'The Waverley' stock, 1959

[Btourer]

Hello,

 

I would appreciate it if anyone could help me regarding the following questions about the coach set used on 'The Waverley' passenger services in the period of June - July 1959. I understand that there were two coach sets, one containing an LMS 12 wheel restaurant 1st, with the other utilising an LMS 12 wheel restaurant 2nd. 

 

I am mainly interested in the following set - BSK, SO, SO, SK, LMS 12 wheel restaurant 1st, FK, CK, CK, BSK.

 

My questions are as follows;

 

1. Does anyone know what the running numbers of the coaches in the above set were?

 

Answered - all photographs show maroon by this stage. 2. In the book 'Carlisle to Hawick' by Roger Darsley and Dennis Lovett on the page after the diagram of Steele Road station, there is a picture of 60037 pulling 'The Waverley' on 16th May 1959. It shows the fourth coach i the formation in crimson and cream livery. However, in 'The District Controller's View - The Waverley Route' by J.Hodge, page 33, both images of 'The Waverley' stock show all of the coaches in maroon livery. Does anyone know if the coaches in the above set would be all maroon by June 1959? To me it would make sense for BR to concentrate on applying their new liveries to premier 'named' trains first.

 

3. I understand that BR intoduced the Commonwealth bogies to the MK1 stock in 1958. From my research of photos it appears, however, that all the Mk 1 vehicles in the rake during this period ran on BR1 bogies. Could anyone give me a definitive answer on this?

 

The final two questions both relate to the LMS 12 wheel restaurant car;

 

4. Does anyone know if the Comet Models kit - http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/modules/viewcatpic.php/7/941 - is the correct diagram of coach for this formation? I can't find any good pictures of the coach in any of my books.

 

Answered, see comment by JeremyC below. 5. From what I understand the ex LNER Gresley and Thompson gangwayed coaches, and the BR Mk1 coaches were fitted with buckeye couplers, LMS stock was not. Were any modifications made the the above car, or would it have continued to run coupled the the Mk1 stock by screw link couplers?

 

Thanks in advance for any information that could help.

['CHARD]

Shameless bounce...

 

There are a few on here that may be able to shed a little light on the rake you describe.   The standard work, Parkin's book on MkIs has the info about the first batches to be fitted as new with CW bogies, if I can locate my copy later I'll see what the position was.  My rule of thumb is that as early as summer '59 on the Waverley, BR1s would predominate on MkIs.

[Btourer]

Thanks 'Chard.

I think I have an answer to question number two now. I've noticed that the picture in that book is the only one I can find with a picture of a crimson and cream coach. Perhaps it was a temporary replacement for a hot box or similar on the usual coach? With the lack of evidence to the contrary it looks like it is not part of the usual rake.

I also have another question regarding the Second Opens, does anyone know if they were of the 2+2 or the 2+1 diagram? Answered - see comment by JeremyC below.

[JeremyC]

According to the Passenger Train Marshalling Book for 1959 the SOs were 64 seat which means 2+2 seating. Information I have for 1965 shows the SO marshalled next to the diner being a 48 seat vehicle i.e. 2+1.

 

Re question 5 in your original post as far as I know the only thing done to the LMS diners was the fitting of gangway adaptors to allow their British Standard ganways to join to the Pullman type on BR standard coaches. Gangway adaptors weren't a modification as they could be fitted/removed without workshop assistance [though the word easy apparently doesn't apply!].

 

The booklet mentioned above shows the set with the Restaurant Second as having a Composite Open in it. This has been discussed in the past and the conclusion was that it was also a LMS vehicle there being no BR Standard Composite Opens.

 

The formation of that train was: BSK + SK + 2 SO + RS + CO + FK + CK + BSK. [The SOs are shown as 64 seat]

 

Jeremy

[Btourer]

Jeremy,

 

Thanks very much for answering some of my questions for me, it looks like that's 2, 5 and my additional question answered, and as 'Chard suggested it looks like all of the bogies in pictures in '59 are BR1s, although as the locomotives feature as the main subject of the pictures it becomes difficult to see the detail on the further away coaches!

[asmay2002]

3. I understand that BR intoduced the Commonwealth bogies to the MK1 stock in 1958. From my research of photos it appears, however, that all the Mk 1 vehicles in the rake during this period ran on BR1 bogies. Could anyone give me a definitive answer on this?

 

Both parts of your statement are probably true - things don't change overnight.  A coach would not get a bogie change until it was next due in for overhaul (if then) and it would take years to change the whole Mk1 fleet.  In practice many coaches went straight from the Mk1 bogie to the B4 or retained the Mk1 until written off. .