Scale and gauge

[ianb3174]

I have been having a play with scales recently. I usually model in P4 but have a healthy interest in narrow gauge, in particular Metre, 3ft and 600mm.

Whilst musing on several layout plans I came up with the idea of using one gauge and scaling the models to suit. A moment with the calculator gave me some interesting results.

Using the P4 gauge of 18.83 I could effectively model some French metre gauge railways by modelling 1:53. By increasing the scale to 1:48 my 18.83 would work out almost spot on for Irish 3ft models. Happily coinciding with US O gauge.

At 1:32 my 18.83 become 600mm gauge, again a popular existing scale.

To this end I've built a short comparison test track for feasibility.

In the picture the three tracks left to right are 600mm using code 148 FB, 3ft gauge using code 82FB and Metre gauge using chaired track as in P4 but on scale sleepers.

The other two use superglued rail with cosmetic spikes (or at least they will in a scenic layout). The sleepers are hand cut from 1.5mm ply and glued to a foamboard base.

Clearly in 1:32 the tolerances in flange way gap and wheels will have to be relaxed somewhat but the two smaller scales should run excellently using P4 standards.

To me this satisfies my trackbuilding desires and does away with the need for a multitude of gauges for several scales. With cad/can and 3d printing nothing is beyond the modeller these days.

I'd like people's feedback on this, not just my choice of scales but the whole concept of bespoke scales. Narrow gauge modellers usually think outside the box more than standard gauge guys.

Do most of you still persevere with the safe 009 and 0-16.5 sizes?

[Kenton]

 

Do most of you still persevere with the safe 009 and 0-16.5 sizes?

Can't speak for the rest, but I do.

 

And, I guess it all comes down to:

1 - ability/desire to build track rather than the layout

2 - desire to follow a prototype (in every respect) while at the same time realising that usually not only means track but also every other detail.

3 - time - I think the reason why many do not follow the prototype is that need for everything OK track does not take THAT long to do in the overall scheme of things but just making the effort to get a gauge correct does mean more time building the stock and everything else that the prototype dictates. Sometimes narrow gauge is seen as the quick option when it is some fictitious "welsh" railway.

 

Oh, and in the larger scales and gauges the track is so much easier.

[hayfield]

Ianb3174

 

I think it comes down to how much scratch building you wish to do, worst being people and animals for me. By using a common or surported gauge you can obtain parts you dont want to make for your self.

 

I would think its much easier to alter the gauge to suite the scale. As for track building you could use P4 (or Em for instance)clearences within the gauge you require eg: 3' in 7mm = 21mm or 2'6" 17.5mm

[Southwold]

I'd love to be a perfectionist but I'd rather have a layout which looks reasonably good and that is well on the way to being completed. Being retired I have 'all the time in the world' but I won't be around forever, so I want to enjoy the fruits of my labours!

[HSB]

P4 wheels would be too narrow for anything much larger than S scale. Going very far from the established scales does create extra problems when it comes to obtaining vehicles and figures and other scenic bits and pieces. 

[Armchair Modeller]

In P4, the recommendation is to use 2FS standards for the very narrowest gauges (up to 2ft 6in, if I remember rightly), but P4 standards for everything else, as most 3ft and above gauges use standard gauge wheel and flange gap standards, near enough.

 

You are likely to run into problems with the wheels and flange gaps being too narrow for the wider narrow gauges, once you get much above 4mm scale.

 

OO9 etc are not just "safe" - they are practical, pragmatic solutions to the huge dilemma British NG modellers face - that there was no universal standard gauge for narrow gauge lines in the UK, so how do you run locos and stock from different lines together?

 

Like Peter Kazer, you would be very much on your own, building almost everything from scratch. His work is superb, but it must take huge determination to build anything, never mind the various layouts and prototypes he has tackled.

[ianb3174]

Thanks for the responses. I can appreciate those who want to 'get something running/finished' and those that like operation. The hobby is so varied which is why it's so appealing. This scale/gauge thing comes from my dislike of over scale track and rigid geometry. I love barely visible flangeways in level crossings, uneven track and no visible sleepers. My last 1:35 (16.5mm) layout had canyons to accommodate the OO flanges and annoyed me, hence this experiment. My mantra is that it should look realistic without an item of rolling stock in sight. I build small layouts so obsessing about small details is not a big issue.

Did I mention that I don't do electrics either? Just rc battery power with micro motors.

I like a challenge

[Hobby]

I'm another that currently use a normal "commercial"(?) scale/gauge in HOe and to some extent HOm... However in the past I've used 5.5mm and 16.5mm track to represent 3ft gauge, and I think that in NG 1:55 is the best compromise of size vs practicality... At some point I'll be going back to it...

 

If you think about it what you did in that OP is exactly the same as what the early narrow gaugers did in choosing 16.5mm and 9mm gauges in the first place!!

[Happy Hippo]

I'm building a garden line using 1.5" gauge track.

 

Not much in the way of trade suport for that!

 

Regards

 

Richard

[Hobby]

Depends what scale you are using, whilst there may not be any suitable track or chassis for 38mm gauge you could find that there are plenty of things available for the scale (people, etc)...

[Happy Hippo]

Hobby,

 

That is true if you know where to look. I'm using both 1:12 and 1:13.7 scales, so there is only really the dolls house market for some figures and ornate furniture. plus window frames if you want all your buildings to look like Georgian mansions. Also available are a couple of cars and vans, but they tend to cost more than a 4mm loco fitted with DCC sound! you can with care use 16 mm components for live steamers, but the end result is usually small loco that looks rather stunted.

 

I went down this route because I wanted to build much more of my own stuff as opposed to being able to buy everything off the shelf, as you can in the 16 mm world these days.

 

So I'm quite happy to potter with a brace of tippers and a battery electric loco.

 

I think there are two of us in the UK using this scale gauge combo, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

 

Regards

 

Richard

[Hobby]

"I think there are two of us in the UK using this scale gauge combo, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong"

 

Ah, a man after my own heart! I tend to move out of an area when it starts to get too popular, I did Irish 3ft back in the 70s but then it started to get popular so i moved into German HOe and have since moved further east! I'd rather do the unusual, though I tend to stick around the conventional gauges as I'm not interested in building my own mechanisms or track! At the moment I think I'm the only one actively doing a Czech HOe layout, though I know of one or two people who do have Czech stock...

[AMJ]

There was many idea about scales and guages for models on http://www.irfca.org/faq/faq-model.html as India has 2' 2'6" 1000mm and 5'6"

 

I have often considered 1/72 scale as there are many items available such as vehicles, military models etc.

 

Why stick to a railway scale as mentioned you could use scales used by other modelling fraternaties.

 

Dad has realised 1/76 is rather fiddly compared to 305mm:1'!

[Pacific231G]

I have been having a play with scales recently. I usually model in P4 but have a healthy interest in narrow gauge, in particular Metre, 3ft and 600mm.

Whilst musing on several layout plans I came up with the idea of using one gauge and scaling the models to suit. A moment with the calculator gave me some interesting results.

Using the P4 gauge of 18.83 I could effectively model some French metre gauge railways by modelling 1:53. By increasing the scale to 1:48 my 18.83 would work out almost spot on for Irish 3ft models. Happily coinciding with US O gauge.

At 1:32 my 18.83 become 600mm gauge, again a popular existing scale.

To this end I've built a short comparison test track for feasibility.

In the picture the three tracks left to right are 600mm using code 148 FB, 3ft gauge using code 82FB and Metre gauge using chaired track as in P4 but on scale sleepers.

The other two use superglued rail with cosmetic spikes (or at least they will in a scenic layout). The sleepers are hand cut from 1.5mm ply and glued to a foamboard base.

Clearly in 1:32 the tolerances in flange way gap and wheels will have to be relaxed somewhat but the two smaller scales should run excellently using P4 standards.

To me this satisfies my trackbuilding desires and does away with the need for a multitude of gauges for several scales. With cad/can and 3d printing nothing is beyond the modeller these days.

I'd like people's feedback on this, not just my choice of scales but the whole concept of bespoke scales. Narrow gauge modellers usually think outside the box more than standard gauge guys.

Do most of you still persevere with the safe 009 and 0-16.5 sizes?

Hi Ian

Just a thought but if the P4 clearances and wheel dimensions are exactly to scale for 4mm/ft standard gauge then won't they be underscale for narrow gauge in a larger scale?

I'm no expert on this but happen to have a copy of the Notes on Military Railway Engineering from 1940 and these give a flangeway for check, guard and wing rails of 1 3/4 inches for standard and 5 ft 6in gauge but 1 5/8 inches for metre and 3ft 6in gauge. That's slightly smaller than for SG but not as much smaller as the gauge.  Similarly looking at wheel profiles they generally get smaller for narrower gauges but again not by anything like as much as the reduction in gauge. Even without a scale reference narrow gauge wheelsets just look narrow gauge.

I don't know how much variation there is within a particular gauge but note that the metre gauge Baie de Somme railway runs old contractor's locos alongside fairly modern Swiss coaching stock so presumably things like back to backs, tyre widths and wheel profiles must be fairly consistent.