Reluctant SEEP point motors

[IOSkeith]

Hi,

Just wired my first set of point motors and control panel up.

Using Peco n-gauge points, CDU and Seep motors that all make a nice resounding "click" and move the correct direction when asked.. Except for the pair intended to operate the 3-way assymentric point.

 

I've got them wired via three push button switches and a diode matrix that set the points to each of the 3 routes as intended, however they do it VERY reluctantly(if at all) and may require several presses of the route selection button.

 

Is this a natural consequence of using a diode matrix or is it down to poor wiring / soldering on my part.

Any ideas on helpful hints to isolate the problem would be gratefully received.

 

Thanks.

Keith

 

 

[Wherry Lines]

The first thing I would do is to check that the point motor is correctly orientated for the point. I have had this problem and needed to tweak them to get them to throw correctly.

[amdaley]

I concur with Simon above.

Also check each motor to see if they are working correctly.

Are you using a Cdu ?

If they are correctly orientated then the next thing I would look at is the type of wire being used.

[IOSkeith]

I concur with Simon above.

Also check each motor to see if they are working correctly.

Are you using a Cdu ?

If they are correctly orientated then the next thing I would look at is the type of wire being used.

Yes I'm using a CDU to flick them over.

By orientation do you mean how they are aligned with the track above? Or the direction they are intended to throw when the current flows? 

 

I've used a mix of wires: 

In side the control box I've used single core equipment wire

To link the control box to the boards I've used a printer parallel cable and to link up under the boards I've used single core again. I didn't think that there would be too much issue with the wire diameter as the other points operate fine.

[ShinyShoe]

I've used a mix of wires: 

In side the control box I've used single core equipment wire

To link the control box to the boards I've used a printer parallel cable and to link up under the boards I've used single core again. I didn't think that there would be too much issue with the wire diameter as the other points operate fine.

There is some serious current involved in firing a solenoid.  Maybe 4amps?  If you are moving 2 solenoids that could be 8amps?  The CDU will supply that, but the wire may struggle to carry it.  Are the other points single?

 

I'd take some decent wire on crock clips attach to the point motor at one end and then touch it to the CDU momentarily at the other.  If the solenoid moves properly you know the issue is not the solenoid and is the wiring / switching.  Then work through the wiring with the crock clip wires to find any specifically dodgy bits if the wires are OK it could be a dry joint...

[AngryMeerkat]

I had a similar problem when I was trying to throw 2 sets of points off 1 switch, despite using a CDU.

 

15v DC fed into the CDU would operate every point on the layout (9) perfectly, except for the 2 pairs that operate together. I checked the wiring was upto the job, and that current was getting through, all checked out ok. In the end I got a separate power feed for the CDU (24v AC) and now everything works perfectly. I did check both my CDU and Seep point motors and they are both capable of operating at 14-25v AC.

 

Mark

[amdaley]

Yes I'm using a CDU to flick them over.

By orientation do you mean how they are aligned with the track above? Or the direction they are intended to throw when the current flows? 

 

I've used a mix of wires:

In side the control box I've used single core equipment wire

To link the control box to the boards I've used a printer parallel cable and to link up under the boards I've used single core again. I didn't think that there would be too much issue with the wire diameter as the other points operate fine.

The mix of wires could mean anything. I have a good number of Peco solenoid point motors including several sets of two.

From each point motor I use about 3" of 16/0.2mm cable to a choc block. All my main solenoid wires are 32/0.2mm & they fire every time once set up properly.

As others have said solenoid point motors take a good wack to move them, 3 or 4 amps per motor & there is no substitute for good cable.

You'll only get what the cable is capable of carrying & your wiring may not be capable of carrying enough current to move 2 solenoid motors together.

Try disconnecting one of the motors & see if the other motor will switch over or try doubling up the cable & see if that works.

[bluebottle]

I had a similar problem when I was trying to throw 2 sets of points off 1 switch, despite using a CDU.

 

15v DC fed into the CDU would operate every point on the layout (9) perfectly, except for the 2 pairs that operate together. I checked the wiring was upto the job, and that current was getting through, all checked out ok. In the end I got a separate power feed for the CDU (24v AC) and now everything works perfectly. I did check both my CDU and Seep point motors and they are both capable of operating at 14-25v AC.

 

Mark

 

Gaugemaster told me in no uncertain terms that I MUST feed AC into a CDU.

[kevinlms]

Gaugemaster told me in no uncertain terms that I MUST feed AC into a CDU.

Feeding 15V DC into a CDU will give something less than 15Volts available to drive the points. Feeding 15V AC into the same CDU will give around 22 Volts DC available, because the CDU will charge up to the peak of the AC sine wave (about 1.4 times the voltage).

 

So yes, Gaugemaster are correct in that AC should be used to get the maximum benefit, but MUST is probably the wrong word, as you could achieve the same result using 22 Volts DC input.

 

Mark's 24V AC input is probably around 35V DC and care needs to be taken that the capacitors are rated to take this, otherwise 1 day, they will explode. Most commercial CDU's & CDU kits aren't.

[IOSkeith]

Thanks for the ideas guys.

 

Just had a productive morning with a set of crocodile leads by-passing all the wiring from the control panel to the troublesome point motors.

Have isolated the error to a dry joint in the diode matrix which has now been shown the error of its ways.

 

Lots of happy clicking going on.

Just got to put everything back together again.

 

Keith

[amdaley]

Good stuff Keith.

Glad you got it sorted.

[bluebottle]

Gaugemaster told me in no uncertain terms that I MUST feed AC into a CDU.

 

 

Feeding 15V DC into a CDU will give something less than 15Volts available to drive the points. Feeding 15V AC into the same CDU will give around 22 Volts DC available, because the CDU will charge up to the peak of the AC sine wave (about 1.4 times the voltage).

 

So yes, Gaugemaster are correct in that AC should be used to get the maximum benefit, but MUST is probably the wrong word, as you could achieve the same result using 22 Volts DC input.

 

Mark's 24V AC input is probably around 35V DC and care needs to be taken that the capacitors are rated to take this, otherwise 1 day, they will explode. Most commercial CDU's & CDU kits aren't.

 

Thanks for the lesson, Kevin. I checked Gaugemaster's website, and the description of their CDU reads: “Transformer1 for Hornby/ Peco/ Seep point motors or Transformer 3 for 24v applications”. So the 16V AC of the T1 seems to be OK for Seep (especially as I have no more than two points to throw simultaneously), and would possibly cause less wear and tear on the motors than 24V AC.?

 

Gordon

[MarkC]

It's an interesting aspect though, isn't it? If you don't understand the concept that a given AC voltage gives a larger DC voltage, you might come a cropper. Exploding electrolytic capacitors can really spoil one's day - and they can go with a hell of a bang...

 

Mark

[bluebottle]

It's an interesting aspect though, isn't it? If you don't understand the concept that a given AC voltage gives a larger DC voltage, you might come a cropper. Exploding electrolytic capacitors can really spoil one's day - and they can go with a hell of a bang...

 

Mark

 

Yes indeed, Mark. That's why I thanked Kevin for his explanation and mentioned that the Gaugemaster CDU is apparently safe for use with a 24 V AC input and so unlikely to cause fireworks.. However, as Gaugemaster recommended a transformer with a 16V AC output via their CDU for Seep motors, it occurred to me that the lower charge - 22V DC rather than 35V DC - might result in a longer useful life for the Seep motors. To return to my original point, it's possible that I misheard or misunderstood the Gaugemaster advisor, so apologies to them.

 

Gordon

[stewartingram]

It's an interesting aspect though, isn't it? If you don't understand the concept that a given AC voltage gives a larger DC voltage, you might come a cropper. Exploding electrolytic capacitors can really spoil one's day - and they can go with a hell of a bang...

 

Mark

 

Memories of my younger days, just out of apprenticeship in the Pye Telecom facory in Cambridge!

A workmate about 3 benches to my left was tuning up a SSB130 type radio, with it perched on a 45 degree angled stand on the bench for easier access. He had had a little trouble setting it up, and was leaning forward over it with his trimming tools. He paused, leant back in his chair (fortunately) and a large (50000 uF?) capacitor, in a metal can about 4" long x 1-1/2" diameter, decided to impersonate the launch of a space rocket. The nasty greeny yellow innards shot up, with an enormous bang, at 45 degree angle, missed his face by about 1", and went up to splatter the northlight roof. Very messy and lucky for him. I dread to think of the consequences of him being hit in the face.

I've always taken care with caps since then.

 

Stewart

[kevinlms]

Thanks for the lesson, Kevin. I checked Gaugemaster's website, and the description of their CDU reads: “Transformer1 for Hornby/ Peco/ Seep point motors or Transformer 3 for 24v applications”. So the 16V AC of the T1 seems to be OK for Seep (especially as I have no more than two points to throw simultaneously), and would possibly cause less wear and tear on the motors than 24V AC.?

 

Gordon

No problem Gordon. Yes a 16V AC transformer would be fine for a couple of SEEPs, its only when if you want to go into route selection and throwing several points at once, that you should need the extra power. I've done this in the past, but think I would do differently now.

 

The SEEP's need to be properly aligned to work reliably and also don't mount them too tight, otherwise you'll crack the soldering on them (easily resoldered once you get them off - but a pain to take off & remount, so best avoided).

Use a biggish washer as a spacer between the PCB & underside of baseboard, should help you.

[sid]

Hi look at the post in

Points Motors , How to do it, what do I need ?!

That I left today it may be of help to you.as i use seep motors this way and found it more reliable system then those posted above.

.

[Andy Y]

Hi look at the post in

Points Motors , How to do it, what do I need ?!

That I left today it may be of help to you.as i use seep motors this way and found it more reliable system then those posted above.

.

Sid, It has been noted that all your posts seem to point toward promoting this site. I would ask that you read the forum rules with regard to commercial posting. Please don't keep identifying opportunities to spam readers.