Paul26e Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Hi to all Readers of RM Web. Please can anyone tell me when BR withdrew the ex GWR "Toad" style brake vans? Would they have lasted into the 1970's and be seen with corporate blue diesels? Many Thanks Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c624417.html I usually start here when seeking any information about wagons. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul26e Posted December 29, 2009 Author Share Posted December 29, 2009 Hi Bernard I had forgotten about Paul Bartletts excellent work. Thanks for the reminder Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Please can anyone tell me when BR withdrew the ex GWR "Toad" style brake vans? Would they have lasted into the 1970's and be seen with corporate blue diesels? It's a difficult one to pin down with certainty Paul. After a certain point (the late 50s OTTOMH), the unions managed to get agreement for vans without duckets to not be used on journeys of any length, and the GW vans were the most numerous type affected. That had a bearing on their transfer to engineers' usage over the next decade or so (which spread them far and wide, with survivals into the '80s not uncommon) but there are certainly pictures of them still in WR branch freight usage into the diesel era. I'd like to think that their use in revenue traffic lasted into the 70s but I've not as yet seen anything conclusive (there are shots showing them in freight consists or in yards in that period, but not near enough to show that they're not DW or DB prefixed) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 It's a difficult one to pin down with certainty Paul. After a certain point (the late 50s OTTOMH), the unions managed to get agreement for vans without duckets to not be used on journeys of any length, and the GW vans were the most numerous type affected. That had a bearing on their transfer to engineers' usage over the next decade or so (which spread them far and wide, with survivals into the '80s not uncommon) but there are certainly pictures of them still in WR branch freight usage into the diesel era. I'd like to think that their use in revenue traffic lasted into the 70s but I've not as yet seen anything conclusive (there are shots showing them in freight consists or in yards in that period, but not near enough to show that they're not DW or DB prefixed) A couple ended up, with footboards removed, as brake-force vehicles at one of the Kent collieries, lasting into the late 1970s- thus, not only did they work with blue diesels, but with blue electrics.... There are some photos in Robert Hendry's 'British railway Goods Wagons in Colour' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 A couple ended up, with footboards removed, as brake-force vehicles at one of the Kent collieries, lasting into the late 1970s- thus, not only did they work with blue diesels, but with blue electrics.... There are some photos in Robert Hendry's 'British railway Goods Wagons in Colour' According to Eric Gent's book, four of the BR built GWR-style vans survived in revenue service into the mid 1970s, long after the others were scrapped or transferred to departmental service. Unfortunately, the running numbers are only available on a supplementary CD-ROM. Whether it was for a particular use or they "just survived" is not stated. Does anybody have the CD-ROM?? Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 29, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 29, 2009 GW pattern freight brakevans were banned from traffic use as brakevans in late 1965/early 1966 on safety grounds due to lack of an escape route at the non verandah end. Some definitely lasted at Acton until 1967, possibly later, for use as vacuum head as they had the advantage of weight over most other vehicles and thus helped to keep down train length. The (Acton -) Slough goods was regularly formed with them as fitted head in late 1966/early 1967. After '66 I never saw one in revenue use on the WR (but I wasn't everywhere at once of course ) but in 1975/76 one of my Guards 'borrowed' a civil engineer's GW pattern van because, basically, I suspect it was a lot warmer than a BR standard van (which he claimed wasn't available at the yard he returned from, 'so I had no choice Mike - didn't want the train cancelled did we?'). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoshed Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Did the toads every get used in other regions I`m in the LMR late 50`s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Did the toads every get used in other regions I`m in the LMR late 50`s The WR were very proprietorial about their brake vans, to the extent of not only painting a yard allocation on the side, but also (in the case of some fitted vans) painting on the details of their diagrammed workings. Sometimes these latter would have a dozen or more lines of text- I've seen shorter novels. If they did stray over Regional boundaries, it would be because they were on a working to or from the WR- all this changed, of course, when they went to Departmental use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 30, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2009 The WR were very proprietorial about their brake vans, to the extent of not only painting a yard allocation on the side, but also (in the case of some fitted vans) painting on the details of their diagrammed workings. Sometimes these latter would have a dozen or more lines of text- I've seen shorter novels. If they did stray over Regional boundaries, it would be because they were on a working to or from the WR- all this changed, of course, when they went to Departmental use. And of course they were all branded 'Not In Common Use' which meant that they were supposed to be separately identified on the Daily Rolling Stock Return (i.e they would not be counted in the brakevan balance)and were supposed to be ordered back to home Region/depot. (n.b. I did say 'supposed to be'). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 GW pattern freight brakevans were banned from traffic use as brakevans in late 1965/early 1966 on safety grounds due to lack of an escape route at the non verandah end. Thanks Mike; that, added to the ducket issue, makes a lot of sense and ties in with the lack of 'blue era' sightings Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 30, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2009 Ian, Noting what you said earlier in this thread has just reminded me of an interesting sideline on 'research'. Regrettably I couldn't be more specific on dates (although somewhere in my 'archive' I might have something) but your comment about union involvement awakens another line of inquiry. I don't know what the RMT and its bramnches are like but some TU branches are excellent repositeries of information going back over a long period. Perhaps only for 'genuine researchers' but folk might know a way in via a friendly union member? I can recall at one depot where I was the latterday equivalent of the Shedmaster (or part of that job as it was by then split in two) our records went back about 15 years. The ASLEF branch had records going back to the early 1920s which often shed a very interesting light on coments one variously hears about certain designs of GW locos (Churchward's famous No.4000 was a pet, and persistent, subject of complaint for example). And quite a lot of union published industrial relations stuff can sometimes throw up answers on questions such as why/when so & so was taken out of use. Just a thought but maybe useful for somebody? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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