Dundee circa 1948-53

[Guest Gavw]

Hi,

 

I am looking for any information regarding loads/formations in the Dundee area for 1948/53 (or later). I am looking particularly at Tay Bridge station.

 

I know that exNBR, LNER stock etc would work through but did any LMS stock work through or did it all stop at Dundee West station?

 

I have access to timetables but if anyone has load diagrams and carriage formation information I would be grateful.

 

Any help given would be welcome. I am also building up a picture of the signalling of the area via another forum with a view to doing some modelling in the near future.

[Graham R]

I am looking for any information regarding loads/formations in the Dundee area for 1948/53 (or later). I am looking particularly at Tay Bridge station.

 

I know that ex NBR, LNER stock etc would work through but did any LMS stock work through or did it all stop at Dundee West station?

 

Hi Gavin,

 

The West station was closed on Sundays after (if memory serves) 1935, and all the Buchanan Street services (I would guess only two or three on Sundays) came into Tay Bridge via Buckie Junction/Central Junction, so you would have LMS stock on these pre-1948. George Robin's "Resorts for Railfans" article on Dundee in the December 1958 Trains Illustrated mentions that in summer, various Buchanan Street trains were regularly diverted past West station and continued east through Tay Bridge station as through services ... he mentions the 7.25am and 1.50pm Glasgow-Montrose, and a Saturday Perth-Arbroath service calling at Tay Bridge at 2pm; all had return services over the same route. I don't know for certain whether they had LMS stock but it would seem pretty likely.

 

regards

Graham

 

Edit: should have added that Robin also mentions the Tayport locals (six non-corridor coaches) had recently started to include some LMS and BR stock in addition to LNE.

[beast66606]

I have the Sectional Appendix (LMS Northern Section) for 1937 and all the 6 supplements, let me know if you want anything from them.

 

I also have at least one "opening hours" of signal boxes, but it's probably too late for your interest

[MRDEEDIESEL]

Would be of great interest if your book contained the opening hours of the Broughty Ferry Jct to Forfar North Junction line especially in the 50's/60's Boxes including Barnhill (Dundee),Monikie,Kingennie etc. Thanks.

[pH]

Are you interested in locals around Dundee, or only long-distance trains to and through Dundee? Because the line between Dundee (East) and Arbroath was a joint line - CR/NBR, then LMS/LNER. There's a 7-page article on the Dundee and Arbroath in 'Steam Days' for January 2008, with good pictures of trains and comments on their makeup. It appears that, after nationalisation, a common formation was an ex-LNER engine and ex-LMS coaching stock, though other combinations were possible.

[Guest Gavw]

Many thanks to those who have answered. Ph, I am interested in formations of anything that used Tay Bridge Station. 1937 is a bit early for what I am looking for, Beast66606 but thank you for the offer.

 

I was one of the last two apprentices through Dundee MPD, joining in 1981 and my local station was Broughty Ferry. I am toying with the idea of a layout based on somewhere in the Dundee area and the information from Graham in Switzerland regarding Dundee West being closed was something I was not aware of!

 

It is all interesting and should - once I get it all collated - provide some more insight into train working in the Dundee area c1948-50(ish)

 

Dundee-Arbroath was a joint LMS/LNER line, but VERY camera shy and almost everything I have seen has been LNER based hence my query re LMS stock.

 

If anyone has any carriage working diagrams I would be interested in seeing them and would cover postage costs and provide a DVDrom of any scans I did.

 

I am looking through my archive at home tomorrow as I have been away but I have lots of notes of guards logs form the Dundee area from the 1940s and 50s and will see what information they provide.

[pH]

Dundee-Arbroath was a joint LMS/LNER line, but VERY camera shy and almost everything I have seen has been LNER based hence my query re LMS stock.

 

That article contains 8 photos of D&A passenger trains, and most (all?) look as if they include ex-LMS vehicles. As I said, there's also comments in both the photo captions and the text about the makeup of trains. (There's even the number of a specific coach mentioned (SC20800M, if you're interested). 

I am interested in formations of anything that used Tay Bridge Station.

 

The author, who used the D&A to travel to work in Dundee, also mentions that at least one evening local to Arbroath left from Tay Bridge rather than Dundee East.

[MRDEEDIESEL]

I have that edition of the magazine despite being a diesel only fan. Great pictures and if i remember right it has a grainy picture of the rarely photographed bridge over the mainline at Barnhill.As i kid i remember walking along the trackbed at the Seven Arches viaduct Broughty Ferry and one summer evening armed with a screw driver  i removed the signal pulleys off the posts south of the viaduct.Most of them had LMS written on them.No idea what happened to them!! ;o(   A year or two later the whole embankment was lost to the onslaught of house building in the area!

[beast66606]

1937 is a bit early for what I am looking for, Beast66606 but thank you for the offer.

 

Sorry, one of my bad habits - not being clear.

 

The 1937 sectional appendix had 6 supplements issued at various dates to update it. The 1937 edition was current up to 1960 when a new one was issued.

Each supplement is cumulative, so we just need to pick the supplement most of interest to you, see if there are any changes around the area, and then use them, if not then the appendix is valid, so it's possible to get a picture of the signalling as it existed to within a couple of years. (although mistakes were not infrequent in official documentation)

[Guest Gavw]

PM'd to Beast66606 re the sectional appendices.

 

Just going through some of these guards logs from 1949 and they make interesting reading. I would love to drive or fire a V2 through Fife with 12/399 behind the tender! But it would be some slog out of Dundee up to Camperdown Jct. (The best I have fired - and it was a 2-6-2 albeit a two cylinder one - was 9 coaches at 73mph in Poland about four years ago!)

 

21.2.49                  7.25pm Edinburgh - Aberdeen 12 coaches for 399 tons. V2 838 to Dundee with a changeover to V2 827 on to Aberdeen. 15 mins late into Aberdeen with 2 against the loco 4 for a P Way slack at Barry and 9 mins total signals Haymarket central, Dalmeny and Thornton North.

 

16.7.49                  5.55am Dundee - Aberdeen Parcels 3 coaches for 81 tons B1 1132. 29 late into Aberdeen. 22 for signals at Dundee waiting for line clear. 5 for signals Stannergate to Easthaven (following 4.15 ex Waverley) then basically signals all the way to Kinnaber where the 4.5am Glasgow Central then held us up all the way into Aberdeen.

 

They make fascinating reading and cover a vast range of rail activities from Rugby Specials for Murrayfield to West Highland workings and even station workings. They give an insight into train working that spotters notes largely do not go into.

 

Hopefully all the information I can gather will, in the fullness of time make its way onto a CDrom. Its going to be a long job!

[Al Reid]

The Deecember 2012 and January 2013 issues of Railway Bylines had a superb feature on the harbour lines of this city with their ususal superb photos

[Guest Gavw]

Thanks for the "heads up" on the Railway Bylines articles. I have ordered the back issues!

 

Just got some carriage working info from 1948 and 1952, an LNER sectional appendix for 1947 and some more images of Dundee Tay Bridge Station (which for a main station was VERY camera shy!)

 

The information IS out there, just difficult to come by, but thanks to the internet it is easier now than 20 or 30 years ago!

[sulzer27jd]

 

It is all interesting and should - once I get it all collated - provide some more insight into train working in the Dundee area c1948-50(ish)

 

Dundee-Arbroath was a joint LMS/LNER line, but VERY camera shy and almost everything I have seen has been LNER based hence my query re LMS stock.

 

If anyone has any carriage working diagrams I would be interested in seeing them and would cover postage costs and provide a DVDrom of any scans I did.

 

Gav the D&A was historically a joint line but in the era you are describing was operated by the ex LNER half of Dundee. I recall that in earlier times there was always at least 1 Caledonian (then LMS) freight routed from Dundee to Guthrie via Arbroath in order to keep the Parliamentary powers active.

 

I am also collating information from the Dundee area in the early BR period and it is considerably more difficult than for the later years. I remember my father-in-law (Dundee Tay Bridge fireman then driver) saying that one of the things they noticed as crews was that early in BR they were given route learning and started to run over the Strathmore line. Running Dundee to Aberdeen, to Perth then back to Dundee. I have never heard of anything similar for Perth crews which makes me suspect that the main influence in this area would have been the ex LNER element. This would also fit in with lay over of LNER power using the ex LMS Dundee West sheds between turns, with Edinburgh pacifics regularly using this facility rather than DTB shed itself.

 

Your logs from post #10 are interesting as they clearly still refer to LNER numbers. I am currently looking at the time period for livery changes so as to include Apple Green as well as BR Blue and renumbering adds yet another variation to that theme.

 

I would be very interested in the carriage information. Is that available electronically?

 

J

[Guest Gavw]

I got the information re carriage workings from the Yahoo group for BR coaching stock. Diagrams for the scottish Region are rarer than hens teeth for any steam period and to actually find 1948 workings (the 1952 may not be complete) is amazing.

 

I am from Broughty Ferry originally (Live in London now but get up to the Ferry fairly frequently as it is STILL home!) and I so wish I had spoken to the the signalmen that let me work the box at the Ferry in the 1970s as at least one was ex LMS and one had been a chef on the Flying Scotsman but when you are only a teenager you don't think about these sort of things and when you do it is too late!

 

Sulzer, I would love to see what information you have found out! I have been gathering images of Dundee with a view to a model layout sometime in the future - it was the D11/2 that Bachmann brought out that sparked it all off! (and I know they were mainly Haymarket area locos) I hadn't realised quite how good rtr had got!!

 

Although it is WAY before my time, the 1948-51 period is what fascinates me! The various livery combinations that largely escaped being captured on colour film must have been amazing in the bleak years of austerity.

[Belsay Lad]

Hi

 

If you can track down any copies of the booklet issued by the Angus Railway Group in the late 1970's/early 1980's in their 'Steam Album' series -  'Volume one Dundee and district' this contains some photos from the 1940's through to the 60's of the Dundee stations/trains (West/TayBridge/East/Camperdown Junction) and might be of interest? It also has photos (mostly dated) of workings outside the immediate Dundee area

 

Unfortunately the booklets (there were at least another two covering Angus and Perthshire which also might be of interest) do not seem to have ISBN reference numbers.

 

regards

Eddie

[pH]

Hi

 

If you can track down any copies of the booklet issued by the Angus Railway Group in the late 1970's/early 1980's in their 'Steam Album' series -  'Volume one Dundee and district' this contains some photos from the 1940's through to the 60's of the Dundee stations/trains (West/TayBridge/East/Camperdown Junction) and might be of interest? It also has photos (mostly dated) of workings outside the immediate Dundee area

 

Unfortunately the booklets (there were at least another two covering Angus and Perthshire which also might be of interest) do not seem to have ISBN reference numbers.

 

regards

Eddie

 

There are quite a few on Abebooks just now. If you search for "angus railway group" in 'Keywords' (not 'Author'), you'll find copies of all three volumes. You're right, Eddie, they don't appear to have ISBNs.

[Torper]

The West station was closed on Sundays after (if memory serves) 1935,

According to Peter Marshall in his book "The Railways of Dundee" (Oakwood Press), all Sunday services were routed to Tay Bridge Station from Dundee West as from 7th October 1951.

 

This is, incidentally, a highly detailed and well illustrated book though it does concentrate much more on the early years of the Dundee railways than the later ones.

 

DT

[Guest Gavw]

Some progress has been made in obtaining information. A 1947 Scottish area LNER sectional appendix has been sourced with some interesting observations on working the D&A Joint. An early 1950s freight WTT has been copied and sent to me and a start will be made soon on working through all the information.

 

Does anyone have any information on private owner wagons from this period? Was Briggs refinery (tank wagons for bitumen) the only user by 1947 or were some of the Dundee coal companies (Hood etc) still using their own wagons in 1948?

 

Photographs of Tay Bridge Station are still rare as hens teeth!!

 

I have Oakwoods "Railways of Dundee" and have the first two Railway Bylines about the harbour branch.

 

Many thanks for all your help so far - I am still following up some photographic leads in Dundee that I hope to see in a week or so when I am back up there.

[sulzer27jd]

Gav try this Flickr site;

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/sets/72157628276319269/

 

John

[Graham R]

According to Peter Marshall in his book "The Railways of Dundee" (Oakwood Press), all Sunday services were routed to Tay Bridge Station from Dundee West as from 7th October 1951.

 

Thanks for the correction and sorry for misleading anyone. I don't know why I had the date 1935 in mind, but it may be confusion with the start that year of Sunday long-section working on the Newtyle branch, according to Niall Ferguson's book on the line. I have one or two public timetables covering the period and should have checked them first! The Sunday service to Glasgow was three trains a day in 1949, growing to four in winter 1959, and six in summer 1962, including a late-evening local to Perth.

 

Gav, if you have not already seen them, it's worth checking the photo collections of George Robin (held by the Mitchell Library in Glasgow, I don't think there's an online catalogue though) and George Bett (held by the Transport Treasury in Insch); both supply prints. There are quite a few photos in both of the Dundee area in the 1950s.

 

regards

Graham

[Guest Gavw]

Thanks for the heads up on the photos I have contacted Ernie as he is a customer of mine (he buys railway negatives from me!) and he has sent me a CDrom of all his Dundee archive including the first shot of a train (C16) at West Ferry Station that i have seen as well as a CR 0-4-4 at Stannergate on a local.

 

I cannot get to Glasgow easliy, but will keep George Robins' collection in mind.

 

Gradually it is coming together. Now collecting suitable rolling stock. WD 2-8-0, D49, B1, C16, D11/2 all now in the fold. Others are in the pipeline!

[Graham R]

Does anybody know what the problem was with the water supply?  Was this an issue that manifested itself post war or had it always been the situation at Tay Bridge?  Were the water columns at both ends of the station taken from the same supply?  i.e. did this problem affect both up and down trains?

 

There was only one supply at Tay Bridge, a very large rectangular tank on the Down side, next the road bridge (access to Tay Bridge shed and a coal yard) which crossed the station at its west end. You can see it in this photo. The shed, half a mile west, had its own tank next the coaling tower. There was a single water column on the Down platform (east end) and two twin-hosed columns serving all four platforms at the Up (west) end. Because the station was in a deep cutting there were no columns on the Down and Up through lines where freights drew up; they were hard against the retaining walls. In NB and earlier LNE days it was normal to double-head longer trains but second columns were not provided, maybe because locos were usually changed at Dundee.

 

I'm not challenging the "green bible" but I wonder why there was a supply problem? The head of water must have been better than usual because the tank was well above ground level while the columns were in the cutting. Maybe the supply pipes were inadequate: the station was built in the 1870s when tenders were smaller. It seems odd that the LNE, at least, wouldn't have invested in such an obvious way of reducing station time. Perhaps the railway drew water from its own well rather than the public supply, but again if it was not reliable why would they not use the public alternative?

[sulzer27jd]

The change of engines at Dundee was an NB practice that started at about the same time as a major drivers dispute, which seems to have resulted in a fixed working day. Through some of this time the top links at Haymarket - at least - had allocated men and machines. The writer Norman McKillop claimed credit for this, with his own engine being 60100 Spearmint, but it would mean that if the crew could not work out and back between Edinburgh and Aberdeen within their working day, then neither could their engines. What was visible at Dundee was the upper links (passenger and fish in particular) keeping the crews and engines together. 

 

During the BR period incoming engines such as the ex LNER pacifics would often turn and layover at Dundee West (ex LMS) shed rather than the more traditional Tay Bridge (ex LNER).