Michael Delamar Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 ive had this wagon for years and always planned to detail it up but never got round to researching how best to go about it. inspired by this.. http://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/model_omwb41.html .. I fancy giving it a go. what id like to do is replace the bogies as ive never seen a shot of one with this type and I just dont like them really. and id also like to reproduce the higher bolsters as in the article above. couple of questions, bogies, what bogies should I be looking at? Cambrian do some but im not sure they do the ones for this? and would any cambrian kits of other wagon types that come with bolsters be suitable to use the bolsters? Im thinking on a cambrian Salmon and not building it with the bolsters and wondered would they be suitable for this? rather than scratchbuild, if not it doesnt look hard to do. it is a bit bannana shaped but I can sort that, it only has 1 screw in at the moment. also paint, best spray can for the grey? ive got another one somewhere, and will hopefully be aquiring a Lima bolster E soon, I know what bits to get for that but id like to get the shopping list done at the same time. cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Mike, the bogies are correct for the LMS version, but the sockets on the bodyside were only on the GWR and BR versions. Bachmann do the GW one with plate bogies and the same body. The higher bolsters are for the BR-built version of the GW design. (I think that's correct, all based on looking at photos). The long Salmon bogies are too long, I think the short ones are right (I don't have one handy to check) but Ratio also do short plate bogies. Unless you want it ex-works, Humbrol 64 looks ok for faded BR grey. I think Precision do the correct shade. Edit - it needs a lever handbrake too, check photos for details as they wandered a bit. I think I used one of the short Parkside ones - I'm going to have to go rummaging for a look now if only to satisfy my own curiosity ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share Posted February 12, 2013 thanks Stuart, I never knew it was LMS design, ive no found it on Paul Bartlett's site, I was looking in the wrong place.. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsbogiebolster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Without measuring one up I reckon the bolsters on the Bogie Bolster D from Cambrian should be the required higher BR type. Cambrian bogies from the same kit should also do the job. On the subject of holes in the bogie side frames. Any body able to quote chapter and verse as to which type on which batch or version? I thought I had a rough idea but the odd photo comes to light that leaves me confused again. John at Cambridge Custom Transfers does a very nice sheet covering the BB Ds. Usual disclaimer, with knobs on, as he offered me help over selecting the correct number. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 The reference for the Cambrian bogies is C68 (BR Plate bogies). These don't have the large holes that the GWR versions have. I think you'll have to scratch-build the bolsters- I did on mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 The BR built Bogie Bolster Cs were based on the GWR Macaw B with very slight changes to the underframe trussing and bolster positions. Bogies for the unfitted exampes were mainly BR plate though the first few lots had the GWR type (Bachmann does these as has been mentioned). Some of the BR plate bogies had large holes in them as per the GWR version (on which it was based), some didn't. Not sure why. Fitted examples had either Roller bearing BR plate bogies or the Gloucester type. The height of the bolsters varied between lots. Some had high, some low. There wasn't a general BR policy. The wagon you've got Michael is a GWR Macaw B (presumably Mainline) dressed up as an LMS wagon. The bow is entirely prototypical if a little pronounced. They were built with an upward bow so that they ended up flat under load. Otherwise they would of course have ended up bowing downwards in the middle along with whatever the load was. Justin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share Posted February 12, 2013 thanks men. what ill do is order a set of c68 plate bogies, a set of smiths instanters and ill scratchbuild the taller bolsters, pretty easy but what I would prefer is some dimensions if anyone knows of any please? improved buffers im not sure of? reason I said Cambrian Salmon was just to pinch the bolsters and then build the salmon, I wouldnt want to purchase one to then scavange the bogies aswel, especially as they are available seperatley. also need to order a pair of c72 David and lloyd bogies for my Lima bolster E. just went to order on H&A website but their site is down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 re- holes in bogie sideframes - I'd have to suggest they were something to do with access to the brakeblocks, as thats what's behind the frame in this area - I'm not sure if they were intended to help when inspecting or changing, but I bet changing the brake blocks is a real pig of a job on these. even with a hole! Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Michael Delamar said, thanks men. improved buffers im not sure of? Try Lanarkshire Models buffer number B023, that's what I used for my bolster and is correct for most lots of GW and BR. Some bolster Cs were retro fitted with other types and a few got Oleos much later. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 thanks Dave, ive ordered some of them and the H&Amodels site is back up so ordered some cambrian bits from them cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naugytrax Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I have an old Hornby model, ref. R.023, which looks very similar to the model in the photo above. Hornby branded this as a "Salmon", DB996821, but it doesn't look like the pictures of any Salmon that I can find. In particular, it doesn't have the fixtures for holding loads of rail sections. Would I be right in thinking that my model would be more legitimate (even if not necessarily authentic) if I rebranded it as an ex-LMS bolster C? The bogies are the fabricated arch-bar type, so I know it's not right for an ex-GWR wagon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I have an old Hornby model, ref. R.023, which looks very similar to the model in the photo above. Hornby branded this as a "Salmon", DB996821, but it doesn't look like the pictures of any Salmon that I can find. In particular, it doesn't have the fixtures for holding loads of rail sections. Would I be right in thinking that my model would be more legitimate (even if not necessarily authentic) if I rebranded it as an ex-LMS bolster C? The bogies are the fabricated arch-bar type, so I know it's not right for an ex-GWR wagon. Hornby have a habit of playing fast and loose with wagon identities; a Salmon would be about a third or so longer than the Hornby model. Are you sure of the reference number- according to Hammond, R023 was a 'Blue' Bulk Grain hopper? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naugytrax Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 a habit of playing fast and loose with wagon identities Yes, and they used to be pretty casual about "R" numbers too, so Hammond could quite well be right. But just for the record, on the box of my model it says "R.023 R.23 B.R. SALMON BOGIE RAIL WAGON". It appears in the 1971 catalog (Edition 18) as R.23. The previous year (Edition 17) it appeared with a load of 3 road vehicles as R.563. And at that time, the blue Bulk Grain Wagons were R.648, R.649 etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Yes, and they used to be pretty casual about "R" numbers too, so Hammond could quite well be right. But just for the record, on the box of my model it says "R.023 R.23 B.R. SALMON BOGIE RAIL WAGON". It appears in the 1971 catalog (Edition 18) as R.23. The previous year (Edition 17) it appeared with a load of 3 road vehicles as R.563. And at that time, the blue Bulk Grain Wagons were R.648, R.649 etc.I suspect it's the model that goes back to the fairly early, Triang, days. Here's a link to ex-LMS Bogie Bolsters:- http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsbogiebolster If you didn't want to repaint it, then it could always become a 'Prawn' (Bolster C built for departmental use, nominally for the S&T) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 The reference to LMS is misleading. Justin in posting 6 is correct. Tri-ang modelled a BR Bogie bolster C. On the prototype there were variations of bogies and adjustability of bolsters. I believe the Tri-ang example is a diag 1/471 or 473 - the centre bolsters are fixed the outer bolsters are adjustable - the stanchion pockets on the outside of the body indicate this. 471 had a GWR style plate back bogie with 8 x 41/2in. journals and a pair of coil springs. A lot of the earlier ones had spoke wheels. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brbco/ec2709b2 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brbco/e10dfc1eb 1/473 had a similar bogie without the holes and with 9x41/2in journal and one coil spring http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bogies/e703b23d and http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brbco/e555f86f (but on a later 1/475 with high bolsters) http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brbco Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naugytrax Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Gentlemen, thanks for the info and the links to photos. It has become clear that the Triang-Hornby model is of the GWR/BR type, as shown by the stanchion pockets on the sides. The underframe trusses don't seem to match anything in particular, but there is at least some representation of a brake lever. The bogies are not the usual GWR plate type, which had misled me. However, David Larkin says about the 30-ton Bogie Bolster Wagon that "early BR-built wagons have diamond-frame bogies" so I'm going to imagine that my bogus Salmon is really one of those! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Gentlemen, thanks for the info and the links to photos. It has become clear that the Triang-Hornby model is of the GWR/BR type, as shown by the stanchion pockets on the sides. The underframe trusses don't seem to match anything in particular, but there is at least some representation of a brake lever. The bogies are not the usual GWR plate type, which had misled me. However, David Larkin says about the 30-ton Bogie Bolster Wagon that "early BR-built wagons have diamond-frame bogies" so I'm going to imagine that my bogus Salmon is really one of those! Dave never mentioned this when we were preparing BR wagons, and I have no evidence that any of the BR ordered BBC had diamond bogies. I looked at a lot of photos when preparing table 20. Diamonds are present on BBD. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Dave never mentioned this when we were preparing BR wagons, and I have no evidence that any of the BR ordered BBC had diamond bogies. I looked at a lot of photos when preparing table 20. Diamonds are present on BBD. Paul Bartlett For anybody interested in adding to the BB fleet. Examples of the BB D with either version of the bogies and also the LNER Quint are available from Cambrian. Bogies of both types plate and diamond are also vilable on their own. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 I met Lanarkshire models at the EM gauge society AGM yesterday and they where very nice, it was funny as I didnt know they where attending or I would have waited a couple of days instead of mail ordering from them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 I made a start on the bogie c this afternoon, but first I built a Cambrian LMS 50ft Salmon which I messed up by not realising to add a centre piece to the floor so had to make the end boards from plasticard, should be ok as the wagon is to be built without bolsters and with a load of track, but at least I wont make that mistake again. apart from that its a nice kit which doesnt take long to build and Ill be doing some more why I built that first was to see what was left in the way of spares for the bogie c, apart from some spare brake wheels for my sturgeon the bolsters are spare. so i placed them on to see what they looked like, opinions? it is not stuck on in this picture just placed, I was thinking on using these and then adding the side brackets from plasticard.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 actually I can see now that it wouldnt look like the bolster, found a great shot in John Vaughn's Diesels on the midland, showing a bogie c being hauled by a pair of claytons, can see the bolsters in detail as its a high angle shot. the it also has holes in the bogies which mine wont have. so still debating on what to do here. also still debating on whether it will be a normal or engineers version. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 on closer inspection this is a D, but posting anyway because I thought the load and shot was interesting. 31xxx x2 Harringay West 10.66 by George of Dufton, on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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