Front and rear lamps on a GWR Autotrain

[nickwood]

I'm looking for some guidance on the placement of lamps on the loco and autocoach used on a terminus to fiddle yard layout. The train will run coach first into the station and obviously loco first to the fiddle yard. 

 

The options as I see it are;

 

1) Have a single lamp headcode on the autocoach and tail lamp on the loco.

2) Have a single lamp headcode on the loco and the tail lamp on the loco.

3) Have a single lamp headcode on both autocoach and loco

 

Whatever lamps are used it will be a compromise and will only be correct in one direction of travel for 1 & 2.

Option 3 will be incorrect in both directions because there would be no tail lamp but it would be correct at the front in both directions of travel.

 

My gut feeling is to go for option 3 but I thought I would canvass opinion first. 

 

 

[Neal Ball]

Can you get a bi-coloured LED? - assuming you are using DCC?

[nickwood]

Can you get a bi-coloured LED? - assuming you are using DCC?

 

Hi Neal, no plain old DC I'm afraid

Edited March 18, 2013 by nickwood

[Miss Prism]

White light on whatever went forward, red light on whatever was in the rear.

[nickwood]

White light on whatever went forward, red light on whatever was in the rear.

 

Yes I appreciate that, but maybe I didn't explain myself well as it doesn't answer the question I'm afraid.

 

I can't turn the engine (or the coach) after it has reached the terminus so it has to run back in the same formation in the opposite direction, so what I'm after is the best compromise for positioning the front and rear lamps. i.e should I have it correct in one direction only and if so which one or should I just have front lamps at both ends???

Edited March 18, 2013 by nickwood

[Neal Ball]

Hi Neal, no plain old DC I'm afraid

 

In which case, try two lamps hidden out of sight, red & white, leading to a fibre optic housed in the lamp.

 

Sorry, best I can suggest.

[nickwood]

Thanks for your help Neal but I'm really not interested in lighting the lamps just where is best to put them ??

[westerner]

Personally Nick I would go with your option 3. And the if you are going to take photos make sure you take them from the front of the way the train is upposed to be travelling

 

.If you wanted to be accurate try and make the lamps demountable by putting a smal loop of fine wire on the side of the lamp so that it can hang on the lamp irons and then alter them when the train is in the station. 

[Miss Prism]

Turn the lamps off and pretend it's daytime?

[The Stationmaster]

The only problem you face if if you either use illuminated lights (bi-colour LED as already suggested) and/or run trains 'at night' or have a tunnel.  Otherwise you're laughing because on the engine the lamp - during daylight - goes on the same bracket be it a headlamp or a tail lamp and of course the same happens on the trailer.  However if the lamos are illuminated you do have a  problem as when the tail lamp is on the engine end it goes on a different bracket from its position when the engine is leading.

 

Simplest answer of all is to have the engine between two trallers (and keep it like that for shunting at teh station and confound all the 'experts' who will tell you 'that's wrong' when it was in fact quite permissible.

[kevinlms]

Yes I appreciate that, but maybe I didn't explain myself well as it doesn't answer the question I'm afraid.

 

I can't turn the engine (or the coach) after it has reached the terminus so it has to run back in the same formation in the opposite direction, so what I'm after is the best compromise for positioning the front and rear lamps. i.e should I have it correct in one direction only and if so which one or should I just have front lamps at both ends???

Have a track that goes beyond the ever present (in models anyway) road bridge/tunnel mouth, where the train can be hidden, then with the aid of a cassette or whatever, replace it with an identical model, except for the lamp arrangement. When it comes back, it'll be correct. Now take the first model up the the FY end & repeat.

 

A question, I've always wondered. What do you GWR modellers do with a Toad, in such circumstances? How do they get turned, otherwise what's the point of a single ended vehicle?

[Ozexpatriate]

I understand that from 1903/04 to 1936, all GWR lamps had a red lantern case, having been black before then. After 1936 white lantern cases were used for the headcode.

 

Presumably there was a red filter/lens for the tail-lamps prior to 1936 to produce a red aspect. I understand that the headcode showed a white aspect at night - irrespective of the case.

 

Was a red lantern case used for the tail-lamp after 1936?

Turn the lamps off and pretend it's daytime?

Does this still work after 1936? It would still be a problem if the tail lamp lantern case was red. Edited March 19, 2013 by Ozexpatriate

[Il Grifone]

Surely the problem is that head and tail lamps are in different positions, which can't be solved with bicolour LEDs or fibre optics?

 

The question asked is which incorrect compromise should be adopted. My personal choice would be head lamp on the loco and tail on the coach*, as this allows the loco to correctly work other (passenger) trains. Other solutions are removable lamps, as already suggested, or just leave them off (which would be wrong in both directions of course).

 

* The lamp could possibly be fitted on the centre bracket on the coach and represent the case of the guard not bothering to move the lamp??? I believe there was a red slide for use as a tail lamp.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Il Grifone

[Bulleidnutter]

Have a look at photos of Auto train workings. You might find, if the train was just working say Bourne End to Marlow. The crew & guard would have been lazy enough to run with both a red tail light on the central lamp bracket of the loco and a white headlamp on the top lamp bracket with just a single carriage tail lamp on the Auto coach.

[The Stationmaster]

Have a look at photos of Auto train workings. You might find, if the train was just working say Bourne End to Marlow. The crew & guard would have been lazy enough to run with both a red tail light on the central lamp bracket of the loco and a white headlamp on the top lamp bracket with just a single carriage tail lamp on the Auto coach.

But why bother to put two lamps on the engine when one would do the job?  Knowing just how 'careful' some of the crews working the Marlow Donkey could be when it came to hard work I would think they'd be quite happy to carry on with the one lamp at each end (as per the book) and not bother to put the red slide in or take it out during daylight.  after all as some of them were sufficiently 'careful' (on a regular basis) to not bother to couple up the regulator control rod between the coach and the engine I don't they were anything but 'careful' when it came to lamping - and it would take an eagle-eyed or very closely inquiring visiting Inspector to suss out what was happening .

Edited March 19, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

Surely the problem is that head and tail lamps are in different positions, which can't be solved with bicolour LEDs or fibre optics?

 

 

But during daylight they aren't weren't (the engine lamp stayed on the top bracket all the time as either a headlamp or a tail lamp - the problem only comes after dark).

[Il Grifone]

I would have thought that in daylight you would not have been able to tell if the light was white or red,

even in the unlikely event the lamp was lit. These things had/have the illuminating power of a glow-worm.

 

I can remember a book my parents had many years ago ('The Black-out Book' IIRC), which had a cartoon of a lady asking one of the loco crew how they could see their way with such dim lights!

[Il Grifone]

But during daylight they aren't weren't (the engine lamp stayed on the top bracket all the time as either a headlamp or a tail lamp - the problem only comes after dark).

Maybe so, but surely the tail lamp should have been on one of the lower irons (usually but not necessarily LHS (platform) side).

 

In preservation I know

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GWR_autocoach.jpg

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gwr+autocoach&rlz=1C1RNNN_enGB385GB423&aq=f&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=3jZIUYyeK8WtO4emgZgJ&biw=1440&bih=768&sei=8GJIUezmE4rFPLj_gJgJ#imgrc=2iJYL7XmNvsAEM:;ivEpRRhw5vFcNM;http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5001/5308822191_73a6ce7938.jpg;http://www.flickriver.com/photos/27045884@N05/tags/greatcentralrailway/;386;500

 

And this is the real thing (though it appears to be a steam railmotor). No argument here there's only one iron! (which solves the problem). Presumably just arrived judging by the sidelamps and dark lenses. If it's 1915, she hasn't been repainted for a while, presumably from new.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gwr+autocoach&rlz=1C1RNNN_enGB385GB423&aq=f&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=3jZIUYyeK8WtO4emgZgJ&biw=1440&bih=768&sei=DV9IUcqsGcix0QWkroC4BQ#q=gwr autocoach&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rlz=1C1RNNN_enGB385GB423&tbm=isch&tbs=simg:CAQSEgl05Q6HqKqOBCHRafpelD0llg&ei=8F9IUYv1CM2Z0AXc7IDYAw&ved=0CAYQhxw&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43828540,d.d2k&fp=d2d8a3a6f223cfec&biw=1440&bih=768&imgrc=qX2g8pAIYuT6YM:;GfV2BiLRj3zDXM;http://www.cornwalls.co.uk/photos/data/media/6/GWR_SRM_45_Penzance.jpg;http://www.cornwalls.co.uk/photos/penzance-station-circa-1915-2207.htm;803;501

 

Re GWR Toads, I think the usual answer is don't bother (certainly for branch lines) and not a problem in the fiddle yard. On the real thing, possibly the van was turned so that the veranda was out of the prevailing wind???? It was supposedly so that the guard could keep an eye on the train. For some strange reason, apparently they were disliked by crews on other regions in BR days and blacked....

Edited March 19, 2013 by Il Grifone

[The Stationmaster]

Maybe so, but surely the tail lamp should have been on one of the lower irons (usually but not necessarily LHS (platform) side).

 

In preservation I know

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GWR_autocoach.jpg

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gwr+autocoach&rlz=1C1RNNN_enGB385GB423&aq=f&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=3jZIUYyeK8WtO4emgZgJ&biw=1440&bih=768&sei=8GJIUezmE4rFPLj_gJgJ#imgrc=2iJYL7XmNvsAEM:;ivEpRRhw5vFcNM;http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5001/5308822191_73a6ce7938.jpg;http://www.flickriver.com/photos/27045884@N05/tags/greatcentralrailway/;386;500

 

And this is the real thing (though it appears to be a steam railmotor). No argument here there's only one iron! (which solves the problem). Presumably just arrived judging by the sidelamps and dark lenses. If it's 1915, she hasn't been repainted for a while, presumably from new.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gwr+autocoach&rlz=1C1RNNN_enGB385GB423&aq=f&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=3jZIUYyeK8WtO4emgZgJ&biw=1440&bih=768&sei=DV9IUcqsGcix0QWkroC4BQ#q=gwr autocoach&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rlz=1C1RNNN_enGB385GB423&tbm=isch&tbs=simg:CAQSEgl05Q6HqKqOBCHRafpelD0llg&ei=8F9IUYv1CM2Z0AXc7IDYAw&ved=0CAYQhxw&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43828540,d.d2k&fp=d2d8a3a6f223cfec&biw=1440&bih=768&imgrc=qX2g8pAIYuT6YM:;GfV2BiLRj3zDXM;http://www.cornwalls.co.uk/photos/data/media/6/GWR_SRM_45_Penzance.jpg;http://www.cornwalls.co.uk/photos/penzance-station-circa-1915-2207.htm;803;501

 

Re GWR Toads, I think the usual answer is don't bother (certainly for branch lines) and not a problem in the fiddle yard. On the real thing, possibly the van was turned so that the veranda was out of the prevailing wind???? It was supposedly so that the guard could keep an eye on the train. For some strange reason, apparently they were disliked by crews on other regions in BR days and blacked....

There appears to have been no Instruction regarding where a tail lamp should be placed on an auto trailer - so no problem in leaving it on the centre bracket (i.e. the headlamp position) all the time if it was a dual purpose lamp with a red slide.  Usually it was fairly easy to tell a tail lamp because the red in the bullseye showed up from some angles but if a red slide was used it didn't show up when unlit although if you were really keen eyed you could pick out the top of the slide and thus know if was in the right place - but not something most Signalmen could tell on a passing train  .  

 

Incidentally correctly trimmed and adjusted head and tail lamps were clearly visible from quite a distance and would even show up in daylight depending on the level and angle of the sun and cloudiness/shade etc.

 

As far as freight brakevans (Toads) were concerned there appears to have been no hard & fast rule about which way round they should be formed or about turning them - in fact on our branch trip either coming in or going out the van spent 50% of the trip with the verandah at one end and the other 50% with it at the other end as the train reversed halfway through its journey - so whatever you do is correct.  The only problem with verandah leading was for Signalmen observing sidelamps but, again, I've never come  across an Instruction or indeed a Rules query relating to that little problem.  GW vans were of course banned from traffic use in late 1965/early '66 on safety grounds because there was only one way out in the event of trouble and that might also be why they were not so welcome on lesser parts of the railway.  However the other side of that coin was that they were far, far, less draughty than BR standard vans which always meant a search for as much newspaper as possible when they the latter were being prepared - not just to light the stove but also to jam in all the cracks and crevices and around the door in order to try and stop the draughts (which made them very unpopular with those Guards who'd been used to Western vans).

[Il Grifone]

I did read somewhere that the lack of draughts was appreciated elsewhere, but the brake being out on the veranda was not.

 

I suppose the lamps were quite adequate at night. After all the same type of lamp was used in signals. There was also less stray light about.

[nickwood]

Thank you all for your thoughts and input.

 

It seems to me that the most pragmatic way of approaching this is to have a lamp centrally on the Autocoach (as tail or headlamp) and a lamp either on the central footplate postion on the loco to denote a tail lamp or on the top lamp iron to denote the head lamp. Perhaps the later would be the better option.

 

Interesting also that the discussion developed towards brake vans as that was going to be my next question although my own thoughts would be to model tail lamps at both ends on an end to end layout.  

[The Stationmaster]

Thank you all for your thoughts and input.

 

It seems to me that the most pragmatic way of approaching this is to have a lamp centrally on the Autocoach (as tail or headlamp) and a lamp either on the central footplate postion on the loco to denote a tail lamp or on the top lamp iron to denote the head lamp. Perhaps the later would be the better option.

 

Interesting also that the discussion developed towards brake vans as that was going to be my next question although my own thoughts would be to model tail lamps at both ends on an end to end layout.  

The loco lamp should be on the upper bracket (i.e. at the base of the chimney or on top of the bunker - depending on which end of the loco is leading) as it is then correct for both the headlamp and the daytime tail lamp position.

[Sasquatch]

Use the red painted lanterns. Then it won't matter too much which lens is where and they do really look the part on an auto trailer! Just a suggestion.