Converting 4CEP to 4TC (& 4REP later?)

[Bulleidboy]

Hello All

 

Having followed, and been inspired by, the excellent EMU threads from Brian Kirby & Colin Parks my thoughts have turned to how practical it would be to make a 4TC from a Bachmann 4CEP and some Mk1 bodies.

 

The TBS can be easily made from a BSK by filling in the window in the guard's compartment and the TFK from a Mk1 FK.  The two DTSO can be made from seven compartments of a SO (either Mk1 or 4CEP), cut & shut with sections for the door that opens into the eighth compartment and also the cab section (both from the 4CEP).  This does mean that I'll need to give some thought to making all of the window frames match but that can wait.

 

So, I've made a start using a spare set of 4CEP bodies courtesy of Kintbury Jon (at least then I still have a complete 4CEP if the butchery doesn't work!).

 

Cab cut off 4CEP DMBSO and the front bodyside edges thinned and a lip filed on the inside (just about visible) so that an MJT cast cab can be fitted:

 

Cab temporarily fitted (roof has been cut back though I didn't measure it accurately - but not to worry as eventually the complete cab will be cut off and a different roof used) and come across the first problem:

Though the front step on the cab is lined up with the bottom of the bodyside, the roof profiles don't match!

 

Conversely, align the roof and the step is too high:

 

In Brian's thread the cast cabs that came with his S Pride kit appear to match the roof profile - perhaps the Bachmann and S Pride roofs have a slightly different profile?

 

I'd be grateful for any comments / suggestions to help resolve this problem but suspect that I may have to accept the steps being about 1mm too high.

 

Mike

[Colin parks]

Hi Mike,

 

I have had a look at your proposed, well started project.  I don't mean to criticise the aims of what you are trying to do, but  one thing springs to mind: why is the 4 CEP needed at all?  It has all the wrong bogies for a 4TC and for that matter, a 4 REP too. By the looks of things though, it is too late to save the 4 CEP now!

 

I made a 4 CIG from four Bachmann Mk.1 coaches with the (almost) correct B4 bogies and scratch-built sides as you probably already know.  That might be what you have for your 4 TC in terms of coaches, I do not know. Whichever way you go about it, you will need to pay attention to the doors and quarterlights at the cab ends of the 4 TC's DTSOs.  I do believe Ceptic has dimensions for this.  Brian Kirby should be able to help with basic dimensions too. If I recall, there are subtle differences in positions of doors and windows between the 4  CIGs, REPs and TCs in this area.

 

Re. the fit of the cab,  I'd put money on the Bachmann model as being dimensionally correct, but have you actually  got a 4TC type cab from MJT?  Even if it is, the MJT cabs were made to be compatible with their etched 4 CIG sides, which are much thinner than a plastic Bachmann coach side.  The only remedy to make the  MJT cab front fit the Bachmann body would be to add filler at the top and round it over to form the domed top.  If you line up the cab front castings, as they are with the top of the roof,  your cabs will not only have the steps out of alignment, but the cab front windows will end up to high as well.

 

Good luck!

 

Colin

Edited April 9, 2013 by Colin parks

[Gwiwer]

Again not wishing to pour scorn on the worthy attempts to get on with some serious modelling but why convert at all?  The 4Cep is so significantly different from top to bottom and end to end when compared with a 4Rep, 4TC or 4Cig that even with the current bargain price from Hattons for some of those units making them attractive as "Christmas trees" there is a LOT of work involved and not a lot of the original left at the end.

 

But by all means keep us posted on progress - it may be an educational topic to follow.

[kintbury jon]

The advantage with using the 4CEP DMSO is that it has the seating bay with the door in the middle, something not represented on any other currently produced mark 1. A bit of cutting and shutting should work, particularly by joining bits at door frame lines.  

 

If you go down the REP route, the CEP TCK could be converted to a TBCK (as they did on the REPs) and i'm sure that a few of the later REPs had a 19xx series RBR that Bachmann have produced.

 

Good luck!

[Bulleidboy]

Hello Colin, Gwiver & Jon - thanks for taking the time to comment.

 

Firstly, to answer Colin & Gwiver:

 

To make a 4TC without "butchery" would mean using either MJT brass sides (I prefer to work with plastic) or a Southern Pride kit but neither of them offer the 4REP, so that would have to be a "cut & shut".  Hence I decided to look at using this approach for the 4TC DTSO - then if I was successful and I get as far as the 4REP its DTSO are identical.  If I don't use the S. Pride kit, then the underframe detail parts need to be purchased anyway, so removing those on the CEP isn't a problem and they can go in the spares box.  OK, I'll need to obtain the correct bogies but would need to do that anyway if not building a kit.

 

As Jon has pointed out, the only RTR item that includes the door (flanked by the narrow windows) opening into a seating bay is the 4CEP - so that was another reason for using the bodies.  Unfortunately Colin I don't have your skills so could never scratchbuild the sides!

 

I've had a good look at the cab again today; firstly the fit isn't as bad as I thought because the roof clips were broken at the cab end so it wasn't sat down properly on the body sides.  I think that a small layer of filler (as suggested by Colin) should work but won't be able to try this until later next week due to other commitments - will post again when I have more progress to report on.

 

Incidentally, the Bachmann body measures 33.9mm from bottom of sides to top of roof whilst both the Dart cab casting and a DC kits 2HAP measure 33.7mm.  If I've read "Parkin" correctly the dimension should be 8'4.25" ie 33.416mm

 

Mike

[Colin parks]

Ah, I can see your point now you explain it like that Mike.

 

Certainly plastic is a more easily worked material than brass.  Re. the windows, Pete harvey did a very nice set for the 4 CIG which are of the same design (but not numbers) as the 4 TC's. 

 

As for the cab ends, it looks like filler is the only option - unless you build up the height with lots of low-melt solder I suppose.  I'm sure that the cab front window seals are the same height as the bottom edge of the cantrail water strip, if that is of any help in locating the castings. 

 

Here are some photos courtesy of Ceptic showing the difference between various EMUs with this type of cab front :http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/51422-4-cig-for-newhaven-harbour/page-8  Post #37 has some very good photos of the cab front of a 4 CIG , which is the same as a 4 TC, by Tomstaf: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/51422-4-cig-for-newhaven-harbour/page-2

 

As for skills, by the time you have finished this conversion, you'll have plenty!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Bulleidboy]

Colin

 

Thanks for the above links - I'm sure I've seen them before when following your CIG thread but had forgotten about them.

 

Mike

[Ceptic]

Hi Mike.

 

My partially dimensioned driving end pic. of the 1963 stock from the Hornby 4-VEP Thread.

 

 

 

Probably, a tad late with this, but, for labour and time saving, how about using the Replica Railways' http://www.replicarailways.co.uk/spares-and-accessories/spares TSO & S body-shells & windows for the driving end coaches ?

 

 

 

Regards.

 

P.S.

Sometimes, at shows they attend, (see website) Replica are known to have 'Seconds' on sale at reduced prices. 

Edited April 11, 2013 by Ceptic

[Ceptic]

Hi Mike,

 

I have had a look at your proposed, well started project.  I don't mean to criticise the aims of what you are trying to do, but  one thing springs to mind: why is the 4 CEP needed at all?  It has all the wrong bogies for a 4TC and for that matter, a 4 REP too. By the looks of things though, it is too late to save the 4 CEP now!

 

I made a 4 CIG from four Bachmann Mk.1 coaches with the (almost) correct B4 bogies and scratch-built sides as you probably already know.  That might be what you have for your 4 TC in terms of coaches, I do not know. Whichever way you go about it, you will need to pay attention to the doors and quarterlights at the cab ends of the 4 TC's DTSOs.  I do believe Ceptic has dimensions for this.  Brian Kirby should be able to help with basic dimensions too. If I recall, there are subtle differences in positions of doors and windows between the 4  CIGs, REPs and TCs in this area.

 

Re. the fit of the cab,  I'd put money on the Bachmann model as being dimensionally correct, but have you actually  got a 4TC type cab from MJT?  Even if it is, the MJT cabs were made to be compatible with their etched 4 CIG sides, which are much thinner than a plastic Bachmann coach side.  The only remedy to make the  MJT cab front fit the Bachmann body would be to add filler at the top and round it over to form the domed top.  If you line up the cab front castings, as they are with the top of the roof,  your cabs will not only have the steps out of alignment, but the cab front windows will end up to high as well.

 

Good luck!

 

Colin

 

Hi Mike and Colin.

 

The end to body mis-match is down to the Bachmann body being approx. 1mm.too high, both from solebar to gutter and from solebar to top of roof. This page may offer some clarification. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/17158-Hornby-class-423-4-vep/page-16

 

The Replica body shells are nearer the mark, being 26.3 mm. from solebar to top of gutter and 33.3mm. from solebar to top of roof.

 

Regards,

 

Ceptic. (for Rivet Counters PLC.)

[Bulleidboy]

Hi Ceptic

 

Thanks for posting the link to the front end photo from the VEP thread.

 

I must admit that I hadn't thought about using the Replica coach sides and elongating the windows where the door enters into the seating bay - will bear it in mind for the future.

 

Mike

[Bulleidboy]

Time to show some progress since last week...........don't photos show up plastic dust that you don't notice beforehand!

 

Front end cut off the 4CEP SO to form the basis of the new DTSO

 

 

Mid seating bay door & windows removed from CEP DMBSO

 

Front cab section cut along door edge (hopefully this will hide the joint) and all three sections temporarily clipped to the roof (new slots made in the two smaller "offcuts") which will need to be trimmed back once the cast cab front is in place.

 

The cab section still needs cutting along the forward door edge and then about 3mm removing behind the cab side window before reuniting with the door section - as the door handle is at the front on the TC, I can turn this section round before glueing it back to the cab.

 

The first two sections have now been glued together with reinforcing plasticard inside the roof and sides and the joint will probably be filled tonight

 

 

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Hi Mike.

 

My partially dimensioned driving end pic. of the 1963 stock from the Hornby 4-VEP Thread.

 

P5180079.jpg

 

 

Probably, a tad late with this, but, for labour and time saving, how about using the Replica Railways' http://www.replicarailways.co.uk/spares-and-accessories/spares TSO & S body-shells & windows for the driving end coaches ?

 

P4111539 (2).jpg

 

P4111539 (3).jpg

 

Regards.

 

P.S.

Sometimes, at shows they attend, (see website) Replica are known to have 'Seconds' on sale at reduced prices. 

This is where a 3D printed cab end would come in handy. Useful for the VEP too.

[Colin parks]

This is where a 3D printed cab end would come in handy. Useful for the VEP too.

Yes EBD,

 

It would be about time there was nicely made cab front for the 4 CIG and 4 VEP.  It would be right for the 4 TC and 4 REP too.  The problem for a manufacturer would be: Do you make it to exact scale size or make it to fit something like the Hornby 4 VEP which isn't quite to scale, but might have a higher potential sales to those wishing to improve the 'face' of the model?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Time to show some progress since last week...........don't photos show up plastic dust that you don't notice beforehand!

 

Front end cut off the 4CEP SO to form the basis of the new DTSO

 

DSCN0755.JPG

 

Mid seating bay door & windows removed from CEP DMBSO

DSCN0756a.jpg

 

Front cab section cut along door edge (hopefully this will hide the joint) and all three sections temporarily clipped to the roof (new slots made in the two smaller "offcuts") which will need to be trimmed back once the cast cab front is in place.

DSCN0758a.jpg

 

The cab section still needs cutting along the forward door edge and then about 3mm removing behind the cab side window before reuniting with the door section - as the door handle is at the front on the TC, I can turn this section round before glueing it back to the cab.

 

The first two sections have now been glued together with reinforcing plasticard inside the roof and sides and the joint will probably be filled tonight

Hi Mike,

 

The pictures of the recent work on the driving trailer coach look promising.  It's a fiddly business to chop all these parts up I'm sure, but I can see you have thought the process through.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Bulleidboy]

Hi Mike,

 

The pictures of the recent work on the driving trailer coach look promising.  It's a fiddly business to chop all these parts up I'm sure, but I can see you have thought the process through.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Hi Colin

 

Thanks for the encouraging comment.

 

The various parts to make the DTSO are now assembled and primed - will post some pictures later today but need to re-size them first.

 

Mike

[Ceptic]

Yes EBD,

 

It would be about time there was nicely made cab front for the 4 CIG and 4 VEP.  It would be right for the 4 TC and 4 REP too.  The problem for a manufacturer would be: Do you make it to exact scale size or make it to fit something like the Hornby 4 VEP which isn't quite to scale, but might have a higher potential sales to those wishing to improve the 'face' of the model?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Hi Colin.

 

In fact, the Hornby VEP  is good, dimensionally. (Apart from the gangways and around the cab windows / cable recesses)  It's Bachmann's  EPB and CEP bodies which are too high, by approx. 1mm.

 

Cheers.

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin.

 

In fact, the Hornby VEP  is good, dimensionally. (Apart from the gangways and around the cab windows / cable recesses)  It's Bachmann's  EPB and CEP bodies which are too high, by approx. 1mm.

 

Cheers.

Oops!

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/17158-Hornby-class-423-4-vep/page-16

 

Apologies to Hornby.  I am confused by the body issue, having looked at your posts on the Hornby VEP above, I had assumed the VEP sides were too low.

 

All the best ( hoping I am not going to hijack the topic with too much debate on this ),

 

Colin  

[Bulleidboy]

The embryo DTSO sitting on a Bachmann chassis (obviously work to do on that later)

 

Followed by two shots of the front end

 

I cut the bufferbeam off the cast cab end and modified the end of the Bachmann chassis to suit.  It still needs more filler to match the roof profiles.

 

The primer has shown up a poor joint between the first & second seating bays (particularly on the nearside) - honestly it looked fine before!  When fitting the section with the door into the seating bay I left the sides attached to the inner roof section - perhaps for the other DTSO it would be better to just use the sides??

 

There are enough window sections left to be able to cut & shut the other driving coach but it will have more joints than this one.

 

Mike

[Colin parks]

Hi Mike,

 

The pictures of the DTSO look very good.  Once you have the cab front painted in yellow the difference between it and the roof will be negligible.  Are you painting the unit in plain blue?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Bulleidboy]

Hi Mike,

 

The pictures of the DTSO look very good.  Once you have the cab front painted in yellow the difference between it and the roof will be negligible.  Are you painting the unit in plain blue?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Hi Colin

 

Thanks again for your encouragement, I guess a few small imperfections will never be noticed while the unit is going round the layout.

 

Yes I am going down the plain blue route (with SYP) - at least there is nothing else blue in my stock so I don't need to worry about matching any manufacturers finish.  There speaks a man with a several catering car sets (re-built Tavern Cars, Maunsell Kitchen & Open 3rd, Maunsell Cafeteria) which have been in primer for over a year whilst I get my head round the closest match to Bachmann / Hornby versions of green).

 

Regards

 

Mike

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Yes EBD,

 

It would be about time there was nicely made cab front for the 4 CIG and 4 VEP.  It would be right for the 4 TC and 4 REP too.  The problem for a manufacturer would be: Do you make it to exact scale size or make it to fit something like the Hornby 4 VEP which isn't quite to scale, but might have a higher potential sales to those wishing to improve the 'face' of the model?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

It's true they are different, although by fiddling around with the CAD you could potentially come up with a version to fit each one. Isn't it amazing how much difference a mil or half a mil can make?

Edited April 28, 2013 by The Evil Bus Driver

[The Evil Bus Driver]

The embryo DTSO sitting on a Bachmann chassis (obviously work to do on that later)

DSCN0760.JPG

 

Followed by two shots of the front end

DSCN0761.JPG

DSCN0762.JPG

 

I cut the bufferbeam off the cast cab end and modified the end of the Bachmann chassis to suit.  It still needs more filler to match the roof profiles.

 

The primer has shown up a poor joint between the first & second seating bays (particularly on the nearside) - honestly it looked fine before!  When fitting the section with the door into the seating bay I left the sides attached to the inner roof section - perhaps for the other DTSO it would be better to just use the sides??

 

There are enough window sections left to be able to cut & shut the other driving coach but it will have more joints than this one.

 

Mike

This is starting to look fantastic.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Bulleidboy,

    Apologies, i've been off the radar for a few weeks, and have only just caught up with this project. It's all looking very promising, after all a 4TC is a very useful unit, but we all get stuck on the age old dilemma of how to go about making one. The Southern Pride kits aren't perfect, rather hit and miss in places, the MJT parts are better, but again a few faults creep in like the depth of the gangways (also used by SP), which does affect "the look". I went off the printed SP format ages ago, but i'm ploughing through my various kits to get them done, they'll never be showcase models, but will be useful "layout coaches/units". I've also got some MJT 4TC bits waiting in the wings, but if i had no kits and started again, i'd buy a Bachmann BSK, one FK and two TSOs (all on B4 bogies) and start carving the ends up, in a similar fashion to your conversion.

    I agree with Ceptic, all the Bachmann Mk1 type bodyshells are a tad too big and tall (their TPO is also too fat), but it's only noticeable when next to other people's stock and perhaps i'm being over-fastidious? Whilst in fastidious rivet count mode, are we sure those door-in-window side windows are exactly the same size as the suburban windows, i thought the latter were slightly broader? Somebody touched on the Hornby 4VEP, i still haven't bought one, but i am tempted to try and salvage one. Apart from the obvious faults, i have a theory that they modelled the cantrail guttering too low, which squashes the sides down and makes the roof too big. Look at the dimension between the guttering and the tops of the windows, i think it's too short.  I can't prove it yet, it's all from observing photos, i'll need to measure one up in the flesh. Carefully removing and replacing eight cantrails will certainly be a labour of love, or a hair shirt, depending on mood.

 

                                          Keep up the good work.

                                                            Cheers, Brian.

 

P.S.  Forgot to say, Southern Pride did do a 4REP kit, i've got one, but AFAIK MJT never did. 

Edited May 1, 2013 by Brian Kirby

[Bulleidboy]

This is starting to look fantastic.

Hi EBD

 

I'm not sure that "fantastic" is appropriate yet as there is still much fettling to do but thanks for the comment.  The end result may not be 100% accurate (especialyy in a photo) but I'm hoping that it will pass muster when on the layout....but then I've got to either build a 4REP to push it or buy a Dapol 73/1.

 

Mike

[Bulleidboy]

Hi Bulleidboy,

    Apologies, i've been off the radar for a few weeks, and have only just caught up with this project. It's all looking very promising, after all a 4TC is a very useful unit, but we all get stuck on the age old dilemma of how to go about making one. The Southern Pride kits aren't perfect, rather hit and miss in places, the MJT parts are better, but again a few faults creep in like the depth of the gangways (also used by SP), which does affect "the look". I went off the printed SP format ages ago, but i'm ploughing through my various kits to get them done, they'll never be showcase models, but will be useful "layout coaches/units". I've also got some MJT 4TC bits waiting in the wings, but if i had no kits and started again, i'd buy a Bachmann BSK, one FK and two TSOs (all on B4 bogies) and start carving the ends up, in a similar fashion to your conversion.

    I agree with Ceptic, all the Bachmann Mk1 type bodyshells are a tad too big and tall (their TPO is also too fat), but it's only noticeable when next to other people's stock and perhaps i'm being over-fastidious? Whilst in fastidious rivet count mode, are we sure those door-in-window side windows are exactly the same size as the suburban windows, i thought the latter were slightly broader? Somebody touched on the Hornby 4VEP, i still haven't bought one, but i am tempted to try and salvage one. Apart from the obvious faults, i have a theory that they modelled the cantrail guttering too low, which squashes the sides down and makes the roof too big. Look at the dimension between the guttering and the tops of the windows, i think it's too short.  I can't prove it yet, it's all from observing photos, i'll need to measure one up in the flesh. Carefully removing and replacing eight cantrails will certainly be a labour of love, or a hair shirt, depending on mood.

 

                                          Keep up the good work.

                                                            Cheers, Brian.

 

P.S.  Forgot to say, Southern Pride did do a 4REP kit, i've got one, but AFAIK MJT never did. 

 

Hi Brian

 

Originally I was thinking of using the CEP chassis for a 4EPB (with DC Kits body) and may try that in the future but then your thread got me thinking about a 4TC as a way of using the otherwise redundant CEP bodies.

 

I've made some SP coaches in the past but have never been really happy with the finish of the coloured sides (it looks slightly textured) and there is no way I'm going to mask the windows and respray as you have done - I'm sure I could never get the finish you have.

 

I don't know if the "door-in-window" windows are the same size as on a Suburban coach but have assumed that those on the CEP and TC are the same size - they appear so in Brian Gouldings book.

 

At the moment there is little progress to show on the first DTSO as I am doing some more filling and smoothing.  However a start has been made on the second one but this time (not having another spare CEP SK) it involves a little more cutting and shutting.  I did realise that by cutting the sides away from the roof it is possible to take the front four compartments from the CEP driving car and swap them to the other side so that the door-in-window section is at the front instead of the middle.

 

Will post a few pictures in the next few days.

 

Mike