Quirks of steam loco allocation - 1960s

[Guest Phil]

Over the festive period I have tried to get a number of tasks tidied up whiles Mrs B watched the gogglebox. One job has been to transcribe into a spreadsheet a few pages of handwritten notes about Bescot steam loco allocations. I don't know who compiled the notes, whether they are official, or from contemporary magazines of the day. The notes are based on the four week or five week system employed by British Railways of that era and list "ins, outs and withdrawals" from 1960 to the end of Bescot steam shed 4 weeks ending 26th March 1966.

 

Bescot was one of a number of LMR depots which made use of diesel shunting power, some inherited from the LMS, retaining a handful of "jackshafts" into the 1960s. As such steam shunting tank locos were reasonably rare, especially in Bescot itself, only returning from outstations for washouts, repairs and maintenance.

 

The records indicate that Bescot as 21B in 1961 had custody of "Jinties" 47294 and 47396, but these were shipped out to 2B 4 weeks ending 15/07/61, leaving Bescot without Jinties for the first time in many decades.

 

Moving on four years later to 1965 and neighbour shed Bushbury closed on 12th April of that year, leaving 47437 homeless. The loco is shown reallocated to Bescot (by now 2F) on the 4 weeks ending 24/04/65. The stay at it's new home was short though because '7437 was reallocated to 6A Chester Midland on 4 weeks ending 06/11/65, once again leaving Bescot Jintyless.

 

Of course, 47437 might have had a specific job in the West Midlands and it's reallocation might have been little more than a "paper excercise". There were a number of outbased locos performing odd shunting tasks - an example of which were the Midland class 2s (581xx) which were "shedded" behind the wall at Tipton up to the early 1960s (date tbc). 47437 may well have had a similar task at Wednesfield or somewhere between Bushbury and Bescot.

 

 

 

The point of this waffle ? none really, just thought I'd share it with you !!!!! Happy New Year

[bike2steam]

A specific 'Jinty' job usually covered by Bushbury, was banker from Wednesfield Road yard, right next to Wolverhampton Low Level station, up to the Grand Junction line at Portobello Junction, the train engine being one of the last duties for the 'Duck-8's'.In my collection is a Bachmann Jinty renumbered - 47437.

[Guest Phil]

A specific 'Jinty' job usually covered by Bushbury, was banker from Wednesfield Road yard, right next to Wolverhampton Low Level station, up to the Grand Junction line at Portobello Junction, the train engine being one of the last duties for the 'Duck-8's'.In my collection is a Bachmann Jinty renumbered - 47437.

 

 

 

Ahhhhh - so the Wednesfield Road shunting loco was possibly a Bushbury Jinty then Paul ? Well well.

So when Bushbury shed closed, and before a "350" could be spared, it's possible the Jinty was reallocated to 2F for that reason. I thought it would be something like that, but thanks for the note.

[Rugd1022]

Fascinating stuff Phil, thanks for sharing

 

I love going through the old 'Traffic Reports' in my collection of Railway Magazine from 1964-81, especially the 60s and 70s ones..... if a loco was seen on 'foreign' ground, ie: more than a few miles from it's home shed, it was deemed newsworthy in those far off days!

 

[ O/T, do you have a copy of Bradford Bartons 'Diesels in the West Mids & Central Wales'? It's one of the best in the BB series, well worth seeking out if you haven't already got it mate ]

 

Nidge

[Guest Phil]

Fascinating stuff Phil, thanks for sharing

 

I love going through the old 'Traffic Reports' in my collection of Railway Magazine from 1964-81, especially the 60s and 70s ones..... if a loco was seen on 'foreign' ground, ie: more than a few miles from it's home shed, it was deemed newsworthy in those far off days!

 

[ O/T, do you have a copy of Bradford Bartons 'Diesels in the West Mids & Central Wales'? It's one of the best in the BB series, well worth seeking out if you haven't already got it mate ]

 

Nidge

 

I do. One of the few BBs I have got, and very tasty too !!

 

Seasons greetings, and see the post in prototype questions about the Rugby-Peterboro line - D5532.

[bike2steam]

In Michael Hales book 'Steam In The Black Country' (published way back in 1971), there is a pic of 47437 at Bescot in July 1965, and a pic of 48895 (plus chalked in LMS on the tender) at Wednesfield Road yard in October 1963.

A paper back with 58 pics on less than 20 pages, a must for any steam fan interested in the Black Country area, along with all the Ned Williams books.

[Mark Forrest]

In Wolverhampton Railway Album Vol 1 (Ned Williams) there's a photo of 47437 banking a southbound freight "towards high level", caption states July 1965! (sorry no page numbers, but it's about a dozen pages from the back, top right corner of the page).

I would have thought it would've made more sense for Oxley to cover the Wednesfield Road/banker duty? Weren't some of the remaining locos from Bushbury reallocated there after closure?

[Guest Phil]

In Wolverhampton Railway Album Vol 1 (Ned Williams) there's a photo of 47437 banking a southbound freight "towards high level", caption states July 1965! (sorry no page numbers, but it's about a dozen pages from the back, top right corner of the page).

I would have thought it would've made more sense for Oxley to cover the Wednesfield Road/banker duty? Weren't some of the remaining locos from Bushbury reallocated there after closure?

 

 

Ouch Mark !!!!!

Oxley was Western, Wednesfield Road was Midland - never the twain etc !!!!

 

Seriously though, the railway in the West Midlands (similar to other large areas I suppose) were a massive melting pot with boundary changes, rationalisation, redundancy moves etc. Despite this Mikeh in his studies, has proved that the LMR even in the early 60s, was acting pretty much as two separate railway companies with Exchange Sidings (near Grand Junction) acting as just that - an exchange yard between LMR (ex Midland) and LMR (ex LNWR). Bizarrely, this meant that goods traffic from Birmingham to "London" could be despatched three ways ;

 

via Bordesley yard on the WR

via Exchange Sidings onto an ex LNWR route service towards Willesden.

via Washwood Heath and the ex MR route towards Cricklewood

 

 

Returning to Mark's post - yes - locos and men were reallocated, but progress / modernisation must have been so tediously slow.

 

Good to hear '7437 is being observed.

[mikeh]

 

I would have thought it would've made more sense for Oxley to cover the Wednesfield Road/banker duty? Weren't some of the remaining locos from Bushbury reallocated there after closure?

 

Indeed, while currently looking at Stanier Moguls (having had the book for Xmas...), I can confirm in April 1965 Bushbury's three - 42946, 2957 & 2983 moved to Oxley where they stayed until Nov (946 - Wdn) and Dec 65 (957 & 983 to Heaton Mersey). I havn't looked at other steam classes yet but interestingly Bushbury's remaining 350s all moved to Bescot on closure - viz: 12093 12094 D3090 D3867, so presumably the logic was mainline turns to Oxley and pilot turns to Bescot?

 

Fascinating stuff

 

Regards

Mike

[buckdancer]

Phil - as you say, loco allocations were the key to much enjoyment in steam days.

For instance I've always puzzled over why a couple of Workington 4F 0-6-0s were sent down to Bescot in the early 60s - you'll probably find them in your lists.

Surely they could have gone somewhere closer?

Not that there were any complaints at the time!

I must admit I don't remember those particular Jinties but seem to recall 47310 and 47313 - or has time really messed up my memory?

As to what the Jinties did, I've no idea - maybe shed pilot or pottering around the edges of the yard?

Maybe pilots at the Walsall freight depots or carriage sheds?

I'll get a few West Midlands books out and have a look to see if there are any photos of them.

Any chance of putting that spreadsheet up or do you feel there's a copyright on it?

[bike2steam]

Along with Great Bridge North station goods yard, and the exchange sidings at Wednesbury, Bescot was used as collection point for Cashmores scrap-yard in Great Bridge.

Pic below is of 47313 taken 12/11/'67, possibly the last loco built for the S&DJR still in BR service, in said yard, taken with me precariously balanced on a line side electrical box beside the South Staffs line looking over the yard fence!!!

I remember 44155, & 44188 at Bescot, brought in to cover local trip freights because of a shortage after the loss to withdrawl of the last Duck-8's, and other similar 4F's ( Duck-6's??).

[Mark Forrest]

Ouch Mark !!!!!

Oxley was Western, Wednesfield Road was Midland - never the twain etc !!!!

 

Oops; now where's the washing my mouth out with soap emoticon

 

As you know my interest is biased towards the ex-GWR lines in the area so hadn't really thought about the rivalry between Midland and LNWR lines, very interesting.

 

Cheers

[Mark Forrest]

Pic below is of 47313 taken 12/11/'67, possibly the last loco built for the S&DJR still in BR service

And being built by Bagnall's she has almost made it home!

[Guest Phil]

Phil - as you say, loco allocations were the key to much enjoyment in steam days.

For instance I've always puzzled over why a couple of Workington 4F 0-6-0s were sent down to Bescot in the early 60s - you'll probably find them in your lists.

Surely they could have gone somewhere closer?

Not that there were any complaints at the time!

I must admit I don't remember those particular Jinties but seem to recall 47310 and 47313 - or has time really messed up my memory?

As to what the Jinties did, I've no idea - maybe shed pilot or pottering around the edges of the yard?

Maybe pilots at the Walsall freight depots or carriage sheds?

I'll get a few West Midlands books out and have a look to see if there are any photos of them.

Any chance of putting that spreadsheet up or do you feel there's a copyright on it?

 

Hi Buckdancer

 

Thanks for your response.

I've checked through my info and found that 44035 and 44377 from 12D were listed as reallocated to Bescot 2F in 4w/e 02.01.65. 44035 didn't last long though being withdrawn in the 4w/e 27/02/65. 44377 however, managed to escape 2F in 4w/e 22/05/65 - noted as "CW". What does "CW" mean ?

 

There are a couple of queries in my list - 4w/e 23/03/63 44057 and 44440 were reallocated SCR, but 44057 returned from SCR in 4w/e 13/07/63 with 44512. 44440 returned to Bescot at the next 4 weekly change along with 44448, also from SCR.

 

I could be misled into thinking SCR meant scrap or Sc Region, but I can't imagine the former because all locos were "WDN" (withdrawn) first.

 

 

 

The only Jinties which are mentioned in my records covering 1961-1966 are '7294 and '7396 which were shipped out to 2B in 4w/e 15/07/61, as well as the aforementioned '7437. Interested to know what you have as allocations for '7310 and '7313.

 

 

Re posting the Excell sheet, I don't think it is possible on RMweb. Can you PM me your email addy ? The sheet is not quite finished because I need to add the beginning of year loco numbers for each year, then cross check it all.

 

 

I have to say that I was still only a single digit sprog during the period of this information, so much of what I see here is very fresh. I must say though, that some of the online references to steam loco allocation can be a little misleading when you consider the number of times locos were transferred. One example is "Duck Eight" 49407 which transferred in from 21C in August 1963, only to move on to 5B at the end of the year. '9407 returned in March 1964 being finally withdrawn from use in the December cull of the class at Bescot.

[buckdancer]

Thanks for the photo!

That scrapyard was always of great interest.

When I first started spotting, trains of dead locos would go past Wednesbury to the scrapyard - ancient tankies and compounds.

A list of stuff scrapped there would make very interesting reading as a few Duchesses met their fate there towards the end.

 

I've stopped being lazy and have looked in the Michael McManus "Ultimate Allocations" book for the Workington to Bescot 0-6-0s.

I can only find one so far - 44377 moved to the West Midlands in w/e 5/12/64.

The look-through did highlight that a lot of the class were withdrawn from Workington (or 12D at least) so they must have given them a right hammering up there or maybe it was a last stop for time-expired locos.

Anyway, samples of other moves of interest were 44440 from 1A to the West Midlands then up to Scotland and then back to the West Midlands.

44512 moved from the West Midlands, up to Scotland, back to the West Midlands then up to the Manchester area.

You get a picture in your mind of a light loco making it's way through all kinds of weather and foreign areas to be welcomed into it's new home when probably it was just hauled dead in a slow moving freight train.

I guess if locos went on works at Crewe or Derby it was easier to reallocate them from there although I don't have Works details so can't confirm that.

 

Also, 47310 was a Bescot loco at one stage but 47313 got as close and no closer than Burton.

44155 came from Northwich and 44188 from Skipton if I'm reading the codes correctly.

[buckdancer]

Phil - just about to go out but will reply to your points later.

CW stands for Crewe Works.

Presumably it went to be a Works shunter.

[pH]

44377 however, managed to escape 2F in 4w/e 22/05/65 - noted as "CW". What does "CW" mean ?

 

There are a couple of queries in my list - 4w/e 23/03/63 44057 and 44440 were reallocated SCR, but 44057 returned from SCR in 4w/e 13/07/63 with 44512. 44440 returned to Bescot at the next 4 weekly change along with 44448, also from SCR.

 

I could be misled into thinking SCR meant scrap or Sc Region, but I can't imagine the former because all locos were "WDN" (withdrawn) first.

 

Phil - 'CW' means 'Crewe Works'. Some of the works shunters at Crewe were 4Fs. In October 1965 44377, 44405 and 44525 were being used for this.

 

44057 and 44440 were transferred to the Scottish Region in early 1963 as part of what had to be done because of the complete failure of the Clayton type 1s when they were introduced. Steam engines were transferred from the LMR and the NER (at least), some Caley 0-6-0s got a short reprieve and Polmadie's 3 8Fs (48773/4/5), which had already been withdrawn, were re-instated. I saw 44057 at Port Glasgow that spring and 44440 on Dawsholm shed. Once the Claytons had been modified and returned to service, the engines from other regions were no longer required and were returned.

[Guest Phil]

Phil - 'CW' means 'Crewe Works'. Some of the works shunters at Crewe were 4Fs. In October 1965 44377, 44405 and 44525 were being used for this.

 

44057 and 44440 were transferred to the Scottish Region in early 1963 as part of what had to be done because of the complete failure of the Clayton type 1s when they were introduced. Steam engines were transferred from the LMR and the NER (at least), some Caley 0-6-0s got a short reprieve and Polmadie's 3 8Fs (48773/4/5), which had already been withdrawn, were re-instated. I saw 44057 at Port Glasgow that spring and 44440 on Dawsholm shed. Once the Claytons had been modified and returned to service, the engines from other regions were no longer required and were returned.

 

 

Thanks very much Peter.

 

Isn't this RMweb such a wonderful resource ? Thanks as always Andy Y.

[bike2steam]

buckdancer,

Take a look at this;-

http://www.railuk.in...scrap.php?id=27

 

9 Stanier pacifics at Cashmore, Great Bridge.

[pH]

There's a photo of 44440 at Partick West in May 1963 in BRILL Vol. 18 No. 1 (October 2008) page 9. The article is 'Caledonian Clydeside' by Keith Miles. The caption says that 6 4Fs were temporarily transferred north to Scotland at that time, along with other types.

[buckdancer]

Wow!

That site is brilliant.

I notice a King got scrapped there and just one SR loco.

Didn't realise so many Duchesses got done there or 9Fs.

I wonder how they got the Duchesses there as as far as I know there was a weight restriction on the South Staffs viaduct at Wednesbury Wood Green.

I thought scrappers might have been collected at Bescot and then shipped up the South Staffs - I saw a few trainloads of about 6 a time go past Wednesbury - the 419xxs in the list I particularly remember.

Most scrappers caused confusion amongst the spotters as they were often missing from the latest combined volume!

I've seen a photo of a Duchess at Walsall which actually went over the Wood Green viaduct on a Sunday diversion off the Stour Valley and through Wednesbury and on to Rugeley however!

Maybe it was lucky to get through without spreading rails etc at various locations on it's little trip.

Thanks for that it's a great resource.

[bike2steam]

Apologies to Phil for getting a little sidetracked, but notice the number of jinties on the Cashmores list.

But one thing has been puzzling me since I saw it, some of the V2's on the list were stored in Oxley sidings before going into the scrapyard, the question is - why that way?

 

 

[buckdancer]

Phil - consulting the oracle, it looks like 47310 was at 1D Devons Road Bow in 1950, then moved w/e 19/04/58 to 1B Camden.

w/e 07/11/59 saw the Cockney move to Bescot and then w/e 19/12/59 on to 8C Speke Junction.

It moved back to Bescot on w/e 30/1/60 (that's if you believe it actually went to Liverpool for those few days).

Then followed a move w/e 5/11/60 to 5B Crewe South.

It then moved w/e 28/1/61 to 5D Stoke and finally ended up w/e 11/3/61 at 5C Stafford from where it was withdrawn w/e 21/4/62 (probably from exhaustion at all the moves).

All Western lines sheds.

 

47313 spent time at 21A Saltley from 1950.

It then moved w/e 10/1/59 to 15C Leicester Midland.

w/e 29/10/59 saw it move to 17B Burton for a while.

It then moved w/e 6/8/66 to 16G Westhouses.

It was withdrawn from there on 15/7/67 and as the photo shows, ended up at Cashmores of Great Bridge.

All Midland lines sheds - I wonder if this was a pattern in allocations on the LMR?

It must have been one of the last of the Jinties let alone one of the last of the S&D locos built.

[buckdancer]

The point about the V2s being stored at Oxley is a mystery.

I would have thought these would have come down to Derby then on to Saltley or Bescot and gone to Great Bridge from there.

You would sometimes catch V2s at Saltley.

Maybe again it has something to do with weight restrictions on the South Staffs although I often saw 9Fs hammering along it on oil/petrol tanks.

I can't think how they would have travelled to Oxley without going near Saltley or Bescot.

[Guest Phil]

The point about the V2s being stored at Oxley is a mystery.

I would have thought these would have come down to Derby then on to Saltley or Bescot and gone to Great Bridge from there.

You would sometimes catch V2s at Saltley.

Maybe again it has something to do with weight restrictions on the South Staffs although I often saw 9Fs hammering along it on oil/petrol tanks.

I can't think how they would have travelled to Oxley without going near Saltley or Bescot.

 

Thanks Buckdancer and all the other contributors to this thread - some really useful information has risen to the surface from it. I am not sure about the weight restriction on the Wednesbury line though.

 

One issue which seems to manifest itself when people discuss route restrictions is comparing the railway of yore, to today's infrastructure. A classic involved the GWR Kings which were restricted to main lines prior to their demise in the 1960s. A considerable degree of railway upgrading has taken in the intervening 40 years so the track which 6024 runs over today is mostly considerably more substantial than when in NBR service.

 

The Cambrian route which was barred to anything bigger than a Manor or a Std class 4MT in 1966 has been relayed with deep ballasting, CWR and concrete / steel sleepers in many stretches. In this case though, there are still many lightweight bridges, but Brush type 4s have been allowed all the way to Aberystwyth in 2009 for the first time in the classes history.

 

Returning to the Wednesbury line, I'm saying the route may have been upgraded since steam days, but I recall us running 100 ton steel carriers up the Dudley line with RA10 exception documentation on a daily basis. This means wagons with an axle loading of 25 tons which would exceed the axle loading of the heaviest steam locos.

 

The storing/staging of V2s at Oxley does appear to be a mystery with little logic. I need to try and find out more about this, but I doubt weight was an issue.