Preferred height for Kadee couplers on UK 4mm scale models

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It's lovely malleable stuff, you can work it down very easily with a hammer and lump of steel as an anvil. I get all my code 5 and 7 offcuts from a friend in lead roofing - oh boy has he had a lot of work lately - and then wallop it to change its shape as required. Very therapeutic.

[BR60103]

When I was doing N gauge, Kadee (as they were then) supplied little springs to go on the axle ends of cabooses to provide some drag.

[47137]

When I was doing N gauge, Kadee (as they were then) supplied little springs to go on the axle ends of cabooses to provide some drag.

The springs sound like a good idea for all wagons on a layout with modest train lengths, and where the gradients are fairly mild. Like the light railway I keep promising myself. The foam block idea (Ramblin Rich, post #56 and others) might be better as a temporary fit, where you want to run models in longer trains like a club layout from time to time.

[br-nse-fan]

I just recently purchased a pair of locomotives from Rails, and just had the opportunity to take a look at them.

 

Surprise... surprise... the NEM pockets are not at the correct height.

 

Has anyone had any luck in fitting Kadee's to the older Bachmann 40's and 45's?  I've attached a couple photo's of the 40 below.  The 45 is setup similarly.

 

I knew I was in for trouble when I pulled the coupler out... that's what I call a step!

 

 

 

And my fears were confirmed when I lined the loco up with the Kadee height gauge:

 

 

 

And a wagon that lines up perfectly with the height gauge:

 

[brossard]

I had a similar problem with Bachmann Mk 1 coaches.  My solution was to drill and screw the coupling to the underside of the pocket.  I'm not familiar with the buffer beam of the diesel pictured so can't speak to collateral mods that may be required.  Another possibility is to discard the NEM bits and fit a #5 coupling.

 

John

[47137]

I have converted a wagon with a similarly high NEM pocket by taking a Kadee no. 6 coupler, crushing the pivot with pliers, and fixing it into the pocket with Devcon. This is not ideal, because the coupler only pivots where the pocket pivots; a correct conversion using a no. 18/19/20 has a second pivot in the knuckle itself ... but it does put the coupler at just the right height!

 

As long as the NEM pocket is a standard Bachmann one (do check this), there isn't much to lose ... you could try it and get a new pocket if it doesn't quite work out.

[BR60103]

This is probably tricky and I haven't done it yet.

The Kadee NEM shank should be at the same height as the top of the loop in the tension lock. (note: all NEM couplers).  It might be possible to trip the Bachmann coupler level with the top of the loop and then add the Kadee shank (or Marklin, or..) under it. It may work with a good glue or a delicate screw or there may be enough room to add a padding and fasten it a bit farther back.

Or take a standard NEM tension lock and mount the Kadee shank below it (with any required shims).

[47137]

This is probably tricky and I haven't done it yet.

It is easier than it sounds, you can tweak the height of the no. 6 coupler in the box while the glue sets.

 

One caution we haven't mentioned yet, is if you use a standard Bachmann or Hornby style NEM socket, and the forward-facing trip pin is a bit low and hits an obstruction at some speed, the impact can tear the box from its 'fish tail' at the narrow web.

 

If you can squeeze in a Kadee below a tension lock you would make a very useful dual-fitted locomotive.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Another option is to take the dummy frame off the bogie, and perform surgery to build a new correct height socket in the buffer beam. Thought about that for my class 40, and then...

 

...The Kadee NEM shank should be at the same height as the top of the loop in the tension lock...

...so I took an unstepped miniature tension lock coupler (a Hornby type which I don't use) trimmed it back to the platform at the rear of the loop, drilled a pivot hole and installed a Kadee no 5 head taken off the NEM shank they supply. No springing for the head as on the original shank supplied, but this doesn't matter; in service practically since the original release of Bach's 40, functions perfectly. When someday a class 45 joins the fleet, I'll either repeat this technique, or:

 

Cut down a no 5 pivot 'spade' as much as possible, reprofile the coupler pocket with a heated reshaped screwdriver reserved for the purpose, and wedge the lightly modified  coupler end into the abused pocket. That's become my standard technique for fitting a Kadee into Bachmann's overheight coupler pocket. Comes out bang on for height on the gauge.

Edited July 11, 2013 by 34theletterbetweenB&D

[Removed a/c]

It is easier than it sounds, you can tweak the height of the no. 6 coupler in the box while the glue sets.

 

One caution we haven't mentioned yet, is if you use a standard Bachmann or Hornby style NEM socket, and the forward-facing trip pin is a bit low and hits an obstruction at some speed, the impact can tear the box from its 'fish tail' at the narrow web.

 

If you can squeeze in a Kadee below a tension lock you would make a very useful dual-fitted locomotive.

Not sure if you are aware but the Kadee #6 has now been discontinued from the manufacturer. 

Edited July 11, 2013 by thebritfarmer

[Removed a/c]

I just recently purchased a pair of locomotives from Rails, and just had the opportunity to take a look at them.

 

Surprise... surprise... the NEM pockets are not at the correct height.

 

Has anyone had any luck in fitting Kadee's to the older Bachmann 40's and 45's?  I've attached a couple photo's of the 40 below.  The 45 is setup similarly.

 

I knew I was in for trouble when I pulled the coupler out... that's what I call a step!

 

IMG_20130710_090524_818.jpg

 

 

And my fears were confirmed when I lined the loco up with the Kadee height gauge:

 

IMG_20130710_090352_352.jpg

 

 

And a wagon that lines up perfectly with the height gauge:

 

IMG_20130710_090657_629.jpg

What we needs if for Kadee to make some cranked Kadees How does this tension lock compare to the Heljan 58 one. 

[47137]

Not sure if you are aware but the Kadee #6 has now been discontinued from the manufacturer. 

I bought and suggested the no.6 because the pack I have was only £2 ... now I know why! Almost anything with a centre-set shank would do for the techniques in the last few posts, though a no. 146 - which has a longer shank and a built-in spring - is very adaptable and is now my favourite for UK models.

[Budgie]

What we needs if for Kadee to make some cranked Kadees How does this tension lock compare to the Heljan 58 one.

Why should they? I think it would be up to Bachmann to make the cranked Kadee clones. It's not Kadee's fault that other manufacturers cannot get the standard height of a NEM pocket right.

[br-nse-fan]

What we needs if for Kadee to make some cranked Kadees How does this tension lock compare to the Heljan 58 one. 

 

The Heljan coupler is not as 'stepped' or 'cranked' as the one above.  The Heljan couplers are very close to being the correct heights, much like the Bachmann MK1 / MK2 coaches... but the ones that are on the Class 40 & 45 I have are waaaaay out.  I can take some pictures tonight if anyone is interested?

[47137]

The Heljan coupler is not as 'stepped' or 'cranked' as the one above.  The Heljan couplers are very close to being the correct heights, much like the Bachmann MK1 / MK2 coaches... but the ones that are on the Class 40 & 45 I have are waaaaay out.  I can take some pictures tonight if anyone is interested?

Photographs of particular models and solutions are always useful. While someone reading this thread may not have (for this example) a 40 or a 45, the ideas may well transfer to something they do have.

[Removed a/c]

Why should they? I think it would be up to Bachmann to make the cranked Kadee clones. It's not Kadee's fault that other manufacturers cannot get the standard height of a NEM pocket right.

Errrrr...........to make money?

 

I wasn't saying it was their fault. How many different types of couplers are being made anyway, Kadee alone must have at least 40 HO scale couplers. They all cater to different needs, why would a cranked NEM be any different.?

Edited July 11, 2013 by thebritfarmer

[br-nse-fan]

 

I wasn't saying it was their fault. How many different types of couplers are being made anyway, Kadee alone must have at least 40 HO scale couplers. They all cater to different needs, why would a cranked NEM be any different.?

 

 

But how much?  Would it be worth it to them?  From what I understand, it is only the UK market that has non-NEM standard NEM items, and mostly from just one manufacturer.  I don't believe the US uses NEM pockets (why would they when Kadee and the like have been the standard for donkeys years?) and I've never heard of European manufacturers not conforming to NEM standards.

 

The market for such an item would be very small indeed...  and on top of that, do you do 17, 18, 19 or 20? 

 

Lets take a look at RMweb users.  What is the percentage of us that even use Kadee couplers compared to some other form of coupler?  Even if we use that as a basis for figuring out potential sales, I think we'll find that it's just not financially viable to invest in such an item.

 

One suggestion I had posed in another thread, was for Kadee to make the knuckles available to *cough* Bachmann *cough* for fitting to a cranked NEM 'arm'.  The same issue would arrise as above.  Would it be worth it to Bachmann?  Probably not, and on top of that they have indicated that they have no issues with the heights, as they provide an appropriate coupler for the market in which the model was released to.

 

Unfortunately, I think we are stuck with the height issues until the manufacturers actually stick to the NEM standards for which they claim to be conforming to.

 

edit:

 

on an aside... one thing I have noticed, is that although they come under the wrath of the RMweb community for various issues, I have yet to find a single Hornby model that does not conform to the proper NEM standard.  All my  models have a perfect alignment with the Kadee height gauge.

Edited July 11, 2013 by br-nse-fan

[Removed a/c]

I am sure there are many more people out there that don't even use forums so numbers would be a hard thing to guess. 

 

I know just off the top of my head I have 20 pieces of rolling stock that I could convert with a cranked NEM. I would probably have more but have decided to no longer purchase items that have cranked tension locks. I would think I have a relatively small collection of rolling stock compared to others.

 

I have no idea what tooling costs would be but who is to say they even know about cranked tension locks? How did they know there was a market for NEM Kadees. 

 

As with anything if they don't here from us they won't make it, be it Kadees, locos, rolling stoc or whatever it happens to be. 

Edited July 11, 2013 by thebritfarmer

[br-nse-fan]

I don't believe it would be an issue to created a cranked NEM Kadee... the problem is that there is not even a standard height for the cranked ones... as seen above!  What height would they make?  LOL

 

I totally agree, and would love a cranked NEM Kadee, I just don't believe it'll ever become a reality, but am more than happy to be proven wrong!

[brossard]

Ah non standard standards, 'twas ever thus in our marketplace.    In a perverse way it almost makes UK modelling more interesting.  As far as Kadee goes, they make the #17 - 20 couplings but I had to buy a couple of packs of Bachmann T/Ls to get pockets (the ones issued with stock can and do break).  I daresay that when Bachmann et al initially introduced NEM type couplings the farthest thing from their minds was how they would work with Kadees.  To be fair though, in my experience it is a rare thing to find couplings at the wrong height these days.  I mentioned above a couple of work arounds that I use for the exceptions.  When I were a lad, I had to laboriously fit couplings with screws and perform some surgery.  Coaches were the most difficult but I was always successful.    My coach standard was #7 which were a bu**er to assemble so I'm not sorry they're gone.

 

John

[br-nse-fan]

I daresay that when Bachmann et al initially introduced NEM type couplings the farthest thing from their minds was how they would work with Kadees.  To be fair though, in my experience it is a rare thing to find couplings at the wrong height these days.

John

 

I agree, and that's one of the points I made above.

 

I've found that it's a mix of correct and not so correct heights when it comes to (specifically) Bachmann.  If it's a newly tooled or updated model, you are more than likely to get a coupler with the correct NEM height.  If it's an older model, it's probably a crap shoot.

 

As an example, the brand new Pillbox brakevan coupled up to an older tooling 16t mineral wagon.  The mineral wagon is the same one as seen in the Class 40 pics above...

 

 

(click the pic to have a closer view)

 

 

If it were too high, it would be easier to fix...  this will require significant surgery to repair, and as such, has been regulated to the bottom of the pile to have Kadee's fitted.

Edited July 11, 2013 by br-nse-fan

[Removed a/c]

I emailed Sam at Kadee to enquire about cranked Kadees. He did not know what a cranked tension lock was. I sent him a photo, and explained what I was looking for. He did say that it would have to be a new tooling and wasn't sure if there would be the demand for them. If it is something you would be interested in, drop him an email. If you don't ask you don't get. 

[Dunsignalling]

I agree, and that's one of the points I made above.

 

I've found that it's a mix of correct and not so correct heights when it comes to (specifically) Bachmann. If it's a newly tooled or updated model, you are more than likely to get a coupler with the correct NEM height. If it's an older model, it's probably a crap shoot.

 

As an example, the brand new Pillbox brakevan coupled up to an older tooling 16t mineral wagon. The mineral wagon is the same one as seen in the Class 40 pics above...

 

 

(click the pic to have a closer view)

2013-01-06_22-32-22_705.jpg

 

 

If it were too high, it would be easier to fix... this will require significant surgery to repair, and as such, has been regulated to the bottom of the pile to have Kadee's fitted.

Those are quite easy to do:

 

1. Dismantle wagon, remove weight from chassis and pockets from mounts.

 

2. Cut away NEM mount (Xuron sprue cutter ideal for the job) and ensure underside of chassis is filed properly flat.

 

3. Fit # 146 coupler in # 252 box. After checking the height is correct, top of box can be glued to chassis. Then add a screw to secure the two halves of the box. I use Kadee's # 256 nylon screws but anything 8BA-ish will do.

 

4. Snip the screw off flush inside chassis, replace weight (with lead if you want it heavier) and reassemble wagon.

 

Takes about half an hour to do the first wagon but if doing a batch probably three an hour once you've got the hang of it.

 

John

Edited July 12, 2013 by Dunsignalling

[47137]

Here is a photograph to show the conversion described by John in the previous post, this is a typical older Bachmann wagon chassis. I used the no. 242 gear box (this is the one supplied with the 146 coupler) ... the no. 252 gear box in John's procedure is about 1/16 inch shorter than the 242, so this would let you keep more of the original NEM box support moulding. I used an M2 machine screw and a nut to hold the box to the chassis. This particular wagon has some Gibson wheels ... if you intend to change the wheels, do this before you set up the couplers in case the diameter is different to the originals.

 

Richard.

 

[brossard]

I've been wondering what the #146 looks like.  Very much like a #5, which is my standard.  The difference appears to be a longer shank so the gearbox can be set back and is a bit less obvious.

 

John