New year, new layout plan

[Karhedron]

Well Christmas did not bring me the cinema-sized HD television I was after (I guess Santa just couldn't fit it down our chimney).

 

On the plus side I did finally manage to negotiate an agreement with Mrs Karhedron for a small layout provided it can be tucked away somewhere safe until the boys have gone to bed. I have been planning an enlarged Minories style layout for some time however I don't think this project will be a goer until the house extension is finished.

 

As a result I am now looking at something more modest. I have a small 4'x 1' section of baseboard salvaged from an old layout which I can recommission. Although small this should be enough to do something interesting with in N gauge. It will also allow me to practice the techniques I hope to use on my final Minories masterpiece in a few years time.

 

The layout will be GWR/WR. I would like to be able to run both passenger and frieght services and fit the lot onto my 4'x1' board. Ideally I would like to be able to fit a small Prairie and B-set on the passenger side or about 6-wagons and brake on the freight side.

 

I have been inspired Etched Pixels' LLanast (a Welsh piano-line plank) and I think that something along the same lines should work well. My plan is to have a dairy in front of the fiddle yard with the running line entering under the usual overbridge arrangement.

 

I have a couple of questions. Does anyone know if 4' is long enough for something like LLanast if I use Streamline short radius points or will I have to settle for set-track points? Secondly, can anyone suggest any alternative layouts that will allow modest passenger and freight serivces on a 4'x1' board?

 

I am completely in the brain-storming phase so all ideas welcome at this point.

[shortliner]

Well Christmas did not bring me the cinema-sized HD television I was after (I guess Santa just couldn't fit it down our chimney).

 

On the plus side I did finally manage to negotiate an agreement with Mrs Karhedron for a small layout provided it can be tucked away somewhere safe until the boys have gone to bed. I have been planning an enlarged Minories style layout for some time however I don't think this project will be a goer until the house extension is finished.

 

As a result I am now looking at something more modest. I have a small 4'x 1' section of baseboard salvaged from an old layout which I can recommission. Although small this should be enough to do something interesting with in N gauge. It will also allow me to practice the techniques I hope to use on my final Minories masterpiece in a few years time.

 

The layout will be GWR/WR. I would like to be able to run both passenger and frieght services and fit the lot onto my 4'x1' board. Ideally I would like to be able to fit a small Prairie and B-set on the passenger side or about 6-wagons and brake on the freight side.

 

I have been inspired Etched Pixels' LLanast (a Welsh piano-line plank) and I think that something along the same lines should work well. My plan is to have a dairy in front of the fiddle yard with the running line entering under the usual overbridge arrangement.

 

I have a couple of questions. Does anyone know if 4' is long enough for something like LLanast if I use Streamline short radius points or will I have to settle for set-track points? Secondly, can anyone suggest any alternative layouts that will allow modest passenger and freight serivces on a 4'x1' board?

 

I am completely in the brain-storming phase so all ideas welcome at this point.

 

 

Just a suggestion, but would a "Box Street" type layout solve your problem? See Carls site http://www.carendt.c...late/index.html second down

 

In N you could extend the tracks to the left, and fit two platforms (or a platform and bay) and the right hand end (currently a warehouse), can have an extra turnout - like Hughs San Padilla http://www.rmweb.co....ontefract-show/ and become a dairy/goods shed or anything else. I haven't redrawn it in N-scale, but it should fit onto your 4' board since the original was in HO in 4'8??"

[MacRat]

Hello Karhedron

I'd say it could fit with short radius peco points if layed out diagonal. Although I think shunting might need some creativity. I tried to draw LLanast within the space you have available with locos and wagon test items. These tend to be larger than the real wagons. Btw, I used a class 20 as loco in the diagram. However, with the tight curves and steep angles of the setrack points it's easier to create a loop long enough to run round your train.

 

Hope this gives you some ideas?

Happy new year and modelling.

 

Mac

[Etched Pixels]

I have a couple of questions. Does anyone know if 4' is long enough for something like LLanast if I use Streamline short radius points or will I have to settle for set-track points? Secondly, can anyone suggest any alternative layouts that will allow modest passenger and freight serivces on a 4'x1' board?

 

I am completely in the brain-storming phase so all ideas welcome at this point.

 

In set-track Llanast is a bit under 3ft. Keeping the plan as is and using say Kato #4 points or Fleischmann set-track points (R4) would make it about about 6" longer if you also used matching more generous curves. I have a nasty feeling that in 4ft it would come down to a choice of

 

- Ability run around a single 57' coach (as with Llanast) but using nice electrofrog pointwork and with a bit more room for wagons and perhaps a longer loco

 

or

 

- Ability to just about handle a 2 x 57' coach train with set-track points. With steam I think the former is wiser

 

You'd need to try a track program and see - you may even be able to get two coaches and siding across the board if you angle or curve out across the board and breathe in hard...

 

 

 

I do like the dairy idea - shades of little branches like Hemyock and better explains the scenic view. You've also got a lot more depth in 1ft than Llanast which should help scenically as you can gently curve it all and get more space between the route out and the sidings..

 

 

LLanast is based on the Rev Heath "Piano Line" which was a little steam layout. See http://www.carendt.u...e61a/index.html

 

4 x 1 is also enough space (using set-track type points to get the angle although slightly less vicious ones than peco might work) to do some other interesting tricks. See the N gauge society ironing board layout contest booklet.

 

http://zeniv.linux.o...ngBoardComp.txt

http://zeniv.linux.o...ngBoardComp.xtc

 

has my entry but I can't reproduce the others as they are obviously not my copyright.

 

Carendt.us is woth a good read. The monthly scrapbook varies but it's full of gems and things to set the mind pondering and quite a few of the microlayouts will fit in N space at 4 x 1, or less.

 

If you can fit a temporary fiddle siding to the front at one side when running it that can also make for a lot more room (or at one end). This sort of idea - http://zeniv.linux.o...rbourBranch.gif

 

I shall watch with interest - a piano line dairy has cracking possibilities.

 

Alan

[Karhedron]

Many thanks for the suggestions so far, they have been really helpful (especially MacRat's trackplans ).

[Etched Pixels]

Hello Karhedron

I'd say it could fit with short radius peco points if layed out diagonal. Although I think shunting might need some creativity. I tried to draw LLanast within the space you have available with locos and wagon test items. These tend to be larger than the real wagons. Btw, I used a class 20 as loco in the diagram. However, with the tight curves and steep angles of the setrack points it's easier to create a loop long enough to run round your train.

 

Hope this gives you some ideas?

Happy new year and modelling.

 

Mac

 

You only need to fit the loco in the bottom right space btw. Llanast itself just fits a 24/25 (as in you've got under 1cm between the point blades and wheels when on the stops).

[Karhedron]

In set-track Llanast is a bit under 3ft. Keeping the plan as is and using say Kato #4 points or Fleischmann set-track points (R4) would make it about about 6" longer if you also used matching more generous curves. I have a nasty feeling that in 4ft it would come down to a choice of

 

- Ability run around a single 57' coach (as with Llanast) but using nice electrofrog pointwork and with a bit more room for wagons and perhaps a longer loco

 

or

 

- Ability to just about handle a 2 x 57' coach train with set-track points. With steam I think the former is wiser

 

You'd need to try a track program and see - you may even be able to get two coaches and siding across the board if you angle or curve out across the board and breathe in hard...

 

I see what you mean. I have had a bit of inspiration though. Modifying MacRat's middle plan (it looks really good laid out across the diagonal like that) I have moved the platform to the rear of the layout. This means that the platform can now share a bit of the run-round loop to save space. Can anyone see a problem with this arrangement? I should now be able to fit a 2 coach train at the platform and in the loop.

 

 

This looses the bay platform but to be honest I cannot see such a small station have 2 passenger trains there at once. The advantage is that I can now fit a small goods shed in place of the bay. Any thoughts on this re-arrangement?

 

Another idea I have had is to use streamline Y-points as these are about the same length as short points and may give a slightly more flowing appearance.

[shortliner]

A sudden thought for a very small platform with a bay - http://www.carendt.u...e59a/index.html - go down to Maldon Market Hill.

Passenger and goods traffic in a tiny space

[Karhedron]

A sudden thought for a very small platform with a bay - http://www.carendt.u...e59a/index.html - go down to Maldon Market Hill.

Passenger and goods traffic in a tiny space

Impressive, that looks very good indeed. Stretched out to 4' long would have ample space for 2 57' coaches and a tank engine. Using a pilot rather than a run around loop is the same dodge as I was planning to use when I got round to my minories layout anyway so I don't see the harm in using it here.

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Etched Pixels]

Or just assume the loop is the other side of the bridge (ie the fiddle yard) no pilot needed

[shortliner]

Glad to be of help. There is an update, with a couple more photos, halfway down this page http://www.carendt.u...ge81/index.html

It has appealed to me since it first appeared. If I modelled UK , I think it would look superb as an end-of-line fenland branch (an extention of the Wisbech & Upwell perhaps) with tram locos or an 03/04 and moving sugar beet and cattle. It would also work as part of the Tiptree jam factory branch

[Karhedron]

Or just assume the loop is the other side of the bridge (ie the fiddle yard) no pilot needed

I suppose it depends whether I want an excuse for more shunting or less.

[Etched Pixels]

Doesn't have to be like that - you've got space to run the loop into the fiddle yard and operate it "properly" as an out of sight loop one end. Also saves the hassle of re-railing stuff in the fiddle yard all the time

[Karhedron]

I am struggling to fit all the things I wanted into a board just 4' long. The eternal complaint of modellers I guess.

 

I do have an extra 2'x1' board that I could bolt on the end to make a fiddle yard. This would give me 6' in length which should be far more generous. On this basis I have tinkered with Iain Rice's version of Minories to produce the following terminus plan.

 

ADMIN EDIT - plan removed for copyright reasons. This was a minimally altered copy of an Iain Rice published plan. If you want to use this please draft your own version of the plan and labels.

 

Compared to Rice's original I have dropped the layout to single track. I have also taken out the run-round loop. All shunting etc will be done using a second loco stabled just in front of the fiddle yard entrance. The plan shown will be the scenic section and about 3' long. This will give about 2' of platform which is ample for a B-set with a tank engine at each end.

 

I have also added a dairy which will probably be modelled in low relief at the rear (I have a soft spot for milk tanks for some reason). The setting is up for grabs. If I go for a more rural setting then the dairy will probably be a creamery dispatching milk. If I go for a more suburban setting it will be a bottling plant recieving the milk inwards.

 

I will probably also add a goods shed to one of the 2 sidings below the platform. Any suggestions or advice on which would be the more logical option? At the moment I think the siding closer to the platform would be the better choice leaving the outermost siding for coal as shown.

 

The plan is freelance but bears a passing resemblance to Uxbridge Vine Street. Does the plan have enough operational interest? Should I ditch it and persevere with trying to work with just the 4' board? Any comments welcome.

[Karhedron]

Just tweaked the track plan above slightly. Now the goods sidings come off after the points between the 2 platforms. This means I can extend the platform by an extra point length. Maybe enough for 3 coaches? (quart into a pint glass time)

[MacRat]

The plan shown in the previous post should already be capable for 3 coaches within 4 ft.

A rough calculation with the assumptions of one loco 140mm (class 37) + 3 coaches each 140mm (MkI) + 2 points in series each 140mm (medium radius) + 140 mm to clear the platform and points gives 980mm, which my converter says is 3,2 ft.

[Flying Pig]

Here's something similar in 4' using Peco code 55 mediums and wyes. The lower track running off on the right is imagined to be a goods loop that extends some hundreds of yards in the Up direction, with the rest of the goods facilities springing from it.

 

[Karhedron]

Here's something similar in 4' using Peco code 55 mediums and wyes. The lower track running off on the right is imagined to be a goods loop that extends some hundreds of yards in the Up direction, with the rest of the goods facilities springing from it.

Hi, thanks for the suggestion. It looks pretty good and I certainly like the idea of using Ys to make the plan flow more smoothly. I might try and keep the goods facilities on stage as I can show off stock when it is not being shunted.

 

Definitely trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot here.

[Karhedron]

OK after some tinkering I have narrowed it down to 2 variations on Iain Rices Minories plan. Both are single tracked and so lose on the cross-overs since it is not needed, I have also extended the upper stabling siding to become a dairy siding.

 

Plan A is close to the original with the coal siding split into 2 so that I can also fit in a goods shed.

 

Plan B drops the run-around loop in favour of a longer platform. This means all shunting would need to be done with a pilot..

 

So what do people think of the 2 plans? Is it worth keeping the run-around loop or should I go for the extra platform length? One thought that has occurred to me is that the plan without the loop would actually not benefit much from the extra platform length as the platform would need to be long enough for a loco at both ends so might not gain me much. Personally I am leaning towards Plan A but advice welcome.

[pirouets]

Plan A feels better to me. I know nothing about prototypical movements, but a loco coming of the stabling point towards the goods shed in B feels wrong, where as in A its in to the run round loop.

 

My one question that goes with this though is what sort of gap do you envisage between the goods shed and the coal staithes, as plan A makes that gap very small.

[Karhedron]

Plan A feels better to me. I know nothing about prototypical movements, but a loco coming of the stabling point towards the goods shed in B feels wrong, where as in A its in to the run round loop.

You are right, I had not considered that but it is a good point. Definitely leaning towards Plan A at this point.

 

My one question that goes with this though is what sort of gap do you envisage between the goods shed and the coal staithes, as plan A makes that gap very small.

That is a good question and the answer is "as large as possible". The plan as drawn was for a 00 layout about 6'6"x15". Iam working in N gauge on a 4'x1' board so there will be an element of stretching to fit. The platform will be a bit over 40mm wide and each track needs roughly 25mm once you take the 6' way into account.

 

Using these figures gives a fixed width of the track and sidings as about 200mm. I have 300mm to play with which means I will have 100mm left over. This will be shared between the half-relief dairy at the back and the space between the goods shed and coal siding. The Dairy will be built from Walthers modular parts so should need about 30mm of depth (assuming I am using the templates correctly). Even if I add in another 20mm for a loading platform that still means I can have close to a 50mm separation between the goods shed siding and the coal siding. This gives a scale 25' which should be plenty of space for getting a van or other vehicles down.

[Karhedron]

I have added a new sketch to avoid reproducnig copyright material.

 

 

This is a pretty good plan but I may replace the straight points with Ys to give a more flowing approach,

[Karhedron]

I have just noticed that with a small tweak, the track plan becomes almost a duplicate of Marlow. This is good news as I can be pretty sure it is realistic for the GWR and also signalling can be based on that prototype.

 

Here is the revised track plan and I am pretty happy with it. Comments or suggestions still welcome of course.