Wiring a double diamond

[Ray H]

I take it that I have a couple of days from what you've said above!

 

You'll need four more tags for the extra relay if we continue as originally planned.

 

That said, looking at Sasquatch's idea and assuming that the tram track is a loop, presumably with just a single tram on it, at first glance you would appear to be able to reduce the requirement down to two relays for the initial switching plus the extra one for collision avoidance. However, I reserve the right to confirm that.

[Sasquatch]

So you shold only need two relays!

[Michael Delamar]

there will be more than 1 tram running, they will line up behind each other in the hidden scenic areas either end,

[Sasquatch]

 Keep it simple, try to keep those live frog circuits apart from the other stuff.

Here`s my first take on this wiring job which I posted here and then removed after realising my numbers don`t  match your tag board.

[kevinlms]

Im just at the clubrooms now, ive wired up to rays plan, works fine over the tram but when switched for the railway it has a short.

 

I think i may have made a boob on the drawing above of the relay, the ones im using are maplins n04aw, rs-12, may have got the common mixed up on the relay?

This is an error that potentially will get you into diabolical trouble. You MUST make certainly of the pin out of any relay, failure to do so WILL get you into all sorts of trouble. A late friend of mine did that and replaced a number of existing motor driven switches, with relays. Unfortunately he assumed that the configuration was a particular way, when it was not, but went ahead & changed everything.

 

As the layout was switched with signals locking points etc, it ended up as a huge multipath short. It took weeks to undo the bulk of the mess & in fact it was never properly resolved.

 

 

Edited to add the following warning. It came from a large supplier of miniature relays. I think it says, don't use if its been dropped!

 

 

Other Handling

Please don’t use the relay if it suffered the dropping shock.

Because there is a possibility of something damage for initial

performance.

[Michael Delamar]

 

I think if someone can confirm if this is right then we can go from there.

 

ie the red marked ones are common,

 

the blue line represents what contacts are closed when power is off.

 

that is how I did a table originally but got the configuration mixed up..

 

 

[Ray H]

Michael

 

If you have a test meter (or can rig up a simple test circuit with a bulb and a battery) you can check the pinout arrangements of the relays but I would say that from your illustration pins 1 & 4 are common. pins 2 & 5 the normally closed and pins 3 & 6 the normally open which is as Keith mentioned earlier. Sasquatch's most recent post still shows the relay pinouts in the original (incorrect) arrangement.

 

The question is whether you want to minimise wiring and number of relays (and possibly sacrifice future expandability options by treating the tram track as a loop with all the-ve railes joined together and all the +ve rails joined together much as Sasquatch suggested), or whether you want to completely safeguard your options for the future and use the four relays that you currently have wired to the tag strip(s) with every rail length treated independently.

 

The economic version allows you to incorporate the anti collision measures in the existing tag strip/relay arrangement whereas you'd need another relay and more tag strip with each rail wired independently (possibly unless you bond all the -ve tram rails together, leaving you to sectionalise the +ve rail).

 

Do you view the scenic part of the tram track as a single "section"? If you do then you can just bond the rails together at one end as Sasquatch has indicated and that will save some wiring.

[Grovenor]

f you have a test meter (or can rig up a simple test circuit with a bulb and a battery) you can check the pinout arrangements of the relays but I would say that from your illustration pins 1 & 4 are common. pins 2 & 5 the normally closed and pins 3 & 6 the normally open which is as Keith mentioned earlier.

Note, I was referring to the numbers used on Michaels original drawing, Michaels latest has the numbering reversed but his red and blue markers are correct for the usual arrangement ie 3 & 6 are the commons on this latest drawing. As other have said above, use a meter or a battery and lamp to confirm before rewiring it.

Regards

Keith

[Ray H]

Note, I was referring to the numbers used on Michaels original drawing, Michaels latest has the numbering reversed but his red and blue markers are correct for the usual arrangement ie 3 & 6 are the commons on this latest drawing. As other have said above, use a meter or a battery and lamp to confirm before rewiring it.

Regards

Keith

Oops, I hadn't spotted the change in orientation, sorry. I thought they were still numbered from the top downwards.

[Michael Delamar]

im happy to go with whatever you guys suggest.

 

I can always add more relays if necessary, but probably best to go for the simpler option, as I say I had the pointwork originally like that but someone (chap who wired Lime street) said its best to have them all seperate but I cant remember the reason, maybe backfeed or something.

 

 

here is a photo of the layout. the trams will line up behind each other in the hidden loop sections either end of the layout, but thats something I need to work out later. probably have 4 trams but 2 will be running at one time.

 

there is also a faller car system which will have 2 electromagnets either side of the crossing to stop a road vehicle but thats easy to sort. im aware of the faller wire in the photo looking close to the rails but they do not touch, ie it doesnt short.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sasquatch]

Its now 6am here. Couldn`t sleep and was thinking about this (or is that counldn`t sleep thinking about this).

Will the trains activate the switch over of current in the frogs automatically, if so you need to do this so that the trams become isolated ahead of the live frog change over to avoid any trams ending up on the double diamond dcc current.

[Michael Delamar]

Will the trains activate the switch over of current in the frogs automatically, if so you need to do this so that the trams become isolated ahead of the live frog change over to avoid any trams ending up on the dcc current.

the point behind the loco in the picture above will control the current across the crossover, normally the point is set away from the crossing to protect it, when that point is switched thats what energises the relays to switch the diamonds frogs.

[Michael Delamar]

now im thinking about it, that point being DCC is going to interfere with the crossing regardless of what way its set?

[Ray H]

I like the picture - and your 14.13 post that arrived as I began to type this answers one of the questions that I was going to ask!

 

Other than the Mark 1 eyeball, is there anything to stop the (railway) point switch being operated whilst the trams are in the area of the crossing? Whilst we can isolate to prevent shorts caused by rail bridging, we don't want to stall a tram on the crossing by inadvertently throwing the point.

 

And your 14.22 post arrived as I was about to send this. Can you expand on that post a bit more please?

[Sasquatch]

So a third relay will be needed to isolate the trams before they reach the Double Diamond and you could use the forth for tram signals.

Just don`t through the point while the trams are on the crossing.

Nice track work by the way!

[Michael Delamar]

the DPDT switch to control the crossing is right next to it so it would have to rely on the operator not switching when a tram is on the crossing.

 

I assumed that when the point is switched away from the crossing the rails heading towards the crossing would be isolated but it wont be. its AC and that would conflict with the tram rails. so between the point and the crossing the 2 rails will need to be cut.

[Sasquatch]

now im thinking about it, that point being DCC is going to interfere with the crossing regardless of what way its set?

Don`t see how?

[Michael Delamar]

the other side of the railway just goes to the fiddle yard, but could probably still do with a protected isolating section  too.

[Sasquatch]

the DPDT switch to control the crossing is right next to it so it would have to rely on the operator not switching when a tram is on the crossing.

 

I assumed that when the point is switched away from the crossing the rails heading towards the crossing would be isolated but it wont be. its AC and that would conflict with the tram rails. so between the point and the crossing the 2 rails will need to be cut.

Yep! They already are because the live frogs circuitry must be kept seperate. Rule number1 with live frogs!!

[Michael Delamar]

Don`t see how?

no your right, I forgot it has a cut  between the point and crossing,.

[Ray H]

Slow down chaps, as fast as I go to write one thing, another post appears to add to the pot!

 

The frog (common crossing) on the (rail) point is obviously switched for polarity when the switch rail (blade) position changes.

 

How long do you intend to keep the point set for the (tram) crossing?

 

At present I would say that the rail between the point's frog and the first part of the diamond possibly needs two breaks although that can depend on how you feed each rail in the area.

 

In theory at least, if you cut the supply to one rail fed with AC, the other rail is also electrically dead, so we ought to just be able to interupt the feed to one (train) rail to provide protection to the crossing.

 

Obviously the point in the picture acts as a reminder to the operator that the rail track is about to cross the tram track. What is going to act as a reminder to stop a train approaching the tram crossing in the other direction? How long is that approach track and do you have an AC (DCC) bus to which all rails are connected?

[Michael Delamar]

Hi Ray, all DCC lines have an AC bus. there is space the other side for a isolating section.

[Sasquatch]

Assumeing that you don`t want to run the trams backwards

 

 

[Ray H]

 

These are the rail breaks that I think you need. I'll knuckle down and work out the relay wiring if you're happy with the breaks.

 

One of the wiring connections may involve the frog (crossing) on the rail turnout to avoid one further rail break. Is that OK?

 

Although the wiring diagram will show connections to the various rails, you can equally make those connections to the relevant supplies e.g. the DCC track power bus.

[Michael Delamar]

yes that looks good, if you could  number the rails to the picture of my relays id be very greatful, if you think it needs any other cuts anywhere that is fine its no problem to put cuts and extra wires in etc.