A tale of two pom-poms

[James Harrison]

On my to-build list this year are a pair of J11s.  One I bought as a built-up kit off of ebay, the other is a planned conversion of the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby 4F.  I also have the Bachmann example on order, but with more of the kit examples coming up on ebay cheaply (it cost me the grand total of £18) it seems an ideal way of building up a respectable loco stud. 

 

We'll make a start on the built kit. 

 

It's a BEC whitemetal kit of... I don't know when.  I'm guessing the mid-60's, considering it's designed to run on a Triang jinty chassis. 

 

First impressions of it were that it was a bit... rugged and basic.  It came in plain black with LNER transfers... but lacking handrails, half of it's footholds, a whistle, coal rails and, oh yes, the bufferbeams are still bare metal.  But it looked to have been well built, so I'm looking at a fairly basic 'rescue' job.  

 

The first job was to leave it in some paint stripper overnight to get the transfers off and loosen up the paint a little.  Then I could get a good look at the thing.  It's been built using glue, which isn't really a problem as such, save for the fact that in some places it's decayed (gone brittle, leaving bits liable to drop off and the remaining glue gone a grotty brown).  I suspect this is what happened to the missing footholds...

 

The problem with it being glued, of course, is that it has in places oozed out of the joints before setting.  Hence the top of the boiler has (had) a long raised scar along its length.... I attacked this with a piece of sandpaper and now luckily it isn't nearly so noticeable.  

 

The other main area needing attention at the moment is the cab roof, where some of the beading somehow got bashed in.  I've removed the affected area with a stanley knife and will replace the beading with plastic strip in due course.

 

Put simply, my planned list of works to the model consists of:

 

-Removing the boiler steampipe (I want a J11 with a saturated boiler)

-Adding handrails

-Replacing missing footholds

-Replacing damaged beading

-Adding coal rails

-New paintwork

-Lining out (LNER pre-1928 lined black) 

 

I've so far removed the more obvious excess glue, removed the damaged beading and removed the steampipe... The next step will be to re-instate the footholds (of the eight it should have, it came with five, and four of those were hanging off... I removed them for safekeeping), fill the holes for the steampipe mounting pips and source some handrail knobs and brass handrail wire. 

[hayfield]

James

 

The paint stripper should / will degrade the glue, so hopfully you will have a kit of parts. I have an un-built one (yes it is a BEC if its whitemetal) and if you get stuck I should have a set of instructions. SEF do an etched chassis to replace the Jinty chassis, if you want  extra detail, not to certain but one of the Comet ones may fit

[Poggy1165]

The external exhaust pipe is not a feature of superheated engines. It was added to both saturated and superheated engines in GC days, the hard bit is knowing exactly when. I suspect when the boiler was first changed, but I cannot prove this.

 

By the way, as I have recently figured out, the same applies to the Q4s. This is annoying, as the pipe makes life much more complex when building a kit, but there you are.

 

My source? Yeadon volume 45. Check out the picture of 204 page 7. Has an external exhaust pipe, shown in GC livery, not superheated until 1928. If you are modelling (say pre 1914) you can probably get away without an external pipe but I would pick a known prototype, like 293 in Johnson volume 1. It would be nice to know the date of the photo, but the engine is rather mucky which suggests possibly wartime. For your era I'd be inclined to leave the pipe on.

 

Suggest you check the kit against a drawing as (from memory) the Bec job has its boiler pitched high, and is closer to a J11/3.

[Pebbles]

I recall that there were J11 plans published in the Model Railway Constructor sometime in the sixties covering both the original and the rebuilds.

[hayfield]

Just checked a plans index and found this

 

 

J11 pom-pom, 0-6-0 DR RM AUG 1998 GCR J11,

GCR class 9J, Pom-Pom, 0-6-0 DR MRN JUN 1962

 

 

Hope this helps

[t-b-g]

As a huge GCR fan I will be following this with interest. I am lucky enough to have 4 J11s so far, so I may not even need a Bachmann one when they come out. Two were scratchbuilt by Peter Denny and came with Buckingham (the oldest being now 65 years old and still runs well and looks very good).

 

The two I have done are from a Little Engines whitemetal kit (done in GCR livery) and a Gibson etched kit (LNER 1930s condition).

 

I remember seeing an article in a magazine on converting a 4F to a J11 and a friend of mine did one many years ago and it looked very convincing. Be a bit wary of the tender drawing if you use the one in MRC. I am pretty sure that the plan view is split down the middle and shows two different water pick up arrangements, although nothing is mentioned in the text. I have seen several model tenders done as per that drawing and the split coal plate across the back looks distinctly odd!  

[James Harrison]

Cheers Poggy, that's a great help.  The pipe would need replacing either way, as the first thing it did when I got the model out the box was snap in two!  The drawing I'll be using for a reference will be the Ian Beattie example in the August 1998 RM.  It's funny that the pitch of the boiler should come up; back a few years ago I had tried to build a J11 from scratch (it didn't end well).  But before that I did consider using a 4F, but found that the boiler was too high.  You can well imagine my 'huh?!?' moment when I idly put my BEC J11 against another 4F and found the boiler pitches match.... but if I try to do something about it no doubt I'll end up with two piles of scrap.  So I guess I'll just have to keep them separate from the Bachmann example. 

 

 

As a huge GCR fan I will be following this with interest. I am lucky enough to have 4 J11s so far, so I may not even need a Bachmann one when they come out. Two were scratchbuilt by Peter Denny and came with Buckingham (the oldest being now 65 years old and still runs well and looks very good).

 

The two I have done are from a Little Engines whitemetal kit (done in GCR livery) and a Gibson etched kit (LNER 1930s condition).

 

I remember seeing an article in a magazine on converting a 4F to a J11 and a friend of mine did one many years ago and it looked very convincing. Be a bit wary of the tender drawing if you use the one in MRC. I am pretty sure that the plan view is split down the middle and shows two different water pick up arrangements, although nothing is mentioned in the text. I have seen several model tenders done as per that drawing and the split coal plate across the back looks distinctly odd!  

 

You've got some of Peter Denny's models?  I'm envious! 

[Pebbles]

Just a thought;should you consider changing the positions of the splashers a J39 wheel base is only 1inch out and that only occurs between the middle and trailing axle.

[James Harrison]

That sounds like a good idea; I've got Jinty chassis and a 4F I'm planning to use but I'll bear that in mind for a back-up plan if it all goes pear-shaped.  I could take a slightly different route and try a Mainline Collett Goods chassis & motor under it too, though I'm not too sure about how the height of the motor might throw things out.

[Earlswood Nob]

G'day all

I spotted the J39 wheelbase was very close and bought a Comet J39 chassis to replace the Triang chassis in a J11 that I picked up on Ebay. The chassis has to be cut down to about half the height to fit, and there still wasn't much room for a motor. I ended up fitting a Mashima 1024 with a High Level gearbox. I really must strip the old paint and respray it.

A Jinty of 4F chassis (they are both the same wheelbase might be a better option.

Earlswood Nob

[James Harrison]

G'day all

I spotted the J39 wheelbase was very close and bought a Comet J39 chassis to replace the Triang chassis in a J11 that I picked up on Ebay. The chassis has to be cut down to about half the height to fit, and there still wasn't much room for a motor. I ended up fitting a Mashima 1024 with a High Level gearbox. I really must strip the old paint and respray it.

A Jinty of 4F chassis (they are both the same wheelbase might be a better option.

Earlswood Nob

 

That probably settles it then- I'll keep the jinty chassis. 

 

I was at the Stafford show today- bought myself a lovely Dean Sidings L1/L3 kit- and got home to realise I'd forgotten to look for some handrail and handrail knobs to push these J11s forward.  D'oh!  Luckily I won't need them until close to the end of the works.  My prospective order of building is looking thus:

 

1) Add coal rails to the tender

2) Refit footsteps

3) Repair roof beading

4) Repaint/ add transfers (including boilerband lining)

5) Fit whistle (another part that needs purchasing)

6) Fit handrails

7) Fit couplings

[James Harrison]

Aha!  Knew I had a photo of the loco in as-bought condition somewhere....

 

 

 

You can basically see what the work's going to entail.... the tender lacks coal rails, there are no handrails on it anywhere, the front bufferbeam is in bare metal and the cab beading is a little buckled.... it is a nice 'toy' as-is, but just a little work would really make it a good model. 

 

Now what I have done so far is to remove that buckled beading, stripped the transfers (and a good deal of the paint) off of it, removed that fairly noticeable streak on top of the boiler and taken the grit off of the moulded coal in the tender. 

[t-b-g]

I don't have the dimensions to hand but the boiler pitch was one of the things that changed with the rebuilding.

 

The J11/3 had piston valves and that required the boiler to be raised by several inches to make room for them.

 

The previously published 4F conversion article (Model Trains October 1981 - Vivien Thompson) states that the 4F dimensions are a better match for the J11/3 rather than the origibal version. It makes sense as the 4Fs had pistin valves too and so the boiler would have to sit at a similar height.

 

The article is worth a look as it details of all the bits from other locos that were used in the conversion and also includes drawings showing how the conversion was done. It also has photos of J11/1s and J11/3s although they are quite small and not too clear.

 

If you are going to use a 4F to make a J11/1, you are going to either cut the body down by several millimetres or accept that the boiler is at the wrong height.

 

As for the Denny models, I have been exremely lucky and have had the opportunity to become their custodian by kind agreement with Peter's family.

 

We have been able to exhibit Leighton Buzzard at several shows and the rest of the layout is being slowly rebuilt, back to full operational condition.

 

Tony

[James Harrison]

I don't have the dimensions to hand but the boiler pitch was one of the things that changed with the rebuilding.

 

The J11/3 had piston valves and that required the boiler to be raised by several inches to make room for them.

 

The previously published 4F conversion article (Model Trains October 1981 - Vivien Thompson) states that the 4F dimensions are a better match for the J11/3 rather than the origibal version. It makes sense as the 4Fs had pistin valves too and so the boiler would have to sit at a similar height.

 

The article is worth a look as it details of all the bits from other locos that were used in the conversion and also includes drawings showing how the conversion was done. It also has photos of J11/1s and J11/3s although they are quite small and not too clear.

 

If you are going to use a 4F to make a J11/1, you are going to either cut the body down by several millimetres or accept that the boiler is at the wrong height.

 

As for the Denny models, I have been exremely lucky and have had the opportunity to become their custodian by kind agreement with Peter's family.

 

We have been able to exhibit Leighton Buzzard at several shows and the rest of the layout is being slowly rebuilt, back to full operational condition.

 

Tony

 

I read in one of those 'Model Railway Locomotive Building on the Cheap' books that the boilers were raised 4'' to get the piston valves in.  Which is a bit of an annoyance, because in 4mm scale that's only a smidge over 1mm out!  It also means for me personally that looking at photographs of the prototype I struggle to tell J11/3s from J11/1s- it's the slightly pinched-in look of the cab windows and the cut down boiler mountings that give it away for me.  

 

Thinking about it, all it would need would be a couple of cuts to the 4F with a dremel cutting disc and some cleaning up afterward to get it dead-right.... I was going to say I could live with the 1mm compromise but if it would be a 5-minute job I don't see that I have anything to lose by giving it a go. 

 

I'm very glad to hear that Buckingham Great Central is still with us and being restored; it was reading some of Peter Denny's articles in old copies of Railway Modeller that got me interested in the GCR originally.  It would have been tragic to lose the layout.  

[Earlswood Nob]

Morning all

The Dean Sidings L1/L3 kits also fits a J39 chassis, reversed, ie long gap to the front. The total wheelbase is exact, but the middle axle is 1.33mm out.

It was an article about Peter Denny's Buckingham in a magazine which convinced me to try railway modelling.

Earlswood Nob

[James Harrison]

Morning all

The Dean Sidings L1/L3 kits also fits a J39 chassis, reversed, ie long gap to the front. The total wheelbase is exact, but the middle axle is 1.33mm out.

It was an article about Peter Denny's Buckingham in a magazine which convinced me to try railway modelling.

Earlswood Nob

 

 

That's very useful to know; do Bachmann still sell their chassis separately?  I can vaguely recall seeing them being sold in a local model shop years ago, but not seen them around for quite some time.  I'll do a bit of googling and see if I can find one- the only complete jinty chassis I can find on Ebay at the moment is going for £35.... silly money!

 

I have somewhere in my spares box a Bachmann Collett Goods chassis- I might try fitting that in, see how it goes. 

[t-b-g]

I read in one of those 'Model Railway Locomotive Building on the Cheap' books that the boilers were raised 4'' to get the piston valves in.  Which is a bit of an annoyance, because in 4mm scale that's only a smidge over 1mm out!  It also means for me personally that looking at photographs of the prototype I struggle to tell J11/3s from J11/1s- it's the slightly pinched-in look of the cab windows and the cut down boiler mountings that give it away for me.  

 

Thinking about it, all it would need would be a couple of cuts to the 4F with a dremel cutting disc and some cleaning up afterward to get it dead-right.... I was going to say I could live with the 1mm compromise but if it would be a 5-minute job I don't see that I have anything to lose by giving it a go. 

 

I'm very glad to hear that Buckingham Great Central is still with us and being restored; it was reading some of Peter Denny's articles in old copies of Railway Modeller that got me interested in the GCR originally.  It would have been tragic to lose the layout.  

 

The two things that stand out for me between the J11/1 and J11/3 are the piston valves sticking out under the smoke box door instead of the "piano front" and the relationship between the cab front/windows/firebox top. The piston valves are easy to sort out, just take them off the 4F and replace with a curved lump of plastic. If you did a slight adjustment to the cab (and boiler mountings) height to allow the correct cab windows you would probably fool 99% of people including me!

 

I thought the same about Buckingham. I have had to build a large shed and give up any realistic prospects of ever constructing a substantial layout of my own but it is worth it to have my favourite all time layout here. Any layout I would have built would have been based closely on Buckingham anyway, so I haven't had to settle for a pale imitation! It is the only layout I would have dreamed of getting involved with in this way, as my main interest has always been building layouts rather than restoration work on old ones!

 

I knew Peter a little bit and had done some jobs for Buckingham for him, mending locos and suchlike, so at least the family knew of me and that I was hopefully up to the task of keeping 60 year old locos going!

[Earlswood Nob]

G'dday all

This thread has got me thinking. I have one J11 which I've fitted with a J39 chassis, and another waiting for something to be done with it.

I could alter them into a J11/1 and a J11/3. I'll have to look at pics to see the exact difference.

By the way, I think the Collett goods has a 7'3+8'3 chassis. This would make it ideal for a J3/J52, but a bit short for a J11.

Earlswood Nob

[James Harrison]

G'dday all

This thread has got me thinking. I have one J11 which I've fitted with a J39 chassis, and another waiting for something to be done with it.

I could alter them into a J11/1 and a J11/3. I'll have to look at pics to see the exact difference.

By the way, I think the Collett goods has a 7'3+8'3 chassis. This would make it ideal for a J3/J52, but a bit short for a J11.

Earlswood Nob

 

The J11/3 has a boiler pitched 4'' higher than that of a J11/1; this is most noticeable around the cab, where the windows have been pinched in a little over the firebox to get the height in.  Under the smokebox are a pair of piston tails, rather than the flat-fronted saddle.  The chimney and dome are squatter than on a J11/1 (and I think Alan Gibson does them as brass castings- also the complete smokebox front). 

 

I tried the Collett chassis under the L1/L3, but it won't go.... luckily (he says) I have a jinty in the spares box.  It was planned for conversion to an ex-GC J13, but as that won't be happening for quite some time (maybe in a year or two) it could be seconded for use under the big 2-6-4 instead.  Please don't make me add a J3 to my projects list- it's long enough as it is!

[James Harrison]

Back to the first of the J11s- I set-to last night with some offcuts of 0.5mm plastic sheet, 2mm square plastic square section, 1mm palstic rod and 0.5mm plastic rod, and this is how far I got with it:

 

 

 

I began by re-attaching the footsteps which had fallen off; I had three left from the tender and the two below the footplate on the locomotive.  This leaves three to entirely replace, which I have begun on the locomotive by cutting some 2mm square plastic section, sanding down one end of it until it will fit in the locating hole left behind by the missing footstep, and gluing it into place.  When it has fully set I'll rebuild the footsteps. 

 

I added new coalrails from plastic sheet, which has really transformed the look of the tender. 

 

I cut a tiny sliver of the sheet, coated it with solvent to soften it a little, and then glued it into place on the cab roof to replace the damaged beading.  I'm not sure that this has quite taken... it looks good in the flesh but the photos show it lifted at the corners.  I might replace it.  

 

I took the 1mm plastic rod and cut 16 3mm lengths of it.  Each one I then set into the holes for the handrail knobs to the depth of the the casting, lining them up with tweezers and rule and looking down along the length of them to make sure they were in line.  You need 7 on each side (5 on the boiler, 2 on the cab) and 2 for the tender back. 

 

After this had set overnight, I cut some lengths of 0.5mm plastic rod this morning and glued them into place on my new 'knobs'.  To complete the knobs I'm later going to give them a cap of a tiny piece of glue.  They look good in the flesh but the photos suggest they're rough....

 

The glue I'm using for this is the 'UHU' type.  I'm finding that it has a nice immediate 'grab' between parts but having to be very careful not to get trails of the stuff everywhere. 

[James Harrison]

Well, I've finished the major work now; just the smaller details to complete and I can call this one finished and start on the 4F/J11 conversion. 

 

The missing footsteps called for a bit of thought and care.  Yesterday you may recall I fitted some lengths of filed down 2mm square plastic section into the locating lugs.  What I then did, using the Ian Beattie drawing for a guide, was to cut some pieces of 0.5mm plastic sheet to form the backing plate, and then take more of the 2mm square section and cut it to lengths appropriate for the footsteps.  I then took a couple of small files in the toolbox and carefully filed into the square section to remove the mass of it, leaving a tiny 'U' shaped piece of plastic that I could then glue to the backing plate.  When it had all set I could then glue that to the square section already fitted to the model. 

 

So tonight I was able to give the model a coat of paint.  Humbrol #33 'Matt Black' (it looks glossy because it is still wet).  Now we're into the final detailing stages- brass around the window surrounds, cream in the cab, red on the bufferbeams (but not the buffer stocks), transfers, varnish and weathering. 

 

 

 

 

I'm very happy with how this has turned out!  Compared to my first attempt a few years ago...

[James Harrison]

I managed a little more work on it last night...

 

It needed a second coat of black, and then when that had dried I painted up the bufferbeams (Humbrol 73, IIRC), safety valves and window surrounds (Humbrol 54) and the inside of the cab (Humbrol 90). 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm thinking of going with a pre-1928 treatment for the insignia (it's a handy touch so I can make my models that bit more 'unique' than their RTR counterparts).  So 'LNER' in small letters on the tender and '4413' in large numerals below. 

[Poggy1165]

Some engines did run for some years after 1928 with pre 1928 lettering. However, if you are numbering her 4413, that suggests the 1946 (or whenever it was) renumbering scheme, by which time pre 1928 numbering styles would be a gonner. For a pre-Thompson era loco you need a number beginning with '5' or '6'.  On the other hand if you are doing Thompson era you can have all kinds of weird and wonderful numbering styles, just not on the tender.

 

(Actually presuming it's a maker's plate on the splasher, that's probably a very early LNER number plate on the cab. At least that's what I've seen these things alleged to be, I've yet to see a close-up photo of one. They were apparently put on when the big GCR number plates were removed, at a time when the engine number was painted on the tender.)

[James Harrison]

That's a very useful bit of info (and saved me making a boo-boo!)  The loco arrived as '4413' which I thought was a little odd as every other ex-GC engine seemed to have kept it's GC number with a 5 prefixed.  So; I'm planning to do 5219 as my 4F bash, ordered 5317 from Bachmann, and there's a very nice photo of 5313 on the LNER website of around the period I'm modelling.  I might go with 5313; it'll use up some of the lesser-used numbers on the transfer sheet and I can find a photo to go off!

 

I'm also checking if they were all put in lined black livery; the picture of 5219 at Neasden in 1926 (which appeared as part of the RM article in August 1998) hints at boiler bands and cabside lining (though red lining on a black background captured with monochrome camera film is a recipe for eyestrain...), whilst a fair few models I've seen in pre-1928 livery are in plain black.  It would be nice to have a go at the lining; perhaps on the next one.  So that will be one in post-1928 livery, one in pre-1928 as an unlined example and one in pre-1928 as a lined example.  

 

And here I am, adding the Metropolitan into the mix for added variety in liveries!

[Poggy1165]

During WWI the GC finished many engines, including J11s, with a single coat of unlined black. There is evidence that some, at least initially, just had 'Great Central' painted out and LNER lettering/numbering substituted. Officially all ought to have been painted in the early LNER lined black livery, but whether they all were I wouldn't like to bet. You are wise to go with photos of known engines - less chance of being wrong.

 

(As a total aside, my grandfather was oiling the inside motion of one of these in Gorton Yard in 1918 when another engine ran into it. A driving wheel went over his heel, and that was the end of his footplate career! I have always had a liking for the class, I've got one in 7mm scale, and have just bought a kit to build another. Hence I have steeped myself in the available info. re. the class, which sadly is not as complete as I would like. For example finding a photo of one of the Yorkshire Engine locos in GC livery is like looking for hen's teeth. So the new one will probably end up as one of the other batches.)