Waterloo (Bridge) Station - an L&SWR through station

[33040]

I caught a very interesting radio programme yesterday (Robert Elms show London 94.9, normally on the BBC iplayer for the following seven days) about Waterloo station.

 

It was mentioned that the station was originally called Waterloo Bridge Station and the L&SWR intended it to be a through station, with services continuing into the City of London. 

 

Does anyone know what happened to this extension?  Was a route and location for the terminus identified? Did any construction work take place? 

 

I have looked on the internet but can not find any information and my copy of London’s Termini is in the middle of a large pile of boxes following a recent house move.

 

[Katier]

Wikipedia does mention it briefly. My guess is, based on the wording, was that the 'intention' was to make it a through station but it never got past that stage. Whether a route was identified isn't clear on Wiki but I'd say that definitely no construction took place - and probably the ramshackle development of Waterloo would have made it tough too.

[bbishop]

I can't do it just at the moment; but if no-one gets in first, I can provide a pretty comprehensive response.  Getting Beaulieu ready for the Tonbridge show has to take precedence.

 

Bill

[Joseph_Pestell]

Was it Epsom&Ewell MRC that had a P4 model based on the LSW's City station at Southwark Bridge, late 19th C? It made (IIRC) a few exhibition outings in bareboard form in the mid 80s but I never saw it completed.

 

I think detailed survey work was carried out but I don't think any architectural drawings exist. It was all complicated by the arrival of the Charing Cross extension across the route and the LSW opted for the "bodge" option of the link through the middle of Waterloo onto the SER and so to Cannon Street.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I don't think this is the only "Southwark Bridge" layout that there has been. I seem to recall having seen a Minories style layout also based on this piece of "might-have-been" railway history. With the advent of the Hornby 2-BIL and other suitable stock, we may see many more.

[The Lurker]

Whilst we await bbishop's detailed response, here is a link to the kentrail site info on Waterloo East, which has brief details of what was built and a 1914 track plan showing the link:

 

http://www.kentrail.org.uk/waterloo_east.htm

 

although the text does go on to say that the link fell out of use in 1911.

[jamie92208]

Was that the link that was used to get Queen Victoria from Dover to Windsor.?

 

Jamie

[brightspark]

The bridge that supported the rails linking the two stations is still there. It is used as yard.

You can see it in Street View going behind the Wellington Pub/hotel.

[33040]

Thanks for the swift responses. I had seen the Kentrail and wikipedia entries, and they added to the intrigue!

 

The rail bridge between Waterloo and Waterloo East (previously Waterloo Junction Station) is still in situ - the number of times I have walked under it thinking it was simply the old foot access between the two stations, little realising it was once a rail link. This bridge is also mentioned in War of the Worlds by H G Wells to move troop trains to the Martian landing site (an idea for a way-out model perhaps!).

 

Now that London Overground has completed the outer circle on the south side (Surrey Quays to Clapham Jct via Denmark Hill) perhaps they could consider an inner circle or southside cross rail (Deptford / New Cross / Brockley to Clapham Jct)?! (Not a serious suggestion but could be fun to imagine in a Minories type way....).

Further information most welcome!

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Now that London Overground has completed the outer circle on the south side (Surrey Quays to Clapham Jct via Denmark Hill) perhaps they could consider an inner circle or southside cross rail (Deptford / New Cross / Brockley to Clapham Jct)?! (Not a serious suggestion but could be fun to imagine in a Minories type way....).

 

 

 

 

We are straying from the original topic....

 

But what you are suggesting has actually been proposed in the last 20 years. The idea was to close Charing Cross and create a Southern Crossrail linking the south-east and south-west suburbs. Operationally, it has a lot of merit as it would reduce terminus times. There would have been six or eight through platforms at Waterloo (South Western; Waterloo East would have closed) and four tracks across the Waterloo Rd to join the South Eastern. The two southernmost tracks would have gone to London Bridge and the south-east suburbs while the two northernmost would have gone to the westside platforms at Cannon St giving Surrey commuters direct City access. It would have removed some of the headaches that the engineers are having now in trying to accommodate 10-car trains in the suburban platforms at Waterloo.

 

Such ideas have been superseded by Thameslink "2000" and the rebuilding of Borough Market to accommodate it.

 

Was that the link that was used to get Queen Victoria from Dover to Windsor.?

 

Jamie

 

Yes. Also used quite a bit by troop trains.

[Buckingham]

The 'Southwark Bridge' layout in S4 is very much around, although unlikely to be exhibited again, some pictures can be found at http://www.sbmodels.org/sbm_gallery.html.  It is essentially a cut down version of Waterloo, these photos are now a few years old.  It is owned by a small group of S4 modellers, and is exquisite, runs superbly, has its own signalbox with electronic interlocking, which is written in machine code on a Commodore 64. It is operated to a timetable based in 1912.  Lots of M7s, T9s, T3s and other superb Drummond and Adams locos. Gorgeous coaches and rolling stock from a variety of sources including Southwark Bridge Models.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The 'Southwark Bridge' layout in S4 is very much around, although unlikely to be exhibited again, some pictures can be found at http://www.sbmodels.org/sbm_gallery.html.  It is essentially a cut down version of Waterloo, these photos are now a few years old.  It is owned by a small group of S4 modellers, and is exquisite, runs superbly, has its own signalbox with electronic interlocking, which is written in machine code on a Commodore 64. It is operated to a timetable based in 1912.  Lots of M7s, T9s, T3s and other superb Drummond and Adams locos. Gorgeous coaches and rolling stock from a variety of sources including Southwark Bridge Models.

 

Can you repost the link please? I can't get it to work. 

 

Edit: I got there by just searching www.sbmodels.org and then clicking on the gallery button.

 

A terrific layout. Not many in S4 have reached this level of complexity/size.

[Ceptic]

Two excellent articles, by David Thrower, entitled '150 Years at Waterloo' were published in 'Backtrack' magazine, July http://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/magazine/backtrack/1998julyv12n7.html and August.1998

http://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/magazine/backtrack/1998augustv12n8.html

 

Pt.1 includes an 1890s trackplan and the rebuilt 1922 version, plus photos, in both.

[Southernboy]

Hello 33040:

 

I've been long interested in this subject and would love to find out more about the planned route and terminus in detail, so am glad you have started this thread.

 

From what I recall reading, preparations were made for a line through to a terminus near London Bridge. But it fell through because of the crash in railway investment in the 1840s.

 

Below is the track plan for the original Waterloo. This is redrawn (for copyright reasons) from a more detailed layout plan which is fig. 1.2 on p3 of the South Western Circles's Monograph No 3 'Waterloo Station circa 1900'.

 

 

I'm eagerly awaiting to hear from bishop because this is a subject which has long fascinated me.

 

Buckingham

"The 'Southwark Bridge' layout in S4 is very much around, although unlikely to be exhibited again ... "

 

I check the website from time-to-time as the work of this group fascinates me ... do you know why it is unlikely to be exhibited? Or how people can get to see it? As you say, from the photos I've seen it is quite exquisite.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Has anyone had problems with that website? Ever since I went to it, it is fixed in my browser bar and comes up whatever I first try to type in! Not a problem that I have encountered before on the internet. Anyone know a fix?

[Ceptic]

Found this amongst Google, Waterloo Images.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=waterloo+station+images&hl=en&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=hYsPUd7zDq6k0AWQuIC4DA&sqi=2&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1527&bih=840#imgrc=B4i95LRQZV1qYM%3A%3BZFnGXjryTCTV0M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F3.bp.blogspot.com%252F-sejrwRtKpNg%252FTYYn8t2Q-SI%252FAAAAAAAAAok%252FLZWbp1jQ-mQ%252Fs1600%252FWaterloo%25252B1895.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fturniprail.blogspot.com%252F2011%252F03%252Fmaking-mess-of-station-extending.html%3B1600%3B985

[adanapress]

Nobody seems to have mentioned that curious set of sidings with a remarkable sort of spiral approach road/ramp which lies maybe 250 yards west of Waterloo (East), was that an actual station once?  It was in the Great Bear Street/Great Suffolk street junction area.

Gone now perhaps?  Cobbles throughout and very much disused when I last saw it in the i980s.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Do you mean west of Waterloo East? I think you mean east. Tucked in under the route to Blackfriars was what I think was known as Southwark Goods Station. It specialised in express freight traffic to the continent.

 

Edit:

 

Having checked a map of London, Gt Suffolk St is indeed east of Waterloo and at the site of the Blackfriars SER station mentioned by Bill, below.

 

By the time that I was commuting daily to Charing Cross (1976), the Goods Station had gone and was used as carriage sidings. There were quite interesting ecs movements that linked Holborn Viaduct with Cannon St via the western curve as well, some of which used these sidings.

 

I think the closure (to goods trains at least; there may have remained a road depot) would have been at the time Continental freight traffic was moved out to new facilities at Hither Green (early 60s?). I imagine it would have been busy bringing in perishable goods from abroad. When I was last around there, Napolina (Italian tomatoes) still had their UK HQ there. 

[bbishop]

As promised.....

 

The Nine Elms terminus was inconvenient for passengers and with the increased traffic from the Richmond Railway and potentially the London & Brighton, a bill was submitted to parliament for an extension to Waterloo Bridge.  Opened on 11 July 1848, it was an open station with a ticket platform, from which trains were roped into the station.  It was designed as a through station, with the “offices” on the south side, and initially there weren’t any buffer stops.  In so far as I can tell, the station was always known as Waterloo.

 

Even before the station was opened there were  plans to extend the line, one of which was to cross the Thames at Hungerford, to create a Central Terminus roughly on the site of the present Charing Cross.  This proposal doesn’t appear to have passed the talking stage.

 

The LSWR’s own plan was to build to a terminus at London Bridge.  As there would have been restrictions on Sunday traffic during services, the site was obviously to the east of St Mary Overie (now Southwark Cathedral).  A bill was passed by parliament on 26 August 1846 and some land was purchased but the scheme fell into abeyance and was given up on 28 November 1849.

 

Then the SER decided to build from London Bridge to Charing Cross (with an intermediate station at Blackfriars) and Cannon Street.  There are still traces of the location of Blackfriars just to the west of the LCDR overbridge.  The SER purchased the land acquired by the LSWR, and all the lines were open by September 1866.

 

The LSWR (and the LNWR) perceived the opportunity to gain access to the city.  A single line crossed the Waterloo concourse, bridged Waterloo Road and connected into the SER track, who later relocated their station from Blackfriars to Waterloo Junction.

 

However the LSWR was speaking to the LCDR about their city extension from Herne Hill.  Edward Watkin’s philosophy that “my enemy’s friend is my enemy” was causing problems, and anyway the concept of trains crossing a busy concourse wasn’t really that brilliant, so the connexion fell into general disuse.  Trains from Kingston (via Wimbledon, Tulse Hill and Herne Hill) reached Ludgate Hill on 3 April 1866, followed by trains from Richmond (Turnham Green, Kensington Addison Road, Wandsworth Road) on 1 January 1869.  Passengers for Cannon Street and London Bridge could perambulate to the SER platforms.

 

Then the Waterloo and City line opened in 1898.

 

Bill

[bbishop]

I forgot to quote references:

 

Williams - the London & South Western Railway vols 1 and 2

Chivers - Waterloo Station c 1900

 

Bill

[The Lurker]

I'm intrigued by the reference to the LNER wanting to gain access to the city in post 19. But the longer I think about it the more I think this should be LCDR. Is this right?

[bbishop]

I'm intrigued by the reference to the LNER wanting to gain access to the city in post 19. But the longer I think about it the more I think this should be LCDR. Is this right?

Thanks for spotting, now amended to LNWR.  LCDR access would have been via Beckenham Junc., Crystal Palace, Clapham Junc.; or the Eurostar curve built 120 years earlier.  But Watkin would have made every attempt to block it!

Bill

[The Lurker]

Ah, LNWR, thanks. I'm always amazed by the routes that pre-grouping trains ran - and tend to forget about them

[Oldddudders]

Do you mean west of Waterloo East? I think you mean east. Tucked in under the route to Blackfriars was what I think was known as Southwark Goods Station. It specialised in express freight traffic to the continent.

 

Edit:

 

Having checked a map of London, Gt Suffolk St is indeed east of Waterloo and at the site of the Blackfriars SER station mentioned by Bill, below.

 

By the time that I was commuting daily to Charing Cross (1976), the Goods Station had gone and was used as carriage sidings. There were quite interesting ecs movements that linked Holborn Viaduct with Cannon St via the western curve as well, some of which used these sidings.

 

I think the closure (to goods trains at least; there may have remained a road depot) would have been at the time Continental freight traffic was moved out to new facilities at Hither Green (early 60s?). I imagine it would have been busy bringing in perishable goods from abroad. When I was last around there, Napolina (Italian tomatoes) still had their UK HQ there. 

This was Ewer Street, which seems to have been born about 1899 as a steam depot, complete with 55' turntable, coal and water, but no actual shed. It looked after locos arriving at Cannon St and Charing Cross. I think there was already a Continental freight depot there at that time. Ewer St closed in 1961 with Kent Coast Electrification Phase 2. It was then used as an EMU berthing point. Source - Hawkins & Reeve "Historical Survey of Southern Sheds" Oxford Publishing 1979.

 

Yes, Hither Green Continental Depot was opened about 1962.

[PhilEakins]

Hi Chaps

 

This is a very pertinent thread as we (the members of the South Eastern & Chatham Society) have been investigating the tangled history of this short stretch of line for some months now, following on from a member's article in 'Invicta' (the Society's magazine) and subsequent correspondence/articles on the track configuration and controlling SER signal box.

 

Shortly put, the single line left Waterloo station (originally named Waterloo Bridge) as the extension of a carriage siding, crossed the concourse by a sunken way (under a movable pedestrian bridge) and  crossed the bridge mentioned to a junction with the SER main line from Charing Cross facing towards London Bridge. There was a passenger platform on the bridge known as New Waterloo which was opened in 1865 concurrently with the introduction of the LNWR service from Euston to LB via Battersea, later moved to terminate at Cannon Street. The service ran for about 30 months. There is a timetable for the service at the NRM (ref ALS4/132/D/5) which refers to both Waterloo Bridge, for LSW services, and Waterloo meaning New Waterloo. New Waterloo was an SER station.

 

Waterloo Junction station opened in 1869.

 

Anyone interested, let me know and I'll give you the contact for a copy of the relevant mags (or, even better, join us!) or shout if I can add anything.

 

Cheers.

 

Phil

 

[Edit] For clarification [/Edit]