Preferred height for Kadee couplers on UK 4mm scale models

[Pacific231G]

I wonder if anyone makes a generic swallow tail with no coupler, just a place for the user to attach their own coupling device. 

 

One might then adapt the generic swallow tail to a Kadee 15x series "scale head" coupler which is smaller than that used on the NEM 17-20 series. Also there are over and under mount Kadees available in the 14x and 15x series.

 

Also Bachmann makes a swallow tale knuckle coupler with no "wings" like the Kadee 17-20.  However it only seems to come in one size.  I have used it on some wagons and loco's to minimize the look of the Kadee NEM wings.

That's fine if the NEM pockets have some sideways movement but not if they're rigid. This was a problem Kadee would have had when designing their coupler for NEM pockets.

 

The standard NMRA pocket/gear box is wide enough to accomodate a centring mechanism and the post the coupler rotates on so Kadee's standard couplers have the shank and the fixed part of the coupler head as a single casting (or moulding)  . The NEM pocket is narrower and designed to hold the swallow tail rigidly.

This scan of an unassembled Kadee no 5 with its "draft box" (NMRA pocket) alongside a Bachman Ezimate and an NEM pocket shows the difference; the NEM pocket is narrower. The scan is a bit low contrast but I had to leave the scanner lid open because of the coupler pins.  I think most Kadee couplers for NMRA pockets now use nylon "whiskers" to centre them rather that the phosphor bronze spring device seen here.

 

 

The "Magnematic" principle invented by Kadee, and used by clones like Bachman after the patents expired, requires some sideways movement of the coupler head for normal coupling and uncoupling and a larger sideways movement for delayed uncoupling. To achieve this for fixed NEM pockets Kadee added an articulation just behind the coupler head and the wings accomodate the centring spring for this. The Bachman Ezimate is designed for NEM pockets with some freedom to move sideways (for example in a close coupling unit) so doesn't need the extra articulation.

 

I discovered this after acquiring a bunch of surplus Ezimates for a song at an exhibition. When I tried using them with some wagons fitted with rigid NEM pockets I found that they a) didn't uncouple properly and (b) tended to cause the wagons to derail. I could have used them with wagons fitted with close coupling units but found that the length of the Ezimates gave an excessively large gap between the buffers (though not as wide as the original hinged loop couplers the wagons came fitted with) I also found that they didn't work quite so well as Kadees but I might used them with stock fitted with close coupler units that mostly run in fixed rakes.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Passed Driver]

Hi All. Fitting Kadee to NEM pockets is all very well? apart from older stock which is Pre NEM pocket. That's when the problems occur..

Wagons are easier than carriages most of the time, okay I could go out and buy newer stock? But the stock I am interested in is no longer built new i.e. the Hornby "Bogie B Passenger Brake" ot the "Transfesa fruit van", and kits? Forget about them, I have purchased a Ratio Bogie B, but the bogies are so fiddly and don't have a NEM pocket. If I did N gauge ? Bachmann do a Bogie B, I had asked about doing one in OO? No chance " our competitors have already made one". But I digress. I am getting away from the thread,/background information If anyone can help? Please advise. Kevin

[Pacific231G]

Hi All. Fitting Kadee to NEM pockets is all very well? apart from older stock which is Pre NEM pocket. That's when the problems occur..

Wagons are easier than carriages most of the time, okay I could go out and buy newer stock? But the stock I am interested in is no longer built new i.e. the Hornby "Bogie B Passenger Brake" ot the "Transfesa fruit van", and kits? Forget about them, I have purchased a Ratio Bogie B, but the bogies are so fiddly and don't have a NEM pocket. If I did N gauge ? Bachmann do a Bogie B, I had asked about doing one in OO? No chance " our competitors have already made one". But I digress. I am getting away from the thread,/background information If anyone can help? Please advise. Kevin

Hi Kevin

 

I've got quite a lot of older pre NEM pocket stock that's fitted with Kadee couplers and there are several ways of doing it.

1. You can buy tension lock couplers as spares that come with an NEM pocket that can then be fitted under the floor of a wagon or carriage. You then just put the tension lock couplers aside and replace them with Kadees.  That would allow you to fit other types of coupler as well though some types do depend on the pocket being able to move from side to side.

2. If you're not intending to use anything other than Kadees then you simply buy the appropriate coupler and glue the draft gear box under the buffer beam. If you look at Kadee's website there are coupler and gear box combinations apart from their NEM plug ins that were specifically aimed at the European/UK  market where couplers shanks often have to be rather longer than for most N. American stock in order to clear side buffers.

 

My stock is European H0 so it was probably slightly easier as the underside of the vehicle floor is lower than with OO but fitting either NEM pockets or Kadee gear boxes at the right height (which is crucial) still requires a certain amount of butchery and possibly using plasticard to create a suitable base to which the relevant box can be fitted. If you're using Kadees I assume you have their coupler and trip pin height gauge which I think is absolutely essential (and not paricularly expensive) . 

 

There's quite a lot of advice and experience of fitting both types of Kadees- NEM and draft gear box- to various types of OO stock earlier in this thread.

 

3 There are makers like Keen who produce close coupling kits for OO coaches and these come with NEM pockets.

 

4. I was quite lucky with a lot of my wagons and locos  made by the original  Jouef and Meccano's HornbyAcho when a French enthusiast came up with resin and later etched brass NEM boxes that simply replaced the original couplers that were screwed to the floor. His operation has grown into a decent business YDModels (YDModels.com) and  I've often wondered whether there wouldn't be scope for a British OO equivalent. Did pre NEM pocket Hornby and Bachmann stock use standard fittings for their then tension lock couplers?

Edited October 1, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Dunsignalling]

Money where my mouth is time...

 

Still waiting to move house, but found a box with a few bits in...

 

Take two Bachmann BR Fruit vans and some Kadee #5 couplers.  The first attempt was to fix the box under the headstock.  I was able to use the Bachmann bracket to clamp the Kadee Box into position.  I used the #242 coupler box that snaps together  http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page242.htm

 

The results were promising, They would couple easily on a 24" radius curve and would run on 18" radius curves.  The gap between vehicles was much improved over the hook and bar coupler.

 

So far so good.  The only thing I didn't like was the slightly droopy coupler head.  I experimented with a small strip at the front of the coupler box under the shank.  It was difficult to get it tight enough to stop the droop, but at the same time keep the easy action for uncoupling.  I then had a brain wave (steady on now).  I glued the same strip to the top of the box at the rear.  Then when glued under the headstock the coupler box slopes up slightly towards the buffers.  The coupler head sits nice and square, plus the side to side action is unimpaired.

 

See the coupler box stuck directly to the underframe with a slightly droopy head

 

Now with the rear of the box packed slightly to slope the box, note the nice square coupler head

 

This is the view from above when on a Roco 888mm radius curve

 

The tilting of the coupler box also sets the trip pin just clear of the rail heads, as per kadee specifications.

You don't need to slope the box or (as I was doing) slightly bend the coupler shaft (risky, they snap if you apply too much force).

 

Just insert a #209 fibre washer into the #242 box before adding the coupler and lid.

 

Alternatively, you can add it after the coupler but before is a lot easier!

 

Stick with the Kadee item, the Peco (near) equivalent is easier to get but is too thick and stiffens up the action of the coupler.

 

(Not my idea, thanks are due to ejstubbs of this parish for the tip)

 

John

Edited October 1, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

I wonder if anyone makes a generic swallow tail with no coupler, just a place for the user to attach their own coupling device. chopping

 

One might then adapt the generic swallow tail to a Kadee 15x series "scale head" coupler which is smaller than that used on the NEM 17-20 series. Also there are over and under mount Kadees available in the 14x and 15x series.

 

Also Bachmann makes a swallow tale knuckle coupler with no "wings" like the Kadee 17-20.  However it only seems to come in one size.  I have used it on some wagons and loco's to minimize the look of the Kadee NEM wings.

You could always make your own by cutting the business end off a mini tension-lock.

 

The problem with fitting non-NEM Kadees to NEM mounts is that there isn't enough sideways travel for them to work reliably. The other snag is that if such a coupler is fitted that way, it is likely to stick out a long way past the buffers.

 

If it was that easy, Kadee wouldn't have needed to devise the #17 - 20 couplers, of which I must state, I'm not the greatest fan. I nowadays only use them if my preferred practice of removing the NEM gubbins entirely and using "proper" Kadees (usually #141 or #146) looks like being too much like hard work.

 

I have also tried the Bachmann equivalent but the single pivot means they won't achieve the "delayed action" uncoupling you get with Kadees. It sometimes works with one Easimate and one Kadee, but you can't depend on it.

 

John

Edited October 1, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Passed Driver]

Hi All. Fitting Kadee to NEM pockets is all very well? apart from older stock which is Pre NEM pocket. That's when the problems occur..

Wagons are easier than carriages most of the time, okay I could go out and buy newer stock? But the stock I am interested in is no longer built new i.e. the Hornby "Bogie B Passenger Brake" ot the "Transfesa fruit van", and kits? Forget about them, I have purchased a Ratio Bogie B, but the bogies are so fiddly and don't have a NEM pocket. If I did N gauge ? Bachmann do a Bogie B, I had asked about doing one in OO? No chance " our competitors have already made one". But I digress. I am getting away from the thread,/background information If anyone can help? Please advise. Kevin

[Pacific231G]

Hi All. Fitting Kadee to NEM pockets is all very well? apart from older stock which is Pre NEM pocket. That's when the problems occur..

Wagons are easier than carriages most of the time, okay I could go out and buy newer stock? But the stock I am interested in is no longer built new i.e. the Hornby "Bogie B Passenger Brake" ot the "Transfesa fruit van", and kits? Forget about them, I have purchased a Ratio Bogie B, but the bogies are so fiddly and don't have a NEM pocket. If I did N gauge ? Bachmann do a Bogie B, I had asked about doing one in OO? No chance " our competitors have already made one". But I digress. I am getting away from the thread,/background information If anyone can help? Please advise. Kevin

I thought I had Kevin, Have you been having internet problems too?  I was a bit confused because this is the same message you posted three days ago which I did respond to. I thought my reply must have gone astray but it is there as #178

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Dunsignalling]

Hi All. Fitting Kadee to NEM pockets is all very well? apart from older stock which is Pre NEM pocket. That's when the problems occur..

Wagons are easier than carriages most of the time, okay I could go out and buy newer stock? But the stock I am interested in is no longer built new i.e. the Hornby "Bogie B Passenger Brake" ot the "Transfesa fruit van", and kits? Forget about them, I have purchased a Ratio Bogie B, but the bogies are so fiddly and don't have a NEM pocket. If I did N gauge ? Bachmann do a Bogie B, I had asked about doing one in OO? No chance " our competitors have already made one". But I digress. I am getting away from the thread,/background information If anyone can help? Please advise. Kevin

Although Hornby have done more than one batch of Bogie Vans 'B', complete with close-coupling linkages and NEM pockets, they haven't made any for quite a while, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it revived for next year's catalogue. They aren't easy to find second hand, though (voice of experience ).

 

As for your other issues, don't even try fitting NEM Kadees to anything without pockets, that's what the #141 or #146 are for.

 

If you don't know what they are, full details are in the on-line Kadee catalogue www.kadee.com

 

John

Edited October 4, 2017 by Dunsignalling