easiest and quickest means of detaching it but it couldn't go extreme front as it didn't reliably include enough fitted wagons to give the required Brake Force (and the nature of the route required that Brake Force before reaching Royston).

[28XX]

Thank you Stationmaster, I was on the right track.

[andyrush]

Light Engines

 

An integral part of railway operation was the need for ‘light engines’, that is, locomotives proceeding hither and thither without any vehicles. As these are seldom modelled (except as short distance moves to and from loco sheds), I thought I would write something about why they should feature on most layouts. The first thing to say is that most short distance LE movements were not shown in WTT’s (on the timing pages, at least, see below) and quite a few of the regular longer distance ones didn’t either. This was often because the ‘balancing’ of diagrammed locos and crews was usually performed at the end of the timetabling process and after the actual WTT had gone to the printers. Long distance light engines over congested bits of railway were, however, usually properly timed, although whether they actually ran or not would be subject to circumstances on the day.

 

Most lines had a preponderance of loaded traffic in one direction and empties in the other and this usually resulted in planned light engine movements, for example the Summer 1953 WTT for Peterborough to London shows the following:

1066 D 4.50 am Ferme Park – New England

1246 MO 6.46 am Ferme Park – New England

1156 D 12.10 pm Kings X MPD – New England

1294 D 9.00pm Ferme Park – New England

974 SO 9.00 pm Kings X MPD – New England

1312 SUN 10.25 am Kings X MPD – New England

1332 SUN 12.30 pm Kings X MPD – New England

950 SUN 12.50 pm Kings X MPD – New England

 

There were no comparable moves in the Up direction

 

Then there were movements for trip workings – in colliery areas, the first leg of a trip would often be an engine and brake (or brakes), occasionally with the brake(s) being propelled, with the final movement being the same. Usually, the brake(s) would be picked up in a marshalling/goods yard (where the guard normally signed on duty) but there were instances of brake vans being stabled in loco depots (Frodingham was one such that I remember being told of). And of course, at some places there was a continuous procession of engines between engine sheds and outlying yards, often two and three coupled together.  There would also be many occasions when goods trains terminated en route for one reason or another and the normal result would be a light engine to wherever the train was bound for or where the traincrew was based, but the Control Office might step in and decide something different

 

Talking of engines coupled together, there used to be a ‘train of engines’ (maximum 5) run down from Stratford to March on a Sunday morning, often with quite a catholic assortment of locos, although WD’s and K3’s were the norm in the 1950’s. Moving away from Goods Trains, in pre-electrification days Stratford depot used to send ‘trains’ of engines in the early morning to outlying stations where coaching stock was stabled for the start of service – Wood Street, Loughton, Tottenham and Palaces Gates all figuring (there was often a gas tank wagon involved as well). Although an attempt was made to use locos to work empty stock into Liverpool Street before being released to work their own trains, this wasn’t always possible and the sight of light engines coupled going up from Stratford wasn’t uncommon.

 

One of the characteristics of GC section LNER WTT’s was the inclusion of ‘off shed’ and arrival times at yards for depots in each area, which can be extremely useful for anyone modelling an actual station or a ‘based on’ location. A page from the summer 1939 Doncaster District No.3 Section publication is included below.

 

[LNER4479]

Now then Andy, never let it be said that no-one takes any notice of your wise words

These fours wagons newly arrived from Robbies Rolling Stock. Going back to your earliest discussion point in this thread, I hope you will agree a touch more prototypical for Grantham's requirements?

 

Here they are on the workbench, in amongst other wagons (of varying degress of authenticity!) All now await the 3-link treatment and varying degrees of weathering. Behind the wagons, one of my K3's awaits being paired up with an earlier flared tender and retro-converted to right hand drive to add a bit of variety. Probably going to make it a low numbered one like No.153 - look out for it in due course.

 

I recognise the limitations of the standard Dapol mineral wagon being used as the basis of these new arrivals (10 foot versus 9 foot wheelbase for a start) but they'll do for me when I have such a large number to amass to create the overall picture. Thanks for the 'encouragement' (in the form of constructive criticism) to help me get things right (or at least right-er!)

[andyrush]

I'm very impressed!

 

I had a load of Dapol PO's thrown at me once ("in case they are any good to you") and then I had the good luck to see some Bachmann 9ft chassis' minus couplings and wheels which were going at £1 each on a 'Bring & Buy' stall, so I made an offer and got all 28 of them! The spare 10ft chassis gradually got used up for other projects.

 

Since I posted the bit about PO's through Grantham, I've been looking at lots of pictures and, although the photographers were concentrating on the steamy thing on the front, in a lot of the pictures there are plenty of 'company' wagons with coal in. A quick repaint of any 7 plank 1923 RCH PO wagon into NE livery would cater for them without offending too many of the wagon cranks (ducks and runs for cover!). There are quite a lot of sets of 3 Bachmanns around at £15 a box (at the NRM shop a few weeks back, for example) which is pretty good price these days, I reckon.

 

The other wagons that stand out are groups of longer ones (presumably Loco Coal) and quite a number of 5 planks, although their liveries cannot be made out.

 

Andy

[devondynosoar118]

For non mineral traffic plenty of sheeted open wagons with a variety of odd shaped bits under the sheets would also be good for the pre ww2 period, plus as most of the tarps covered the livery except the very bottom, including the wagon number then you don't have to change as much livery on them. Putting the majority of goods in covered vans really gets going under BR, with most lines in the inter war period having roughly 3:1 of open wagons (various types) to vans.

I would look at the Mathieson 4mm PO wagon kit, their 2mm one is superb and the bigger one looks as good.

[andyrush]

Fitted goods trains on the East Coast in LNER days had a high proportion of vans and containers in the years up to WW2 judging by what little photographic evidence there is although I take the point that there were a lot of sheeted highs about as well. Not all highs were fitted, however, and I think the LNER built quite a number of their steel highs unfitted.  And even if you put sheets on the opens, you've still got to letter and number the sheets!

[devondynosoar118]

Not if you buy Smiths pre printed ones!

I suspect a lot of the later steel highs and some of the wooden bodies were probably piped rather than fitted so they could run in these fitted trains, certainly they were under BR. You should try doing wagon numbers in 2mm, that is a real eye strain!

I forget that down here in western land we had more part fitted slower trains than the East coast. Am I right in thinking that many of the LNER designs for fitted stock were taken up by the Ideal Stocks committee after nationalisation and later formed the basis of the BR designs?

I still think sheeted wagons generally are under represented in model form. If they can justify a P2 then surely some sheeted stock could be considered in RTR or a cleverer way of modelling sheeting utilised? I don't mind doing it the manual way with printed sheets, PVA and thread/ wire but it does take a while. Next time I do a few I will put a link onto this thread or a how to if people would like to see my methods.

[Fat Controller]

The only LNER types that I think were adopted by the Ideal Stocks Committee were the 12t steel high, 22t Plate (both were originally built in both fitted and unfitted forms) and the 20t brake van. Many unfitted Highs and Plates were updated with fitted brake gear in BR days- the Highs which had been so treated could be identified by 4-shoe RCH brake gear, as opposed to the LNER 8-shoe type:-

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenmerchandisesteel/h2de3f7d5#h2de3f7d5 shows the BR-fitted brake gear

12t vans and wooden-bodied Highs were also vac-fitted in BR days.

[jwealleans]

A quick repaint of any 7 plank 1923 RCH PO wagon into NE livery would cater for them

 

Dear me, Mr. Rush, you don't think you're getting away with that, do you?  Just because I'm on my sickbed.... may I draw your attention to steel end stanchions, grab handles on the end door (mainly LMS, that one), capping straps, end door fastening..... and that's without opening my John Hayes volume. 

 

"Wagon cranks", eh?  Just for that I expect you to stand in front of 'Thurston' at Nottingham and spot the (one) deliberately removed vacuum pipe.

[andyrush]

"Wagon cranks", eh?  Just for that I expect you to stand in front of 'Thurston' at Nottingham and spot the (one) deliberately removed vacuum pipe.

I'll have a (full sized) red card ready in the event that I am successful!

 

Hope you are off your sick bed by then...

 

Andy

[workev2000]

I've only just found this thread thanks to the signature of LNER4479! Fascinating stuff, and I wondered if I may ask a couple of questions....

 

In December 1956 over the first 2 weeks of the month records show that a Gateshead pacific worked a Colwick-KX freight (presumably from Grantham). Unfortunately I haven't got the info in front of me, but I believe it to be a Class C working. It is unusual because the WTT shows it as being a through working. I can only assume that the working was to get the Gateshead loco from Grantham to KX to work north again on a Gateshead turn.

 

So the first question I have is about engine changes on freights at Grantham. There are 4 groups of trains, the first are through workings between London and the north, some of these were recessed at Grantham, but did they ever change engines? The second group worked between Colwick and New England (with some through to London). I assume that these did not change engines at Grantham, but may have recessed for crew changes. the third group are any pick up freights between New England and Doncaster/York. Within this group I assume we're the loco coal workings (I believe that Grantham used Yorkshire coal). Finally there we the High Dyke workings, shared between Grantham O2s and Frodingham WDs (and later 9Fs).

 

Which, if any, of these workings would have changed engines at Grantham on a regular basis?

 

Looking at overhead pictures of Grantham from 1957, it seems that most of the local freight traffic was dealt with on the Up yard, presumably shunted from the Down side as required. Most of the wagons in the Down Yard were mineral wagons, including I presume the loco coal. I have never seen any pictures of shunting at Grantham, so I presume that this took place at night when the ability to shunt across the main lines was easier?

 

I suspect that the freight traffic in the mid-1950s was not too different than pre-war with respect to coal and industry at Grantham.

 

Ian

[LNER4479]

Hi Ian,

 

I'm conscious that I'm probably not the most authoritative person to respond to your queries; a lot of my research information has been gleaned off others (and not least from the LNER Forum 'Return to Grantham' thread, which is where I think you came in!). However, from what I know...

 

There is evidence of some loco changing on goods trains passing through Grantham (I do prefer the term 'goods' for the steam age railway - especially pre-war!), but I don't believe it was extensive. Grantham shed was predominantly a passenger depot; my guess would be that Peterborough would have been a more likely place for the longer distance goods train re-engine-ing. For example, I have read that when 4771 'Green Arrow' first entered service (in 1936) on the new fast freight service to Scotland (latterly referred to as the 'Scotch Goods') it only worked it as far as Peterborough (from King's Cross, where it was shedded). However, I do have one specific reference to a through goods service changing engine at Grantham - train 257, Class C goods Aberdeen to King's Cross scheduled to stop 11.51pm to 12.6am for a loco change at Grantham South (this from information Andy Rush kindly posted earlier on this thread, #88 & #98).

 

There was some loco changing associated with the High Dyke iron ore workings; locos were habitually changed in the northbound direction (handy for the depot), not least because there was no turntable at High Dyke, so the loaded trains had to return from High Dyke with the loco running tender first. If it was not a Grantham loco (as was more usually the case pre-war), the loco would still detach from its train and use the shed turntable so as to be facing the right way for the remainder of its journey northwards. 15 minutes were allowed for this manoeuvre.

 

In terms of shunting, there was a useful post on the 'Return to Grantham' thread some while ago, giving details of the shunting turns off the shed (from the Sept 1960 WTT), as follows:

Grantham Loco - Emergency Engine - Continuous weekdays and Sundays at Grantham South
Grantham Pass - No 1 - 7.30pm Sunday to 4.20am Sunday - Up Passenger shunting
Grantham Pass - No 2 - 6.0am to 10.15 am, 5.45pm to 9.0pm Monday to Saturday, 10.0am to 4.30 pm Sunday - Shunting in Carriage Sidings.
Grantham Goods - No 3 - 6.0am to 9.30pm Monday, 6.35am to 9.35pm Tuesday to Saturday, 11.0pm to 7.0am Monday to Saturday - Down Goods Yard. also works 6.50am trip to Ambergate Yard, returning 7.30am.
Grantham Goods - No 4 - 3.30pm to 9.30pm Monday to Friday, 1.30pm to 8.30pm Saturday - Ambergate Yard shunting.
Grantham Goods - No 5 - 3.00pm to 11.0pm Monday to Friday - Up Goods Yard (takes up No 3 pilot duty from 10.0pm)
Grantham Goods - No 6 - 9.0am to 5.0pm Sunday (Q) - Goods Yard shunting.

Quite a bit going on there(!) and certainly not all at night time. Grantham shed had a J69 allocated for shunting duties and I have seen at least one picture of it (in the Frank Cossey book) shunting in the Down Yard (in the day time!). There is also a lovely picture of a horse(!) shunting a wagon in the Up yard. Probably not as late as 1960 but I think it was at least post-war (c.1948).

 

Hope this helps.

[westerner]

This appears to be a valuable resource.

[Ken.W]

Special Workings

Each issue of the WTT (summer and winter) was based on the previous one subject to ‘tweaks’ (or occasionally re-planning of a part of the service) to reflect changed commercial specifications or to achieve economies in train working. Broadly speaking, passenger trains were first on the graph (the means by which trains were pathed), with goods trains being fitted round them, although a lot of the overnight fast goods trains on the East Coast main line were pretty well sacrosanct, with the overnight sleeping car trains timings ‘adjusted’ to avoid them.

 

Andy    (My bold)

 

Thanks all, an interesting thread which I've just found, and not yet read all so apologies if this has been mentioned already..

 

There's been several mentions of the (rather) fast ECML express goods, and the fish trains in particular.  I've a copy (somewhere) of a 1960-ish, ECML Section, Freight WTT; the Up Fish trains, although running as Class C, have a column note instructing, to the effect of; 'Takes priority over all trains other than East Coast expresses', so yes, virtually sacrosanct high priority freights indeed