numbers/lettering on end of freight cars

[Mike Boucher]

I've been building some British Prototype freight stock in 7mm for a while, and I've never put any lettering on the ends of the various cars.  I've not seen anything in the instructions for the kits (slaters, parkside, connoisseur, and D&S) which suggest there should be lettering/number on the ends.  Nor have I seen pictures which show lettering on the ends.

 

Over in the 7mm+ forum, there's a thread which shows a completed models of a SR cattle van, and there's both lettering and numbers on the ends!

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65848-my-first-foray-into-the-senior-gauge/

 

However, in that same thread, there's a completed SR 8 plank open wagon, and nothing on the ends.

 

Both are from Parkside Dundas kits, so a quick look at their web site, the photos clearly show the only model with end numbering/lettering is the cattle van.

 

Now that we have all the background, the simple question I have is:

 

How common (or uncommon) was it for there to be end lettering/numbering on rolling stock during the post-grouping but pre-nationalization stage?  Why would some cars have it, but others not?

 

Thanks!

[Oldddudders]

I've just looked through a learned tome on wagons - Southern Wagons Vol 4 - and found that the only examples with end "reporting marks" were ferry-vehicles (i.e. they went across the English Channel), gunpowder vans, containers - and cattle vans. Other than that, not a sign.  

[buffalo]

A quick flick through Southern Wagons vol1 (LSWR and S&DJR) reveals several examples of ex-LSWR cattle wagons in the 1920s with 'SR', number, 8/10 Tons, and tare weight in smaller letters figures arranged vertically on the left hand side of the ends. One later example in 1947 shows 10T, number and tare in the smaller characters typical of the period on the lower four planks of the left side of the end. One example from LSWR days has just the number, though it is not visible on other pre-grouping photos. No other types of wagons in this volume show end markings.

 

Nick

[Nick Holliday]

I think the reason that cattle wagons had the numbers on the ends was down to the pre 1920's practice of applying large quantities of lime wash to clean the interior, which usually covered the outside as well, obscuring all markings there, so the end was the only place where they might stay visible.

I am sure that various pre-grouping lines had numbers on the ends, and the practice might have lingered after grouping, and certainly some of the private owners had the numbers repeated on the ends, including Stephenson Clarke, who had an enormous fleet of wagons.  If you check the Parkside Dundas website they have several pre-painted wagons with numbers on the end, which would have been in service in the 1930's.

[buffalo]

I think the reason that cattle wagons had the numbers on the ends was down to the pre 1920's practice of applying large quantities of lime wash to clean the interior, which usually covered the outside as well, obscuring all markings there, so the end was the only place where they might stay visible....

An interesting thought, but bear in mind that use of lime ended in the twenties and the lettered ends persisted at least until nationalisation. Also, some of the writing on the ends on the examples I mentioned above was on the lower three planks, the area where lime wash tended to be concentrated. On the other hand, when the GWR lettered the ends of their cattle wagons, the lettering was usually quite high up.

 

Nick

[Nick Holliday]

An interesting thought, but bear in mind that use of lime ended in the twenties and the lettered ends persisted at least until nationalisation. Also, some of the writing on the ends on the examples I mentioned above was on the lower three planks, the area where lime wash tended to be concentrated. On the other hand, when the GWR lettered the ends of their cattle wagons, the lettering was usually quite high up.

 

Nick

I suspect that old habits died-hard.

Looking at others of the Big Four I cannot find any signs of the LMS or LNER putting numbering or lettering on the ends of wagons.  The GWR, however, had a livery specification in 1923 that required the number to be repeated on the end, with notes as to location if the wagon was vacuum fitted or not.  According to Atkins etc. the numbering was dropped by the end of the twenties, so presumably would not appear on a GW wagon with the smaller lettering that came in in the early thirties. (As an off-topic mini-rant, why do so many early BR modellers think it is correct to feature a raft of pristine SR or GWR vans in the large lettered livery? Bright PO wagons are baad enough, but they at least were being painted in all their glory up to and after the outbreak of WW2, whereas the last newly painted large lettered wagon would have appeared several years before that. Rant over!)

Also slightly off-topic, it is interesting to note that a number of pre-grouping companies, for most or all of their existence, did not paint the wagon number on the side at all, but relied on the cast iron numberplate fixed to the solebar.  This  must have been a nightmare for the poor number-takers, especially when the wagon was up alongside a platform, or had the drop door open, so that might be why most of these companies repeated the number on the end, sometimes using a small cast plate.  The LNWR, L&YR and NBR amongst several others all followed this practice.

As I noted earlier, a significant number of Private Trader coal wagons had numbering and/or lettering on the ends.  A quick look at a couple of Turton's books suggested that perhaps one in twenty or so companies went for this, but as some of them were large stock holders, such as Stephenson Clarke and Cambrian Collieries, the proportion of wagons might be higher, but it is difficult to tell, as photos showing the ends clearly are few and far between.

Oil tank wagons, on the other hand, seem to feature end numbering on almost every example, certainly all the big oil producers, Shell, Esso, BP and National did so.  Perhaps the large expanse of plating was irresistible!

[Mike Boucher]

Interesting info.  I'm glad to hear my GWR and LMS vans without end lettering are reasonably accurate.  I'll have to trust the instructions, and only put end #s on if they explicitly say to.

 

But the info about P.O. rolling stock got me thinking.  I've got 8-10 Slaters' PO wagons of various paint schemes.  I wonder how many should have end #s.

 

I also did a quick google search for Saxa salt vans, as I recently finished a Slaters one of those.  and lo and behold, there's a photo of one in a museum with an end number!

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10100.htm

 

Looks like I have to do a little numbering on that.  Good thing the weather hasn't been nice enough for me to weather mine yet...  Hope I can find the transfers sheet!

[buffalo]

...The GWR, however, had a livery specification in 1923 that required the number to be repeated on the end, with notes as to location if the wagon was vacuum fitted or not.  According to Atkins etc. the numbering was dropped by the end of the twenties, so presumably would not appear on a GW wagon with the smaller lettering that came in in the early thirties.

Yes, but end numbering of GWR wagons and lettering and numbering of their cattle wagons didn't start in 1923. It goes back to the cast plate days (1894-1904) at least. Unlike the LSWR/SR examples I mentioned above, on most GWR cattle wagons, both the side and end lettering was above the side and end slots in areas that many photos show were not normally plastered with lime wash.

 

Nick

 

ps. there's a great deal more that could be said about GWR practice, but Mike's original question was about the SR.

[Mike Boucher]

ps. there's a great deal more that could be said about GWR practice, but Mike's original question was about the SR.

 

 

Well, my question was more general than just SR.  The first example of end lettering I saw was the SR cattle van, but I was wondering how prevalent it was across any of the big four...