Hawksworth Brake Coaches - the differences?

[OnTheBranchline]

Although I see there are physical differences between these brake coaches (you should probably look at them before commenting):

 

Hornby R 4502 - Brake 3rd

Hornby R 4504 - Brake 3rd

Hornby R 4500 - Passenger Brake

 

I'm curious on would there be situations where you would use one type of brake coach over another (using a brake third for more seats) or am I not talking sense?

[fender]

seats vs luggage space? I would imagine it would be down to whether the working had a lot of luggage (or other items) to carry vs wanting more seats. maybe someone else will chime in on that.

 

full brakes were also used in non-passenger workings for hauling parcels or milk churns, for example, or simply as brakes to be used on fast goods trains as they could go at express passenger speeds.

[Nick Holliday]

The Passenger Brake (Full brake) R4500 is primarily for the carriage of large quantities of luggage or parcels.  It probably would appear attached to the rear of long trains when large amounts of passenger luggage was expected, or tacked on the back of any train if carrying specific traffic, such as newspapers, and it might then be detached en route for unloading.  It might also appear in dedicated parcel trains, providing the accommodation for the guard.

All passenger trains were required to carry a guard, and most rakes of three or more coaches usually were topped and tailed with a brake coach, and R4502 Brake Third would be a typical example, with first class accommodation being found in the intermediate coaches, either a full first carriage, or a composite coach which has compartments for first and third class passengers (and second class too depending on era). R4504 is actually a composite brake, with compartments for both classes, and, judging from the photos of the model, limited luggage space.  I suspect that it wouldn't normally be used as part of a rake of coaches, as the normal proportions of accommodation would be hard to achieve, although it might happen where local conditions suited.  Where it might be used is as a self-contained section on a train which splits at a number of places en-route, with one or two coaches such as this being forwarded to their final destination attached to the local branch train, such as occurred in Devon and Cornwall.

[The Stationmaster]

 

full brakes were also used in non-passenger workings for hauling parcels or milk churns, for example, or simply as brakes to be used on fast goods trains as they could go at express passenger speeds.

Alas not correct - passenger brake vans marshalled in freight trains were required to be either next to the engine or immediately in front of the brakevan on fully fitted trains, on partially fitted trains they were normally required to be next to the engine.  Ordinary freight brake vans were permitted to be used on fast freights (i.e. 60 mph plus) provided their wheelbase exceeded 15 ft but that was altered in the 1960s when various restrictions were imposed on 4-wheelers hence they could not be used on Freightliner trains.

 

I suspect you might be thinking of passenger brakevans being used on Freightliner trains for while - a completely separate matter.

[Silver Sidelines]

Alas not correct ????

Mike, there was a recent thread about Siphons and milk trains where it was indicated that a Full Brake coach would have been used for the guard.  I would be interested to learn whether the Full Brake would have had to be marshalled at the rear or whether because it was a fully fitted train whether the Full Brake could have been placed between some of the Siphons - making it easier to pick up extra vans 'en route'.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[The Stationmaster]

Mike, there was a recent thread about Siphons and milk trains where it was indicated that a Full Brake coach would have been used for the guard.  I would be interested to learn whether the Full Brake would have had to be marshalled at the rear or whether because it was a fully fitted train whether the Full Brake could have been placed between some of the Siphons - making it easier to pick up extra vans 'en route'.

 

Regards

 

Ray

Sorry Ray - maybe I should shown freight trains in bold to avoid any confusion with milk etc trains.  I'm duly altering my post to hopefully clarify.

 

As far as milk trains were concerned vehicles were allowed behind the brake van although I'm not sure of how many without checking.

[Karhedron]

there was a recent thread about Siphons and milk trains where it was indicated that a Full Brake coach would have been used for the guard.  I would be interested to learn whether the Full Brake would have had to be marshalled at the rear or whether because it was a fully fitted train whether the Full Brake could have been placed between some of the Siphons - making it easier to pick up extra vans 'en route'.

I have seen photos of milk trains with the BG in intermediate positions in the train. Several of the photos on this page show tanks or siphons after the Full Brake.

 

http://froxfield2012.smugmug.com/BRWesternRegion/Southcote-Junction/27465410_MT64SJ/2220506172_svRcCbr#!i=2220506172&k=svRcCbr

[Silver Sidelines]

I have seen photos of milk trains with the BG in intermediate positions in the train.

 Thank you for the link - very useful pictures.  Yes and also thanks to Mike above for clarifying his answer.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[fender]

Alas not correct - passenger brake vans marshalled in freight trains were required to be either next to the engine or immediately in front of the brakevan on fully fitted trains, on partially fitted trains they were normally required to be next to the engine.  Ordinary freight brake vans were permitted to be used on fast freights (i.e. 60 mph plus) provided their wheelbase exceeded 15 ft but that was altered in the 1960s when various restrictions were imposed on 4-wheelers hence they could not be used on Freightliner trains.

 

I suspect you might be thinking of passenger brakevans being used on Freightliner trains for while - a completely separate matter.

actually I was thinking of the milk trains. should have been more specific, but didn't know about the other restrictions either:)

[OnTheBranchline]

I have seen photos of milk trains with the BG in intermediate positions in the train. Several of the photos on this page show tanks or siphons after the Full Brake.

 

http://froxfield2012.smugmug.com/BRWesternRegion/Southcote-Junction/27465410_MT64SJ/2220506172_svRcCbr#!i=2220506172&k=svRcCbr

 

Would there be any pictures of milk trains from the GWR days?

[The Stationmaster]

actually I was thinking of the milk trains. should have been more specific, but didn't know about the other restrictions either:)

I can't find a specific figure for milk trains but as far as the GWR was concerned I am presuming the standard Passenger Train Instruction applied and, except on very steep gradients, the limit of 40 wheels behind the brake van would have applied.

[Karhedron]

Would there be any pictures of milk trains from the GWR days?

Yes but they might be a bit difficult to find online. Going backwards in time, tanker traffic becomes less and churn traffic more significant. Prior to the introduction of tankers, most milk on the GWR was transported in siphons. These were special vans designed to run at passenger speeds and featuring slatted sides so that the flow of air would keep the milk cool.

 

The best source of info on these vehicles is "Great Western Siphons" by Jack Slinn and Bernard Clarke. It has not been in print for a while but 2nd hand copies are fairly common.

[OnTheBranchline]

Yes but they might be a bit difficult to find online. Going backwards in time, tanker traffic becomes less and churn traffic more significant. Prior to the introduction of tankers, most milk on the GWR was transported in siphons. These were special vans designed to run at passenger speeds and featuring slatted sides so that the flow of air would keep the milk cool.

 

The best source of info on these vehicles is "Great Western Siphons" by Jack Slinn and Bernard Clarke. It has not been in print for a while but 2nd hand copies are fairly common.

I believe in the milk thread, we talked about how there was a special 'brake siphon' that would be at the end of a milk train, or would that be an ordinary siphon or just a brake coach (in GWR days)?

[Karhedron]

I believe in the milk thread, we talked about how there was a special 'brake siphon' that would be at the end of a milk train, or would that be an ordinary siphon or just a brake coach (in GWR days)?

I am not aware of such a thing as a "brake siphon" although I am prepared to be educated.

 

I am pretty sure that even before tanks were introduced, milk trains would still have required a passenger brake vehicle to provide accomodation for the Guard. Normally this would have been an older model BG. There were a small batch of "milk brakes" to diagram O13 which were converted from WW1 pharmacy cars. One is preserved on the SVR. They are handsome little vehicles but there were only 4 and there were many more milk trains than that.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/beerdave1745/4968634454/

[OnTheBranchline]

I am not aware of such a thing as a "brake siphon" although I am prepared to be educated.

 

I am pretty sure that even before tanks were introduced, milk trains would still have required a passenger brake vehicle to provide accomodation for the Guard. Normally this would have been an older model BG. There were a small batch of "milk brakes" to diagram O13 which were converted from WW1 pharmacy cars. One is preserved on the SVR. They are handsome little vehicles but there were only 4 and there were many more milk trains than that.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/beerdave1745/4968634454/

 

I am just having a hard time imaging having a brake coach with RTR GWR coaches - a Bachmann C set brake coach say.

 

I have three milk tankers with a brake van, which I could argue, could come from a branchline.

[OnTheBranchline]

The Passenger Brake (Full brake) R4500 is primarily for the carriage of large quantities of luggage or parcels.  It probably would appear attached to the rear of long trains when large amounts of passenger luggage was expected, or tacked on the back of any train if carrying specific traffic, such as newspapers, and it might then be detached en route for unloading.  It might also appear in dedicated parcel trains, providing the accommodation for the guard.

All passenger trains were required to carry a guard, and most rakes of three or more coaches usually were topped and tailed with a brake coach, and R4502 Brake Third would be a typical example, with first class accommodation being found in the intermediate coaches, either a full first carriage, or a composite coach which has compartments for first and third class passengers (and second class too depending on era). R4504 is actually a composite brake, with compartments for both classes, and, judging from the photos of the model, limited luggage space.  I suspect that it wouldn't normally be used as part of a rake of coaches, as the normal proportions of accommodation would be hard to achieve, although it might happen where local conditions suited.  Where it might be used is as a self-contained section on a train which splits at a number of places en-route, with one or two coaches such as this being forwarded to their final destination attached to the local branch train, such as occurred in Devon and Cornwall.

Would there be a certain number of coaches that would have to be reached before the full brake was used? Ex. 5-6 or 7-8+?

[Karhedron]

I am just having a hard time imaging having a brake coach with RTR GWR coaches - a Bachmann C set brake coach say.

 

I have three milk tankers with a brake van, which I could argue, could come from a branchline.

Bare in mind that the brake coaches used for milk trains were normally older vehicles that had been cascaded from passenger service. In Siphon days I can imagine some like a Dean Clerestory of Toplight full brake being used.

 

If you are modelling a branchline then the milk vehicles could easily be added as tail traffic to a passenger service. In this case, there would be no need for a separate BG as the passenger part of the train would already include accomodation for the guard. Hemyock is the best known example of this where a train often consisted of a Brake 3rd and up to 5 tankers. The Saltash Autotrain often brought a tanker or two to Plymouth North Road to be attached to Penzance - Kensington milk train.

 

http://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2011/11/22/some-early-lines-culm-valley-light-railway/hemyock-stn/

[OnTheBranchline]

Bare in mind that the brake coaches used for milk trains were normally older vehicles that had been cascaded from passenger service. In Siphon days I can imagine some like a Dean Clerestory of Toplight full brake being used.

 

If you are modelling a branchline then the milk vehicles could easily be added as tail traffic to a passenger service. In this case, there would be no need for a separate BG as the passenger part of the train would already include accomodation for the guard. Hemyock is the best known example of this where a train often consisted of a Brake 3rd and up to 5 tankers. The Saltash Autotrain often brought a tanker or two to Plymouth North Road to be attached to Penzance - Kensington milk train.

 

http://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2011/11/22/some-early-lines-culm-valley-light-railway/hemyock-stn/

For mainline milk runs with Siphons, is there a minimal number of Siphons that would be included in a milk train?

[Adrian Wintle]

. In Siphon days I can imagine some like a Dean Clerestory...

 

Much more likely to be a non-clerestory Dean 40' brake van (most were non-gangwayed).

 

Adrian

[Karhedron]

For mainline milk runs with Siphons, is there a minimal number of Siphons that would be included in a milk train?

Now we are starting to get a bit earlier than I usually go. In tanker days, the Penzance to Kensington milk train started off with just a couple of tanks when it left Penzance and picked up more en-route. I would guess that something similar happened in earlier days but I don't really know for sure.

 

I think in earlier days, there may have been fewer dedicated milk trains and more instances of siphons being attached as tail traffic, even on the main line. All I can suggest is checking albums from the period and hoping you come across something.

[Nick Holliday]

Would there be a certain number of coaches that would have to be reached before the full brake was used? Ex. 5-6 or 7-8+?

 I am no expert on GWR matters, but looking at the proportions of new stock it would seem that when they built the Cornish Riviera stock a "typical" train would have had three non-brake coaches for every pair of brake thirds/compos, whilst the later and more luxurious Centenary stock was built more in the proportion of two normal coaches sandwiched between two brakes.  The provision of luggage space would depend very much on the route and time of year, and also some of the brakes with passenger accommodation had very little luggage space and others vast space but few passengers, so the people organising the diagrams would take this into account.

That parcel traffic was considerable on the GWR is highlighted by the fact that diesel railcars dedicated to this traffic were built by both the Great Western and British Railways, and they often ran with a tail load of one or two vans when necessary.

One final point is that the Hawksworth vans were hardly GW stock, appearing very close to Nationalisation.

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

The guys above are right to suggest that the ratio of full brake to passenger coaches was not really the issue - the purpose of the train is what is key. For example, the ocean liner train I am modelling at the moment on Little Didcot is one of those exception type affairs. This was a fast, luxury service to the docks and as such had the unusual formation of full brake, MONSTER (although I have used a SIPHON G because I can!) super saloon with kitchen, super saloon, super saloon, full brake. I am not entirely sure but I suspect that there was a bit more than just luggage in the full brakes / bogie CCT. There weren't THAT many people on the train!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Castle]

Much more likely to be a non-clerestory Dean 40' brake van (most were non-gangwayed).

 

Adrian

Hi Adrian,

 

Just like this one:

 

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/coaches/933/933.html

 

No. 933 is nearing the end of a fairly extensive restoration inside and out and in need of just a few more details and a bit more interior work.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Coach bogie]

Much more likely to be a non-clerestory Dean 40' brake van (most were non-gangwayed).

 

Adrian

There was a clerestory K17 ex TPO brake that was used on milk trains. There is an often published shot by Maurice Early of Caynham Court, 2 x 6 wheel tankers and the K17 heading for Wootten basset through Sonning Cutting.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Adrian Wintle]

 I am no expert on GWR matters, but looking at the proportions of new stock it would seem that when they built the Cornish Riviera stock a "typical" train would have had three non-brake coaches for every pair of brake thirds/compos, whilst the later and more luxurious Centenary stock was built more in the proportion of two normal coaches sandwiched between two brakes.  The provision of luggage space would depend very much on the route and time of year, and also some of the brakes with passenger accommodation had very little luggage space and others vast space but few passengers, so the people organising the diagrams would take this into account.

 

The Centenary stock in its intended formation would have had 5 coaches between a pair of brake thirds (two thirds, a dining third, a restaurant first, and a compo) with a third and two brake compos on the end as the St. Ives and Falmouth sections. There would have been other non-Centenary stock behind that before the formation entered Cornwall. The Centenary brake thirds had huge luggage compartments and only 2 third-class compartments each, presumably to deal with the holiday traffic luggage.

 

Adrian